3ringheathen

You can break down openings into a lot more steps than that. Two stage refers specifically to cell inflation. A good Cobalt will experience center 3 cells inflating first, then the outer 3 on each side. Note that I said a *good* Cobalt. Unfortunately, some do have problems that don't seem to respond well to simple fixes like smaller pilot chutes and tighter line stows. ATAIR is not the first, nor the last to have such troubles, though that won't provide much solace if you get a bad one. The Sabre was notorious for hard openings. I spent a couple of days on a couch with ice on my neck. PD never acknowledged that the Sabre had any design problems, and PD is widely regarded as the best manufacturer out there. Another manufacturer recently had quality control problems with it's reserves. (yikes!) IIRC, Triathlons were pretty inconsistent when they were first produced. Quite a few blew up on opening. The AR 11 had similar problems. The Crossfire killed a few people before they fixed its design flaw. I found the Heatwave to be a mediocre Stiletto clone, with an even shorter recovery arc, and decidedly less bottom end flair than either the Cobalt or the Crossfire. So you have to turn pretty low to get a fun landing out of a Heatwave, but hook it too low and you might not have enough flair to bail out of the dive and walk away. Unlike the other examples, this isn't really a design flaw, but does illustrate how much of canopy choice is personal preference. I suspect that the container manufacturers are being excessively conservative to cover their buts, not unlike the "maximum" wingloadings recomendations that are routinely ignored by anyone with more than a few hundred jumps. The fact is that a properly closed container won't require more than 10-15 LBS of force to open the container. Even a 20" PC provides far more drag than that. Given that the jumper in question already has a Cobalt, I stand by my recomendations regarding PC size, closing loop length, and PC pouch concerns. Hopefully that will make for good openings, in which case, I've no doubt that they'll love their Cobalt. If it's still a problem, that's another issue, but hardly one that's unique to ATAIR products. One last thing: Performance Designs literature supports my contention that PC size affects opening speed. I'm inclined to trust their opinion on that issue. YMMV. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

QuoteDitto what Diablopilot said. A collapsible PC should have zero effect on how a canopy opens. It collaspes as the canopy comes out of the bag. Whenever theory and practice conflict, you can bet the theory is wrong. I don't pretend to know why a smaller PC effects the openings, but it does. I had a 28" PC on my Cobalt 95, in an Infinity container. My openings were hit and miss, with the not infrequent slammer. I switched to a 24" F111 PC, and the openings have been *far* more consistent and two staged. The difference is unmistakable. If a PC in tow is a concern, you can lengthen the closing loop a little bit. I doubt it's much of an issue unless the container is poorly manufactured or the canopy is simply too bulky. IMO, a more legitimate concern is premature deployment due to a pilot chute that's smaller than the spandex pouch was designed for. In this case, opting for a 24" F111 instead of a 22" ZP is worth exploring. It generates a bit less drag than a ZP, and is less slippery, thus tending to stay put. I've got an eight year old Javelin with fairly trashed spandex, and I still don't have any trouble securely stowing a small PC in it. YMMV -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

If you haven't already, post this question on BLINC. There are some really knowledgeable wingsuit flyers that AFAIK don't read this forum. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

What kind of canopy was it? IIRC Triathlon's used to have a tendency to blow up. I'm pretty sure it happened to a couple of jumpers at my DZ when those canopies first came out. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

to add another thrill element to this they could try to do the whole jump blind as well.... I did that once. Dan Rossi does it all the time. He's got some great stories that usually involve loss of effective radio communication. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Maybe if we skipped taking showers we could keep up with them? -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

I've debated this with other jumpers before, but we haven't reached any sort of consensus. In my humble opinion and relatively limited BASE experience, reaching for the risers before the canopy sits you up is a bad idea. My reasons: 1) Poor body position is a major contributing factor to off heading openings, focus on body position until the opening is almost complete. Canopies aren't responsive until they're pressurized anyway. 2) If you reach for your risers and your hands get in the way, you might cause an offheading opening and/or injure your hand. 3) Watching video frame by frame has proven that I can consistently get my hands on the risers or toggles after being sat up, but before the canopy is fully pressurized. I'm very interested in hearing other lines of reasoning on this! -Josh ps: this really ought to be posted on Blinc as well, but I seem to have trouble posting over there. Mick: contact me at jwhipple10@attbi.com If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

For us backwards Americans: 5 miles = 8 kilometers Therefore, his fall rate was roughly 76mph. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Pro packing Vs Flat packing is really a matter of personal preference. In BASE you should be cleaning up and detailing the folds and line groups after the initial pack job anyway. I usually start with a pro pack and clean it up after laying it down. Others flat pack, but it's the end result that matters. You really ought to seek out a mentor and/or invest the time and money in a formal BASE course. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

I'd like to address a few different points that've come up in this discussion. Regarding the comment that "The causes of malfunctions on any canopy are 1 unstability at pull time 2 poor packing 3 worn out gear ", The canopy type *is* a factor. Generally, highly loaded and or eliptical canopies are going to have a higher malfunction rate than others. So far, that seems to be an unavoidable fact of canopy design, regardless of the particular brand. Historically, their have been canopies that malfunctioned at unusually high rates. I'm not aware of any canopy on the market right now that has an exceptionally bad track record of malfunctioning, so the point about not blaming the canopy is still basically valid. Regarding the comment about people cutting away due to the 2 stage openings on Cobalts: That's not the fault of the canopy, it's ignorance on the part of the jumper. Didn't anyone brief them on what to expect? Finally, I've been jumping Cobalts for a few years now, and absolutely love how they fly. I'm a small time dealer for them, but I'm not in it for the money. I've found the openings to be really nice overall, but not quite as consistent as advertised - especially at first. The comment about openings improving after a few jumps are dead on, and you do need to use a small pilot chute. I've had one cutaway due to linetwists that extended below the steering toggles. Incidentally, the cutaway was difficult, and I now recomend hard riser inserts to all! At any rate, the common denominator between my cutaway and a few others around the same time was a new packer. Previously, I'd had line twists on my 95 a few times, yet it was easy to kick out of them and less radical than on my old Stiletto 120. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Nah...don't get me wrong, a 1000 BASE jumps is really freaking cool, but a MILESTONE is roughly a 5200' cliff. AFAIK, Tom hasn't done that yet! Congrats, Tom. Sorry you didn't make it up my way last year like you were hoping to, but the door to the Emerald city is always open. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Since you should talk with the pilot before doing this anyway, the trick is to ask them to throttle back. Slower airspeed makes getting your feet up on the wing way easier. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Just to make it really clear to those that aren't already knowledgeable about base: When Spiderbaby says his first 100 jumps were "way more exciting than the sport already is...", what he's trying to say is that he's really freakin' lucky he lived through what must have been a steep learning curve. Don't use skydiving gear. Do get guidance from an experienced jumper. BASE is way too unforgiving for re-inventing the wheel. A lot of good people have already died figuring this stuff out the hard way so that you don't have to. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

That's definitely lower than my personal comfort zone. My guess is target fixation, though not with the street light, but rather with filming the other jumper. Who knows, maybe it was just an Aussie. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

I've never done a McConkey, but the first thing that comes to mind when I read your post, is that a freestander tends to be under hung. Dunno about yours, or how much of an issue that would be. Thoughts anyone? -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Spiderbaby, you truly hit the nail on the head. The first cop on scene thought it was "the coolest thing". The atmosphere during rescue was what could be described as subdued jubilance. I'm fairly certain that 80% of the civil servants there showed up purely for their own entertainment. Oh, and the news reports aren't entirely accurate. There were only two jumpers, plus ground crew. No one "ran away". The second jumper sent ground crew away, as there was nothing they could contribute to the rescue and no sense in getting them in trouble. At least that's what the guy covering his face told me. ;-) If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Wew! I've read the whole thread, and two things come to mind: First, on average, a BASE jump is clearly more dangerous than a skydiving swoop/high performance landing/hookturn/label du jour. While accurate stats are going to be hard to come by, I have no doubt that each day, far more swoops are performed than BASE jumps. Yet, if the last years trend continues, BASE will soon claim more lives each year than skydiving, even with less participants. This isn't to say that all base jumps are more dangerous than all swoops. An overzealous and poorly prepared/unexperienced skydiver could easily be taking a bigger risk attempting to swoop a student canopy than a run of the mill base jumper might be taking jumping a 450' bridge with a properly packed and maintained modern base gear. And now my main reason for responding (are you listening skydivers?): Second: It's true that a disturbing proportion of skydiving fatalities now occur under fully functional main canopies. However, IMHO, far too many of them are attributed to botched swoops, when in reality, they were more fundamental errors made by people that weren't trying to swoop at all. An example would be someone making a low turn in an attempt to land into the wind or avoid an obstacle. If one reads the fatality reports, I think you'll notice a lot of statements along the lines of "the deceased was not known to do high performance landings..." or "...was a conservative canopy pilot..." My point is certainly not that swoops aren't dangerous, but rather that NOT swooping doesn't necessarily make one a safe skydiver. It's all about knowing your gear, learning as much as possible about your sport(s), and knowing and pushing your personal limits in incremental steps. Remember, if it looks easy when someone else does it, it just might be because they've practiced it a helluva lot! -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.