ZigZagMarquis

Tonto, I don't disagree with anything you're saying... in fact, I'm pretty much in agreement... but... dare I say... seeing as how you're in South Africa, you do have the "luxary" of several thousand miles of "insulation" from the problem AND not being under the same aviation administration that has already admonished at least one rigger over this very issue. To varrying degrees, this topic does have a lot of riggers "scared" that they're going to be hung out to dry over this if they put their name & seal to Jav or Odyssey with or without an RSL, with or without it hooked up by the user when they jump it and something goes wrong that is or isn't related to the RSL. Being in a different country, it should be certainly easy to understand why folks there would be more apt to be "less worried" about this. Bill, Its been awhile since I read the WARNING label on a new ProTec, but doesn't the statement boil down to a disclaimer something like "don't expect the use of this helmet to protect the user's head from anything".

Up front, I'll admit its been years since I've been to Eloy... so long, in fact, that the last time I was there, the landing area rules were basically... the main landing area was east west, first person down sets the direction, period, regardless of whether they downwinded it or not... the alternate landing area was to land into the wind; rather then the current policy as I understand it that the alternate landing area is north south. I'd like to get around to getting over to Eloy and jump... I keep thinking about it... keep meaning to. You just can't beat a place where when you go up to manifest they ask you if you want to be on a 5, 10 or 20 minute call and also where you can hear them call "Otter load Eighty-something" this is your blah-blah-blah call. That's hip! However, I'll also admit that my first blush is I'd perfer if their main and alternate landing area policies were more like what I described when I was there last, years ago, rather then their current scenario. It makes me wonder if its put folks in the mind-set to be less aware of current conditions and what's going on around them because they're "just going to land in this direction" rather then putting more brain-bytes on piloting their canopies to a landing pattern / direction (i.e. into the wind) that's going to change from day to day, maybe even jump to jump, which requires more forthought? Anyway, that was meant as a point to ponder, that's all. Having said all that tough, it sounds like this latest one didn't have to do with confilicting patterns and/or high performance landings with more conservative canopy approaches in the same area. It sounds more like one or both canopy pilots failed to see and avoid the other; debate over which, both or neither was or wasn't in a position to do so withstanding.

What PDave said... plus consider this... "Some of the most useless things in aviation:" 1. Altitude above you. 2. Gas on the ground. and 3. Runway behind you. ... think about it.

OMG!!!! Is "Bob" jumping a Sunpath rig there without the RSL hooked up!!!!!??????!!!! I guess a "hastily planned exit" qualifies as a "possible" under the... "...The user can “disengage” the RSL lanyard by disconnecting the snap shackle, if in an emergency situation or to avoid a possible emergency situation..."... clause. But seriously... no... really... great pics.

Rob... agree with the first part of your statement... not going to touch the last part. Anyway, I've certainly gotten out of a Cessna many a time on a hop-n-pop without a cut... ... or had the pilot push me out without a cut... The thing I would be leary of is getting out of certain aircraft under climb power and in a climb attitude for fear of the possibility of hitting the tail depending on what you did on exit... i.e. "jump up"... I've seen more then one King Air with a patch on the leading edge of the left horizontal from where a skydiver hit it on exit... I know of a Twin Otter too that has a simlar patch on the leading edge of its horizontal... but that was from a surf board hitting it...

When I get the chance, I intend to go over the info you've provided in more detail to understand it better and see if I can find cooberating information from other sources. In the intrim though... A few questions / thoughts... 1) When you say twice the rate... what do you really mean. Do you really mean twice that per flight hour of all other Part 91 flight hours or have you thrown in major air carriers and all the hours they operate as well? Same thing, different words... I'd like to see the math and the data that went into the formula? 2) Did you eliminate incidents or "crashes" primarily attibuted to mechanical failure? i.e. Maybe we need better jump plane maintainers? 3) Did you eliminate non-jump general aviation incidents that occured under conditions not directly comparable to that under which jump ops typically occur? 4) Did you try to break down your data by aircraft type? For example, take the accident rate of Twin Otters per hours flown performing jump ops and compare that to the accident rate of Twin Otters per flight hour used for passenger and cargo transport... of the same for the family of Cessna aircraft typically used for jump ops also widly used in general aviation... maybe you'll find some of the aircraft we typically use for jump ops are less reliable then others, thus inflating the stats.

UPDATE Pre-Registration is officially closed! Which means the Peckerhead Meat is right around the corner. You can still register at the door though! Friday, March 30th The lingerie dive will be around 12-1 p.m. Manifest gals will be in lingerie too!! We will be jumping all day long too. Saturday, March 31st Registration and Pre-registered check in 7:00 - 8:00 All the fun you can dream of. Dinner 6:00 p.m. Raffle and lots of fun! Sunday, April 1st Skydiving and recuperation Please remember the Original Peckerheads will be there, so leave your kids and pets at home! Seriously, NO KIDS after sun-down... its an Adult playground... Blue skies, Skydive California City For more information or questions, please call 1-888-373-4007

Joe, Patti says, "Tell joe I say Hi and I miss him...he is the preacher that streaks."

When I was a RIT... Rigger In Training... I was taught to replace the reserve closing loop every repack and that's what I've always done... but I'm not 100% sure if thats written down anywhere? I cannot speak for the Teardrop as I've never packed one, but if some system has a systemic problem or any particular rig has a specific problem which causes wear to the reserve closing loop, changing the reserve closing loop, even on every repack, may not prevent excessive wear. What does the mfgr of the Teardrop say?

An issue, yes... no... sort of... "No", it didn't cause anybody not to get to jump. "Yes", the topic came up as in the current "thought" of the riggers in our piece of the verse seems to be its probably "best" to have the RSL on a Jav or Odyssey and over to the individual users to have it hooked up or not under Sunpath's latest writting on the subject... "...if in an emergency situation or to avoid a possible emergency situation ONLY...." ... and I did turn away a re-pack until that person / rig owner gets a master rigger to either re-install the RSL or sign it off on the packing data card for his Odyssey...

Bill, Not answering for ward / would like to hear his answer too but... I haven't seen any Type 17s break at the point where the gromet is punched through since they're all pretty much reinforced these days... I do remember seeing several Type 17 risers break "back in the day" when they weren't reinforced and fat guys were jumping them. However, now that you mention it, I do remember us making one of our buddies ride the airplane down when, during the ride up, we noticed the webbing on his Type 17 riser coming apart at the point where the webbing small (third) ring on. I've also seen Type 17 risers grounded because the 550 loop was deemed to be "too worn."

Good point. I'm going to go out on a limb here a bit and say that when you say... ... you're probably talking about Type 17 risers, correct? While one should never say never, the chances of a similar failure of a Type 8 riser would be "remote"... whould you agree? The one time I've seen a master rigger add an RSL ring to an existing riser was on a Type 8 riser and he did it by, basically, adding another confulance wrap around the existing one to attach / hold the ring for the RSL. I don't recall what type of material he used, but it wasn't just binding tape.

For the most part... I do...

Tom, Kall, True and well stated. Again, I'm sure what is required of insurance companies to get a new jump pilot on a DZ's policy differs wildly from DZ to DZ and may even be non-existent and I'm familiar with the sign-offs needed by tow pilots for glider ops. I still don't see the trail of carnage and stacks of accident reports that others have alleged, but am asking to... if it can be produced. Safety & Training is important, duh. However, the "for safety sake card" is oft misused to promote an individuals own agenda and personal will. Lastly, the last thing we need everywhere is more bureaucracy, but it seems unlikely not to happen.

What created the... 1) Most discussion 2) Most controversy (i.e. difference of opinion) 3) Most information exchange ... discussions at YOUR Safety Day 06 meeting. ---- At ours... IMO... 1) Landing Pattern 2) "Practicing" downwind and/or crosswind landings 3) Aircraft emergencies (i.e. what to do in the event of) with specifics geared towards the C206 and Twin Otter

She was there, but went home before the "safety meeting".

Problem. What problem. Please, show me the numbers. Please, don't hide behind the "safety" card.

PA deleted. Your one warning.

Get a .45

*bump* TOMORROW!!

AAAACCCCKKK!!! I suggest that a sub-Forum under the Gear & Rigging Forum be created for ANY and ALL RSL discusions and RSL related topics.

... AND your "cargo" moves around, stinks up the airplane & makes other rude noises, makes smartassed comments and clings to the outside of the aircraft, sometimes on control surfaces before getting out! True. The way I understand it, besides needing a commercial ticket, jump pilot training/requirements are pretty much driven by what ever it takes to get on the aircraft insurance at the DZ in question. I could see where that would differ DZ to DZ. However... before we go "nationalizing" this... where do you think the COST of doing this is going to get passed onto? Higher Jump Ticket Prices and possibly Higher USPA Membership Dues!

Its kind of tough to describe... hopefully someone will come along and post some pictures...

Ummm... its been awhile since I had Physics... but I don't recall there being a change to gravity when their's snow on the ground...

Must have been his brother... this was definitly a zip-tie...