ZigZagMarquis

... and DO NOT smoke while doing this!

I've heard it rumored that the design of the Stilletto has changed since it was first introduced... OBTW... I think that was more then 10 years ago (1993 is when it was introduced, if I'm not mistaken). Anyway, I've heard rumors about things like line trim, slider size and slight modificaitons to the airfoil shape (speculation... intentional tweaks or minor changes due to changes in maufacturing ??... who knows). Mabye someone with more knowlege will be along with facts.

Circa 1993/1994 @ the California City Skydive Center where I learned... Student gear were Telisis rigs with an SOS on the left shoulder, so it went something like, "Look at the yellow handle, grasp the yellow handle with both hands, feet / knees together, pull the yellow handle to full arm extension, strip the cables, toss the handle away and Arch. Later, when schooled on gear transition to a two-handle system, it was one hand per handle, so it went, look at the cut-away pud (usually red, so it was "look red"), grasp red, look a the reserve D-ring, grasp the reserve D-ring (thumb through the ring), pull red (pull the cut-away pud), pull silver (pull the reserve rip cord), arch. That's the way I practice it today, and I voted one hand per handle... look at the cut-away, grasp the cut-away with my right hand, look at the reserve D-ring, grasp the reserve D-ring with my left hand, pull the cut-away, pull the reserve... and that's how I remember doing it on my 3 cut-aways & reserve rides to date. I want to say that for the most part I've seen instructors teach the one hand per handle method, but I have also seen instructors teach the two hands per handle method, first the cut-away, then the reserve, obviously... maybe about an even split between methods. I too want to say that I've seen instructors teach small folks (i.e. small girls) the two hands per handle method where as they would teach guys (i.e. bigger stonger folk) the one hand per handle method (not a bash on the ladies or any instructors out there, just what I've seen).

skybeer, Understand and agree, but speaking of the Sullivan lawsuits, any update on the Sullivan lawsuits (without out-ing any details). Have they gone to trial yet? In total, it was 4 or 5 (or 6?? or more??) cases filed??

Fuck-em. Ignore them. I may be fun to lay them out

Keep asking questions like that and the Black Helicopters will start monitoring you!

DW, You realize that the 3 posters above you were probably not even alive in 1974... or at the least still crappin' in their pants then... think a PC is a pilot chute... and have no real idea what a ParaCommander is... umm... in actuality, I'm glad those days ever pre-date me... Don't bet on it. Well, I'm fairly sure Spizz wasn't with us in 74... and well... even today, reportedly he still craps in his pants from time to time after a rough night...

DW, You realize that the 3 posters above you were probably not even alive in 1974... or at the least still crappin' in their pants then... think a PC is a pilot chute... and have no real idea what a ParaCommander is... umm... in actuality, I'm glad those days ever pre-date me...

No, but dating a girl with small hands will!

It's also a hook with which to snag a deploying reserve pilot chute. Yeah, that's a handy thing to have... Well, I don't know if that specific scenario has ever happend John, but there was a fatality a few years ago where a jumper was using a similar device to secure his collapsed slider post main deployment, spun himself into line twists flying after that, pulled his cut-away, the 3-rings released, but the main didn't leave (because of the collapsed slider being "attached" to him)... shot the reserve into the trash... main reserve entanglement... etc. etc.

Good job and good job to the student to. None of us was under "that" trash, the student is walking, he (or she) did the right thing... Pops, lighten up. Anyway... Unstable, My friend, ...so... yes, you got your beverage of choice from the jumper you saved, but you said the F-word... that would mean YOU owe a CASE OF BEER to the DZ!!!

All that be as it may... seeing an PC "out" and the student and JM moving around in the back of the airplane with the door open getting ready to do an IAD still gives me the hebey-geebies...

I have in the past, more than likely will pass on the opportunity in the future. Like I said, *I* don't think it's a good idea. Fair enough. I cannot fault you for not sticking to your convictions. Cheers.

*double sigh* DP, I understand what you're trying to do... add as many knots to the bullet your using to try to make your point, but trying to read too much into my posts to make your point is poor. I never said nor meant to say that I had any sort of "logic" that we should train skydivers with rounds and belly warts nor that AFF shouldn't have come about. I have great respect for folks who came up in the sport then, but that stuff is truly outdated. However... You're seeming to be saying silly things too. Like I could say something as silly as, "By DPs logic we should train skydivers to become skydivers by putting them out on Velocity 97s or some other suitably 2.0+:1 loaded high performance canopies". Please, think on this, a big TLO if student status is to teach someone how to save their life... i.e. how to use a parachute to safely make an intentional descent from an aircraft. I see your opinion that hand deployed main PCs for AFF students is your preference, but in my opinion and it would seem many other reputable folks in the sport as well, a rip cord / spring loaded main PC on student gear is just as suitable for that as well. Let me ask you this... would you never work as an AFFI at a DZ that used rip cords / spring loaded main PCs on its student gear? If you went to the DZO and/or Chief Instructor at such a place and got all over them about it not being suitable, how far do you think you would get? Be realistic.

*sigh* I hesitate to continue this, but... At what point did I say proper training and good instruction wasn't a must? It is. I ceratinly agree that 1st jump AFF students have and will be properly trained to jump with hand deployed PCs... but... my point is... at the same time, with proper training to those considerations, a rip-cord & spring loaded main PC set-up is just as acceptable. Guess what!!?? There's advantages and disadvantages to both!! Wow!!! That's my opinion as, it would seem to be, the opinion of many DZOs, the USPA and many AFFIs as that both systems are still in use at many places... disagree and crucify "spring loaded main PCs for students" simply becasue YOU view it as out-dated technology if you must. I just don't, yet, throw it on the same "out dated" pile as you do.

DP, How can you say that? Do you have no respect for the 1000s and 1000s of skydivers that have gone before you and learned to skydive on rigs with rip-cords and spring loaded pilot chutes on their mains? And/Or those many many skydivers that learned to jump when it was, if you wanted to jump it was belly-warts, capewells and the SL progression? Come on now. I could say the same thing about your thinking that anything which came about in the sport before y'all graced it with your presence is flawed. Anyway, you don't agree with me. I can live with that.

It seems to be more outdated among those who think they must use the "latest" gear or among those who do not like closing the rigs. Spring loaded pilot chutes work despite their problems, (which are few as far as safety and reliability go). I think that we should train skydivers on gear that most closely resembles that which they will be jumping. Skydivers stopped jumping spring loaded a long time ago. Oh, wait. I did jump a spring loaded main 2 weeks ago. Ah yes... this is one of the "tried and true" arguements in skydiving... I think this, along with "the great RSL debate" & "SOS vs. 2-Handle systems for students debate"... and I'm sure the soon to come, "Skyhook vs. sans-Skyhook debate"... will continue in skydiving until the end of time or until we invent anti-gravity belts & rocket boots. Sorry, DP, gotta disagree with you on this one... while I "see" your theory about training students on gear that most closely resembles that which will they will be jumping... I'd pose that one ought to balace that with the vast majority of folks who come out to do an AFF only ever do one or maybe a handful, so, a rip cord & spring loaded main set-up is, IMO, more suitable for such & does closely resemble what the few who do complete AFF and continue skydiving will be jumping. Disagee? Okay

For what its worth (I'm guessing not much)... but... for what its worth, I second that! If for no other reason, I would like to suggest "aircraft incidents" (jump plane crashes on landing after dropping jumpers... jump plane crashes on takeoff / shortly there after because the engine shit itself or the JB weld on the prop let loose... jump plane crashes while being flown from point A to point B for some non-skydiving purpose... jump plane gets damaged by drunk skydiver racing his car around the airport at night... etc) be separated out from the current "Incident" forum.

No problem! Gets ya out of the house and away from the bitchin' for a little bit!!

In short, "Yes", its been done. However, sounds like you're asking an age-old question, "How can we minimize or eliminate switching rigs back and forth from a Static Line (SL) set-up to AFF?"... regardless of whether or not your AFF students are using rip-cords with spring-loaded main pilot chutes or hand deploys. On the "pilot chute assist" type set-up that it sounds like you're describing, I believe that both spring loaded and regular (non-spring loaded) pilot chutes have bee used on SL rigs, but in both cases, the pilot chute is inside the main container. The pin that closes the main container is on the SL, obviously, and then the SL then continues inside to be attached to the main pilot chute to "assist" it out as the student falls away from the aircraft, SL opens the main container, etc. etc.; the SL providing this assist the the main pilot chute by being attached to the apex of the PC either with break cord (seen) or (I've heard) Velcro used. Think of a SL with a non-spring loaded PC as a pullout that is activated by a SL. Also, while I say such things have been done, I'm not saying its a good thing or a bad thing... I'm sure though folks will be along with their 2 cents one way or the other. IMO, I've never been a fan of pilot chute assist SL set-ups, but rather I like "direct bag" SL set-ups if you're going to do SL. The potential exists for the student to "grab and hold" the PC on a pilot chute assist set-up and/or sit on the toilet out the door and trap the PC under their ass or horseshoe it or something. Where as with a direct bag SL set-up, unless the SL breaks before the main container is open or the JM is a total moron and doesn't hook up the SL before dispatching the student, the student is going to get something over his or her head on exit... sure there are downsides to direct bag SL systems too (line twists are common, and little to no freefall time, etc.). Anyway, just my 2 cents. OBTW, earlier in life, I was a SL Jumpmaster and put students out on both pilot chute assist and direct bag SL systems. As for your last 2 questions... ... not sure how to help answer those. If you're looking for a way to not have any conversion time between rigs set-up for SL and AFF, I don't think there is really a 100% way of doing that, other then what DP suggests, go IAD rather then SL. I've seen DZs go this way for this very reason OR only offer Tandem or AFF and not do SL or IAD is another (similar) approach I've seen. Enjoy. Let us know what ya'll decide / figure out.

How do you get the pin in then without damning someone to rigger hell? Do you have a trick or are you just that patient? Maybe it's me... Try a "pin follower". Para-Gear sells this variety. http://www.paragear.com/templates/base_template.asp?group=29#S7935 Don't think it would work with the UPT "fat pin" though. ... but it works great with the standard Capewell straight pin y'all see on 90-something percent of the reserve rip cords out there. Also, another tired and true "trick", if you've got the time, is to get the container closed all the way and when you'd go to put the real reserve rip-cord / pin in, just put one of those "pointy" Cypres Temp Pins in, place a hundred lbs of packing weights or so on the container, let the pack-job "think small" over night and come back the next day and pin it for real. Also, also, remember not to make the reserve loop so short / the reserve pin so "tight" that it exceeds the 22lb (max) pull force on the reserve ripcord... and, same thing, different angle, remember that a too short reserve closing loop + using a positive tension device, etc. can damage the reserve loop anchor... I've seen one rig grounded for this (damage to the reserve loop anchor). How will learning about my gear help me diagnose a clamped reserve hiding behind a rigger's seal? After knowing someone who died because some other rigger left a clamp in the reserve pack-job of the rig she was jumping... this, in part, motivated me to "leare more about my gear" by getting my rigger's ticket. A suggestion... "If you're going to use clamps when packing a reserve, make sure there is a very long and brightly colored lanyard / flag on the end of the clamp... consider too attaching the other end of said flag to something heavy; like a small block V8."

Nah, that's Tasouia (sp?) ... you know the Japanese kid at Bob's that had like 2 or 3 mals because he'd forget to cock his pilot chute. Anyway, there is probably some lucky bastard out there who got EFS as his (or her) seal number. RIP would be another good seal number if your into the black deathy stuff.

Just curious... is this a regular pilot chute, kill-line pilot chute, or a bungee pilot chute... and how old is it / there's a chance it may be time for a new pilot chute anyways if its getting old.

[joke] Ah, Yes, the cursing of the name Reid when trying to close a Talon... 1st chant when doing that "choke the chicken" maneuver while compressing the reserve pilot chute... followed by the 2nd chant of when closing the container... I know it well... [/joke] At first, I'd guess that the answer to your riddle is "nothing", but after thinking on it, I think your riddle is flawed... as in... you can't always give folks in marketing enough credit to know enough that they'd know they were telling lies.

Huh? Oh yeah... Skydive Santa Barbara too.