
miked10270
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Everything posted by miked10270
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Hillary Rips Climbers Who Left Dying Man
miked10270 replied to warpedskydiver's topic in Speakers Corner
Yeah... and then Roundhouse-Kick everest down to a height of 5 feet while Sly was getting the stretcher off the train! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
Hillary Rips Climbers Who Left Dying Man
miked10270 replied to warpedskydiver's topic in Speakers Corner
Yeah... And where the hell was Chuck Norris while this was happening. Him & Sly could have swum the Atlantic, around the Cape, up the Indian Ocean, caught a train to Nepal (to get their breath back after the swim), and jogged up with a scoop-stretcher & some SCUBA bottles. Frostbite?.. They could pull the stretchered guy down with their teeth! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
"... Issues such as this are not "Attitude-Mirrors" as miked put is, but rather "Attitude Conduits" reflecting the philosophies and policies of the commanders." That really depends on how far up the "Fuck-'em" attitude goes. "They laugh & dance in the streets when we're harmed, so..." The British Army had about 20 years of hard lessons from Northern Ireland to draw on. A solid core of NCOs & senior COmmissioned Officers who'd been there before... And a lot of mistakes to learn from. What The US Army & Marines have is a few months of training & lectures. I *KNOW* that one of these lectures will be on Roadside Bombs (based on British experience in NI). Such IEDs are invariably detonated by "command wire. It's low-tech and the most reliable solution. Instant detonation on demand for best effect with no chance of some farm truck or bus accidentally detonating your IED, or it going off at a preset time when nothing's there. No wait for a cellphone to connect and no radio signal to be jammed. Just twist the switch or touch the wires and you've got instant bang! So... Troops are trained to be aware of the 3 features of a roadside IED: 1. A choke point. Something which'll cause the target to slow or stop. 2. A terrain feature leading from the "choke point" to hide the wire along. Leading to... 3. An overwatch point. Somewhere the operator of the IED can conceal himself, watch the choke point, and detonate the IED at the optimum time. So... Post detonation, you look for a terrain feature (ditch, hedge, fence, whatever) leading from the place of detonation and follow it to a likely overwatch point (like, in this case, houses). It's amazing how clear this is after a detonation. It's the one with wire running along it! If you can get to the overwatch point fast enough, there's a fair chance you'll get the Bastard who's just set off the bomb. But in Iraq, you can expect a firefight if you get close to catching the bastard, and like General Patton famously said: "It's not YOUR job to die heroically for your beliefs. It's yur job to make sure the other poor SOB dies for HIS!" Like I said. Training. They followed it. Their post IED actions went like clockwork. Shame about the civvy collateral damage. But they followed their training. You punish troops for NOT following their training. Mike. PS: "... a little too gung ho..." Gung-Ho actually means "in harmony", or "working together"! It doesn't mean "overly aggressive"! It was brought to The US Marines by a colonel who'd worked with The Chinese resisting the Japanese invasion of Manchuria (an army version of The Flying Tigers). It was adopted by the US Marines in it's original meaning, but their fames and heroic aggressiveness during the WWII Pacific campaign perverted it's meaning. Mike. Edited to add: Wait a goddamned minute... What the hell am I doing defending The US Marines!!? Bunch'a bodybuilding poofs! Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
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Hillary Rips Climbers Who Left Dying Man
miked10270 replied to warpedskydiver's topic in Speakers Corner
Add to that freezing cold, no chance of a warmer than tepid drink, blinding white decor, and the fact you haven't had any proper sleep for at least the last week... Co-incidentally, the British Army had an experienced, very fit and well kitted expedition going up Everest. They've just decided to pull the plug on it and descend because it would be too risky to continue and they didn't have the supplies to stay put. http://www.armyoneverest.mod.uk/ Good call. Knowing when to quit and quitting when you know is what keeps you alive on extreme expeditions. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
I would suggest that the troops are being "Attitude-Mirrors". If the people visibly don't want them there, and don't care about the troops' welfare, then the troops will adopt the same attitude to the people. Meanwhile, As far as I can see, the US Marines are behaving well up to the standards of an offensive fighting force. Remember that it's COPS who play "Shoot--don't-shoot". Armies play "Shoot-and-kill-'em-all-with-minimum-friendly-casualties"! After that "atrocity" in the village where the US Marines killed civilians... I'm just waiting for it to emerge that the roadside IED which started it all was detonated by command wire from that village. Hence the search & clear exercise. If you train folk, you shouldn't get upset when they follow their training! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
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Hillary Rips Climbers Who Left Dying Man
miked10270 replied to warpedskydiver's topic in Speakers Corner
Yes, Hillary is definitely a mountaineer of note. Is it really 53 years since he conquered Everest!? It doesn't seem so, yet Hillary must be in his late 70's by now. I'd guess that it's a while since he's been on an extreme expedition. It really surprises me that Hillary has said what he did. To the best of my knowledge, there has NEVER been a single expedition which has abandoned it's own attempt in order to effect the rescue of another expedition! The attitude is that you're in deep enough trouble just by being there so you don't go out of your way to make it worse! If you take care of an injured or unwell climber, then he's almost certainly going to drag your expedition down with him. Do you just let him die, or do you join him in what amounts to a suicide pact? Of course, since Hillary, technical advances in equipment and clothing, along with the mapping of various routes, have taken the ascent of Everest away form the very edge of survivability it once was! I believe that there's even a route which doesn't require anything more than "hillwalking-skills" (and A LOT of sherpas)! In effect, a "tourist-route" which any reasonably fit person can manage provided there is sufficient support & supplies to sustain them. Hence, anyone with enough money can ascend Everest "carried" by an expert infrastructure in the same way that any AFF graduate can do 10 points of 20 way if they're jumping with Arizona Airspeed and The Golden Lions! HEY... With enough money, you can even spend 2 weeks in space with nothing more than a comprehensive safety briefing! BUT... This familiarity with Everest DOES breed contempt! While it's now known territory, it's still extremely dangerous territory and NOT simply the same mountain as your "local" 6,000 - 9,000ft peaks, only bigger. Mountain Rescue, which has now evolved to an extremely high standard with which we're all familiar, simply does not... DOES NOT... Happen past around 15,000ft. Once you're up there, you're effectively on your own. That's something the "tourists" just don't seem to realise. It's also not something which the companies offering vacations to Everest take great pains to point out! Of the 40 people who walked by, most would be lost in their own suffering. None could spare the resources needed to save the climber without killing themselves. The resources needed couldn't be got to the climber in time to save him. It's really "Can't Help" rather than "Won't Help". I'd have thought that Hillary would remember enough of what Everest was like to realise that. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
Greek, Turkish Military Planes Collide
miked10270 replied to warpedskydiver's topic in Speakers Corner
OR... We quite like the economic benefits... But DON'T EVEN THINK of telling us how to live. For example, I recall that alcohol is taxed quite heavily in Sweden. Do y'all do the occasional "Booze-Cruise" to Germany to stock up on cheap alcohol? Here in Britain our alcohol, cigarettes & tobacco are relatively heavily taxed. Thus you'll see ferries full of the "I-Hate-Europe" brigade going to France & Belgium to stock up. There's even been talk of boats sailing from Belgium or Holland and heaving-to just outside British waters for other boats to take folk out "shopping"! I'd say that Britain & Sweden aren't the most Euro-Sceptic nations. We are the most visibly divided on how far we should go beyond a purely economic community and the present mid-point we're at is unsatisfactory to both points of view. Personally, I'm slightly in favour of complete integration with Europe. Law, Currency, Taxation and Government... As opposed to complete withdrawal from Europe and an application to become America's 51st State. Britain is simply too small to go it alone without the Empire or Commonwealth. But the majority are happy to go along with the current "Cherry-Picking" approach to European union. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
Hillary Rips Climbers Who Left Dying Man
miked10270 replied to warpedskydiver's topic in Speakers Corner
It's really a bad analogy. How much help would / could you render DURING a skydive? How much risk would you take, say in swooping to deploy an unconscious skydiver?.. Would you chop your main and chase? 1500ft? 1,000ft? 500ft? Or would you think: Hope he has a CYPRES - Should've had a CYPRES? Mountaineers attempting everest & similar take up sufficient equipment & supplies for themselves. ANY extra they take is THEIR safety margin. Invariably, they operate on a slim or non-existent margin. BEFORE they render any assistance, they have to weigh the risk to themselves. In effect, should they help a stranger at the probable cost of their own life? Throw in tiredness, oxygen deprivation, cold etc... and you can see that unless someone actually falls into their tent, they won't deviate from their program to help. That'll only raise the death toll. I know it seems callous, but that's life in an extreme environment, whether it's 20,000ft up a mountain or half way across an Antarctic trek. You look after #1 first. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
Greek, Turkish Military Planes Collide
miked10270 replied to warpedskydiver's topic in Speakers Corner
It helps to remember the EU's old name, The European Economic Community. The thing that keeps member countries IN the EU is the same thing which makes other countries want to join. Free Trade & Subsidies. The thing which tends to tear the EU apart is national pride versus centralised policies & government. EU Members benefit from the free movement of goods, services & people throughout the EU. Outsiders are faced with import tariffs & restrictions which make their goods less competitive. Because of this, countries on the EU borders, whose main market is the EU want membership to allow them unrestricted sales in the EU. Turkey (for example) has a significant and cheap textile industry but is presently restricted in the amount of goods it can sell in the EU. However, there is the question of whether allowing Turkey membership would benefit the existing member nations or harm them. For example, Germany WILL have something to say on the removal of restrictions on their "Gastarbeiter". Same with several other EU members who don't want an influx of uncontrolled cheap labour raising their domestic unemployment rates. From there, the tool used to prevent Turkish membership is the "Ethnic-Card". Is Turkey "European"? What about the religous differences? Aren't there human rights issues? Didn't Turkey commit some atrocities 100 years ago? These arguments seem hypocritical in the face of some EU policies... Following the money provides a more logical answer! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
Since this has now degenerated into YAGA, let's summarise. British gun laws are insanely draconian. American gun laws are insanely non-existent. There are Brits who believe that their system is perfect and should be adopted whole by America. There are Americans who believe (etc...). My own view is that Britain did pretty well under the old (pre amended) Firearms Act, 1968 which allowed Britons to hold most weapons (Automatics, very large calibre & certain other weapons were prohibited) IF they showed reasonable cause to have a particular weapon. Reasonable causes included vermin control, knowledgeable collector, war trophy, and most significantly, Membership of a Gun Club - sporting & competition. Where this act fell down was in it's administration. For example, there were numerous "Gun Clubs" which existed solely to allow it's members at the time to obtain guns! No premises, no range or land to shoot over, and often not even any meetings if you don't count a monthly piss-up at the local pub. If I remember correctly, Michael Ryan was a member of just such a club which gave him his "reasonable cause" to buy an AK47 & ammunition. In the wake of Hungerford, gun clubs came under scrutiny and those which weren't serious enough, the ones which existed purely as an excuse for folk to obtain guns, were disbanded. Now... While Michael Ryan and Thomas Hamilton committed horrific crimes, the government response was completely disproportionate and misdirected. BOTH Hamilton and Ryan had previously had applications for grant or remewal of their Firearms Certificates recommended for refusal by the investigating police officer who "wasn't happy" with them. Both recommendations were overturned by more senior officers who didn't want an appeal going to court. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
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There's two theories on shooting comps in The London Games: 1: Britain will win EVERY medal in the shooting competitions 'cos as soon as the rival teams step off the plane, we arrest 'em all for holding illegal weapons & lock them up 'til the competition's over! 2: The games are being held all over london. We had to have something you could hold in Brixton. Hence the new olympic shooting comp which uses Mac 10s from a moving Ford Escort. If one skydiver kills a spectator making a reckless parachute jump, should the government confiscate all parachutes from all skydivers? PLEASE... Don't give our idiot soundbite-hungry politicians any more daft ideas! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
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If oil DOES begin to be sold in dollars, then the wise investment would be in precious metals as a hedge against inflation. The good thing about Gold is that it still adheres to The Gold Standard. Of course, another possible strategy would be to invest in American "Defence" industries... Since we're pretty sure of what happens to countries (without atomic weapons) who move away from the US Dollar! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
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Full text letter of Iranian President to American President
miked10270 replied to vortexring's topic in Speakers Corner
Hmm... I didn't think they were full members either. I assume that they haven't yet met the economic conditions to move to the Euro yet. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
Full text letter of Iranian President to American President
miked10270 replied to vortexring's topic in Speakers Corner
OK... Denmark produces oil (do they have a bit of The North Sea?) so doesn't use the Euro. Isn't Sweden sort of Dual-Currency with Euros accepted alongside the Swedish Kroner? Last time I was in Stockholm, it was either 9 or 10 to 1 depending on which shop you were in. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
Corruption continues in the big easy
miked10270 replied to warpedskydiver's topic in Speakers Corner
The French have a saying... "Vote for the Crook rather than the Faschist". Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
"Monopoly Money" is a common and well understood term. Would you prefer: "The US treasury is printing Monopoly Money." or... "Since it's departure from the Gold Standard in 1973, the US Treasury has consistently overprinted money and artificially inflated the dollar supply, thus causing a massive national debt which it is in no position to honour, even in part, should there be a run on the US Dollar". It really amounts to exactly the same thing. Let's face it. When it comes to printing worthless bits of paper which resemble money, the US Treasury under the current administration is the biggest counterfeiter in town. Right now, the US$ is rather like the Emperor in his "new clothes". The only thing supporting the Dollar is that it is the only currency in which oil is traded (if you want to buy oil, you must first buy Dollars). If the Iranian Oil Bourse DOES trade oil in Euros, then the worldwide demand for dollars will drop quite significantly (more so if Iran overproduces and manages to sell it). Thus the value of the Dollar will fall which'll trigger an inflationary cycle, all the more so if other countries (Venezuela?) also decide to trade their oil in Euros. In effect, the actual worth of the US$ in terms of the goods it'd buy would fall to around half it's current value! So yeah... Any move by Iranians (or any other country) to trade oil in anything other than US$ IS a "Clear and present danger" to America! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
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Full text letter of Iranian President to American President
miked10270 replied to vortexring's topic in Speakers Corner
It actually started (insanely enough) with me going to see a comedian - Bob Newman! He's a sort of Michael Moore - but funny. Then his "History of Oil" show was broadcast on a CHannel 4 cable spinoff in The UK (More 4). Digging into the semi-serious part of his show, sources DO check out, and the economics makes sense. It seems that this is a viewpoint which is currently bubbling along just under the mainstream media. No-one in the big news programs seems to go at it directly, they seem to sort of approach it obliquely & sheer off. Then again, I doubt that a direct article on "Our Troops are fighting and dying for bits of coloured paper" would find much approval anywhere. Meanwhile in Iraq, while we see a government formed, and the news that Iraqi troops & police are now taking the lead in the fight against "insurgents", we STILL don't have a timetable & definite conditions for troop withdrawal. What we DO HAVE is 14 (count 'em... FOURTEEN!!!) permanent US/British military bases under construction. Now... To me... Constructing permanent bases is NOT an action I would associate with plans to bring our troops home. So... We're not wearing the "White-Hat". We're not bringing democracy and self-determination to these people. We're empire building. At least the US & British leaders have assured us that "This is absolutely our last territorial demand... We definitely don't have any plans to invade Poland Iran." Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
Full text letter of Iranian President to American President
miked10270 replied to vortexring's topic in Speakers Corner
He DID question the logic surrounding the foundation of The State of Israel. Fair comment. Greater-Germany kills 6 million European Jews... Here's a bit of Middle east in compensation! Wouldn't it have made more sense to have given them Austria!? Then of course there's the whole translation thing. We get "The State of Israel should cease to exist" and it sounds like anti-semitic genocide all over again. BUT... Suppose he'd meant: "The partition of Palestine to form Israel was a crap idea. the country should be re-unified." What would "cease to exist" is a guaranteed Jewish Government of Israel - replaced by a mixed Jewish-Muslim government of Palestine (or a civil war depending on your level of pessimism and the number of guns left there). I think it's now accepted that partition by the vacating colonial power, while fashionable just after WWII, was a singularly stupid idea. When White-Rule ended in South Africa, would anyone in their right mind have suggested giving the whites the southern third or quarter of the country and the blacks the remainder? Yet, that's exactly what happened in Palestine, Vietnam, Korea, India, Cyprus, Angola, Rwanda... (do we see a pattern emerging yet?) The resulting civil war only really ends when the territory is re-unified. So I'll lay the blame firmly at the door of Britain and The USA for partitioning Palestine. I'll go further and say that the REAL solution to the Palestinian problem is in fact re-unification and a fair share of government along the South-African model. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
Full text letter of Iranian President to American President
miked10270 replied to vortexring's topic in Speakers Corner
Yeah... It's pretty accurate. IF oil came to be traded in Euros instead of US Dollars America would be FUCKED! For years,now, The US Treasury has been overprinting "money" (otherwise called The National Debt). Ever since OPEC passed a resolution to only trade oil in US$ which was forced through by those nice Saudis. This surplus money has languished in national reserves or travelled from one foreign country to another (as payment for oil or other goods - each dollar was worth an amount of oil, and every country needs oil. This surplus money never comes home. If oil were to be traded in Euros, then all these promises "To Pay One Dollar" would come home. Demand for US$ would fall causing the value of the Dollar to go down and triggering an inflationary cycle until the number of dollars in circulation actually matched the economic value of the US. In effect, the MASSIVE US National Debt is only supported by the fact that oil is traded in US$! IF that support were to disappear, then it's Germany, Ca:1923 for America. Figure on every Dollar in your pocket only being worth around 50 cents. Bear in mind that Iraq lasted 13 years after it had invaded Kuwait. 12 years of NOT complying with UN weapons inspectors. BUT.... Only 6 months after it changed it's national reserve to a Euro account and started selling it's oil in Euros. The first... VERY FIRST... act of the "liberators" of Iraq was to get it back under the US Dollar again. Bear in mind that the ONLY European countries who don't use the Euro are Norway & Britain. Co-incidentally, they are the only two Oil-Producing European countries. Venezuela quite suddenly became "Evil" when it took over the OPEC Presidency and moved for oil to be traded in Euros. Prior to that, its policies were largely ignored. Like I said before... Follow the money. It's NOT about the oil, it's about what's used to trade the oil. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
Cunnilingus: (noun): Oral stimulation of female genitalia: Sexual stimulation of a woman’s genitals using the tongue and lips... Commonly performed on a woman by ALL men in the hope of getting a "Blowjob"! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
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Illinois' "Let them rest in peace act" signed into law.
miked10270 replied to briguy's topic in Speakers Corner
One thing which DOES surprise me, given that there's a bunch of idiots like the Landover Westboro Baptist Church, is the absence of a bunch of counter-idiots! I'd kinda expected by now that the members of this church would be located, and... There was a 24 hour noisy protest right outside their homes! After all... Under your beloved Constitution there's a right to free speech... But is there a right to free sleep!? Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
Is it time to gather our control sticks? - press clips
miked10270 replied to lawrocket's topic in Speakers Corner
A guy's standing in a supermarket when he sees an attractive 20-something looking at him. He returns her stare and she smiles and waves. He goes over to her and says: "Excuse me, but do I know you?" She replies "I'm sure you're the father of one of my children". He looks shocked... "Are you the stripper who was at my stag party?.. The one I had sex with on the pool table while your partner beat me with a piece of wet celery!?" She says... "No... I'm your Son's English Teacher!". Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. -
Hi LJ, Firstly, you should stop thinking of it as being about sex. It's about Power. Domination. The perpetrator doing it because he/she can. Second, the article in JohnRich's post now mentions "OBJECT" which caused small tears and one larger tear. At it's most innocent, a clumsily applied rectal thermometer (but quite possibly not so innocent). This one really needs to play out and for more info to be made public before any informed opinions can be made. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
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It's certainly a strange one. There really isn't enough information in the article, and the way it's worded gives me some concern. Things like the police saying: "We ruled out other folk, so we charged the parents"! "I couldn't exclude the mom, so she was charged as well"!! As someone else commented, this couldn't wait until the kid left the hospital... WHY!? Was the father REALLY that stupid & couldn't wait? Wouldn't that make him "too stupid" to stand trial!? I just have this niggle... This case isn't as open and shut as it seems. There's more to this than just what's been presented. It'd be interesting to follow this through trial and see just what evidence the police DO have, and how far their investigation HAS actually gone. I wonder if the police have simply taken the line of least resistance in charging the parents. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
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The fundamental problem of the Human Rights Act is that it makes no mention of "Human Duties"! Nor does it link the two. In effect, if you wish to be treated with respect, then treating others with the same respect should be a given. Unfortunately, the law is flawed in this respect so folk (or their lawyers) use it to further their own selfish agenda shouting about how "MY HUMAN RIGHTS" have been breached, without there being any examination of how they breached the rights of another! That's what makes this law unworkable. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.