rehmwa

AND now it feels more like Bonfire.. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I could write on this bit for quite a while, but I'm satisfied to just quote it and let it stand on it's own merit. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

...and therin lies the rub. in this post, I'm with Steve. If a faithful person wants their personal, subjective beliefs respected, they have to do the same for those of a different belief system as well. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

1 - My point on that, is that it likely can and is conducted reliably since the development of the process would be designed to achieve the most reliable results of necessity. But that isn't really debatable with people that redefine the real process into something simplistic defined to win the opposite argument. 2 - the moral debate is subjective, I'm mostly in agreement with you, but that debate is much akin to throwing handfuls of sand into a strong wind regardless of your position. Lot's of effort resulting in maximum annoyance, but no real progress in the direction you want to go. Much like the first item, only much more clearly in the 'sand throwing' category. blues ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

meh - on an 'anonymous' website, there's always those that talk bigger than they really have the stomach for. I take those posts as just them expressing how upset they were about 9/11 combined with a refusal to communicate in anything much farther than grunts and barks. Or, they are typing in front of women and want to impress them with how monkey like and manly they are. It all comes down to women in the end. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I think it depends I presuppose I believe It is evident to me If you don't presuppose that, they you must presuppose I disagree with t Is faith required to believe in God? Absolutely! it is not faith without reason. so there's some key cuts - I took out the preaching that doesn't apply. you'd be better off not putting all that chaff in unless your just 'preaching to the choir' rather than debating with open minded opponents. It's just makes most of us turn off in boredom. clearly - faith without proof is demonstrated in your own words. if you need to 'reason' or 'rationalize' you underpinning of your faith, then you are still a doubter somewhere, but doing the best you can. But "reason" "proof", and in this context, it's more 'rationalization' - and there is nothing wrong with that in terms of subjective belief systems. Rationalization in a good context, not negative. Once believers just accept that it CAN'T be proven and just acknowledge that they believe regardless, then that's the truth, and there's nothing wrong with that and more power to you if it's a positive force for you and those around you. most cynics here don't have an issue with 'faith', it's really the abuse of the organization that exploit the faithful, and the individuals that misuse their beliefs to abuse (subtly) those around them. I find the organization aspect to be typical regardless of origin, and those types of individuals to be the exception (highly visible) and NOT the norm (quietly all around us) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

ok, I'm also against poorly planned and executed torture for information when my validating information is crappy - glad that's cleared up. Can you name anyone, at least on this board, that would be pro-"poorly conducted interrogation methods"? however, throwing out specific scenarios where it wouldn't work acknowledges that it can also be done correctly as well - so you are just entering the discussion about risk tradeoff vs the more subjective discussion of basic right vs wrong (absolutist discussion that goes nowhere anyway) edit: and you still didn't acknowledge the possibility that some posters just randomly look for rushmc posts and then reply that he's wrong without reading them - it's a fantastic time saver ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

seems odd when I see Carl's name and "cool" in the same sentence that there's the problem right there ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

funny (seriously - DD called me naive, rush pinged him on the irony meter, you called rush wrong. Though I prefer your answer anyway - I don't mind visiting Iowa, I wouldn't want to stay there) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

which are saying: that you think Dreamdancer is very sophisticated, or that I'm naive then? or is it just an unrelated comment in general to marc? if so, i think he gets plenty of random insults already - some earned, some just offered up for free ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

uh huh, I respect your right to have an alternate opinion, Andy. As always. You always have good reason. My position is based on this: if it's SO BAD that I'd break etiquette/trust on the concept of "private" message, then it's likely bordering on criminal, and then I have a responsibility to take a more positive action than just 'outing' him. example: death threats? this if for the cops - not the DZ.com community example: he reveals criminal intent, especially harm to another - ditto. and I'd also warn that other person. I don't see how some threat in, for example, Texas needs an Aussie to know. etc frankly, (my obsersation only to date YMMV) these so called "outings" aren't really that big a deal, the PM receiver just got pissy about some rudeness, or wants to 'win' some objective argument. I've not yet seen a posted PM where I didn't think the poster was the one out of line to post it. that might change someday, but I doubt it here. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

normally I'm the cynic. you seem very naive to me as regards the purposes of torture... when you see public torture (other countries - think decapitations, and political assassinations) when the victim is on display to create a specific response and push a political agenda - that's one kind. It matters little what's requested nor what the victim (specific here - "victim") knows. it's a show, and it's very wrong torture as a revenge method, etc, is extremely rare and associated with psychopaths, right? and those mentalities are rare, even though this is the extreme example that you lay your argument on - you watch too many CSI's and other syndicated TV shows. this wrong, and criminal of course torture as an interrogation tool isn't public nor should it be emotionally choreographed, it's usually hidden, and it's for the intent of gathering critical data. One can argue about its effectiveness all day, but the intent is very clear. Secret torture doesn't garner any political gain, nor and public relations gain (only losses). This item is the one people should really be debating. I'd think that doing this in an effective manner is likely rigorous, strategic and time consuming enough that other methods should be preferred - already discussed with Andy in a good conversation that didn't include idiotic personal jabs. right vs wrong is pretty contextual otherwise those are a couple types that I can conceive up front - I'm sure there are more naivety is assuming that only your narrow view of a subject - as defined to you by an extreme set of narrow, biased, prejudiced, emotive-only and political viewpoints is (right back atcha then since you insist) pretty much your area of strength. stick with it, it's good clean fun ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I'm agnostic, (I just really don't care). But that paragraph shows a misunderstanding of the concept of faith. Faith is predicated on the fact that there is NO PROOF - it's the definition. So the only reason to ask for proof, is just to be obnoxious and insensitive to the basis of the other's belief. Whether faith is based on reality or is just a comfy blanky or placebo doesn't really matter. It's the effect it has on the faithful (each individual, not any group, etc) that I watch. As for the effect it has on cynical large organizations, well, they are all eventually become crooked, so what if it's a 'church' or a political party, or a PC global effort, etc. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

normally I'm the cynic. But your ability to incorrectly stereotype others with your biases in these threads is dizzying, keep it up. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

FIFY ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

hush - some politician here will see that and decide that low turns will require a fine payable to the community for the children ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Which is exactly the problem. If they don't have information, they only way they can get it to stop is by making stuff up. so you are acknowledging, that the goal is to get info at least - not just gratuitous torture for the sake of inflicting pain? (straw man typically thrown out by now in this type of thread) then it comes down to a risk tradeoff discussion, not an absolute position ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

no reason to post PMs - regardless of the content. (can I come up with obscure and unlikely exceptions to this? probably, but you can do that with anything. the ones that I can come up with off the cuff, would likely result in my contacting authorities, a DZO/ST&A or another individual about the content, though, not just public posting) you don't like them? block the sender if they contain threats, etc, work it with the mods, or even law enforcement if it's serious and not just impotent "internet anonymous tough guys" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I agree with the basis of your whole post actually. Positive reaction to the world is to create coping mechanisms that work for the individual. Faith might be one that's pretty effective. If so, then why all the abuse on this website trying to belittle and destroy those supports from people that need it by those that have something else that works for them? rockclimbing.com seems to obsess over it and it's pretty much destroyed a good speaker's corner - it's starting to happen here now - it's goofy and petty ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I don't think I've ever seen that acknowledgment before. there is hope ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

so, then, just for debate purposes, then can we call the following "Kallend logic"?: If the SERE team member can opt out of training by quitting = not torture then, prisoners can opt out of torture by providing information = not torture ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

are you now talking about Speaker's Corner debate tactic #1? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

just get the Tetris anyone trying to sell you on no booties, is likely just wanting to make two sales - no booties now, and then the suit you REALLY need (booties) later. Mike will take care of you, he runs a good shop and is a good guy. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I really like that post have a great weekend ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants