JeffCa

I'm about 180 exit weight and have been on a Pilot 188 ZPX since about jump 60 or so. I went down on a progression from Navigator 280 -> 240 -> 220 -> Silhouette 190 -> Pilot 188. It's a beautiful canopy, opens very softly. It's also pretty docile, which is exactly what I want at this stage. If I ever hurt myself on it, it will not be because the canopy was inappropriate for me, it will be because I did something stupid or just had an unlucky day. Anybody can have a bad landing and break an ankle on any day under any canopy, right? I find the Performance Designs recommendations to be very conservative compared to my own comfort level with the Navigator and what instructors at a couple of different DZs were putting me under. Hope this is somewhat helpful. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Interesting wording here. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

What attitude is out there that you feel needs changing? Nearly everyone is in favor of them, nearly everyone uses them, a few people don't themselves but still are in favor of them. Who has a bad attitude about them? It's RULES that some are talking about changing here, not attitudes. I have no problem or emotion around AADs. I use one all the time when I do tandems, and I would even if there was not a rule on it. I sell them to people and make a profit doing so. I have a lot of emotion around people forcing their choices on me. Not that we need to change attitudes, but that attitudes are already changing. I'd bet if you took a survey of the people who feel that "I don't need an AAD because it's my responsibility to save my own life", you'd find it skews heavily towards people who started jumping when AADs didn't exist or were fringe. The newer jumpers who were raised with them would likely skew towards using them. And while you might not think that a "complete rig" includes an AAD, I already do, and I can't be alone on that one. Complete rig to me means 4 main components assembled together. It is my proposition that as time goes on, more and more jumpers will feel this way and it will become the new norm. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I think this is completely correct. Regardless of my opinion on the matter, I do think I'll see mandatory AADs in my lifetime, and this is exactly how it is likely to be received. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Maybe because it is so blatantly obvious, some things usually don't need to be pointed out. But since you started by asking for reasons for and against reserves, which is also painfully obvious I shouldn't be surprised. So much hostility is evident in your writing. Perhaps you should take a break from the topic and come back when you can discuss it calmly and without being insulting to those who disagree with you or who are thinking about it differently. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

And this is a valid argument against requiring them. Why aren't more people here using it? Not banning small canopies for everybody, but for people who haven't demonstrated the skill to use them, it might not be a bad idea and I could see it being implemented sometime in the future. Not sure about where you are, but some countries have different driver's licences for trucks, cars, motorcycles, manual transmissions vs. automatics. You're not allowed to drive a manual truck if you only have a licence for an automatic car. You have to demonstrate that you are capable of handling the class of vehicle before they'll let you on the street with it. But for somebody with the appropriate skill, we don't need to ban trucks. Banning 270 degree turns on landing for sub-xyz jump jumpers has also been implemented at some DZs. We don't ban demo jumps, we just ban them for people who haven't met the minimum requirements. I'm banned from doing a wingsuit jump because I don't have my 200 yet. And so on. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Is that OK with me? Are you serious? Why are you acting like I am personally trying to force an AAD on you? I'm not going to, and I don't have a vote if I did want to. I'm having a discussion here about changing attitudes towards AADs. And I did cite, on 2 occasions, economics as another reason people don't use them. You accused me of being emotional about the topic, I have none, but yours is clearly showing. You seem to be very jumpy towards people who think jumpers should have one, even it's just a non-binding thought. Why do you fear/hate us? As for the agism jab, I don't mean old people, I mean old-time jumpers. I'd bet that an older person taking their first lessons and never knowing jumping without an AAD would feel closer to how I feel than how you do. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I can see your point here, though I have to say comparing a reserve to an AAD was a very bad choice. Sorry, I was attempting some reductio ad absurdum to illustrate what kind of arguments we could have if we oppose, in general, pieces of equipment from being mandated just to avoid mandating things. I wonder if Grue thinks the main canopy should be mandatory. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I'm aware that BASE typically uses a single canopy, but this is a skydiving forum, and BASE is not operated like skydiving. I was wary of wading into this thread. I've already been subtly insulted twice. I just wanted to point out that the "don't regulate me" arguments are not valid when we happily follow other regulations without protest. People are fine with rules as long as they're rules that they like, they're not really objecting to the concept of having rules, but seem insistent on dressing it up that way. Just tell us the real reasons why you don't like something. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I don't have emotion surrounding AADs, though I see it all over this thread. They've simply been part of my equipment since I began learning. And I'm trying to just get people to comment on the differences. Your read-between-the-lines statement that it's a stupid thing to ask speaks to some emotion that you might be feeling, though. But thanks for the kinda compliment before that, I guess. So it's just the rate of incidents that dictates it? I was expecting that answer. I don't think that's a fundamental difference, it's a "have to draw the line somewhere" argument. It warrants neither anger nor a "nanny state" accusation as a response to possibly making AADs mandatory, because they're the same except for degree. Both can save your life. One is more likely to save your life than the another, statistically. And I'd argue that AADs are succeeding in the marketplace of ideas, at least for the new generation. There were still lots of older folks who stuck to typewriters long after computerized word processing became widely available, and that doesn't mean computers weren't succeeding in the idea marketplace. These 2 sentences are in contradiction, but why then do so many seem to have anger towards a DZO that wants to exercise the freedom to make them mandatory at his own DZ? Should a reserve be mandatory? Are they OK with it being mandatory? Why are we stomping on somebody's freedom to make their own grown-up decision? We're already required to follow many standards that others do, which is why I can't accept this argument. We just accepted them without thinking about it because we were raised with them or because we personally liked the ideas. 180-day (or whatever for where you jump) repack is one that is asked of us, but the anger over that issue is much quieter than for AADs. My entire point was simply to try to get people to realise that many things are already mandatory in skydiving, but none seems to get people as riled up as the AAD issue. Most of these standards, whether enforced by law or by DZs, are followed without thought because they just seem "normal" to us. There is not a fundamental difference between these and the AAD argument. I also believe that many people are making these objections because of cost. If AADs were $50, suddenly we wouldn't see so many "nanny state" accusations. The only argument that I really find to work is the matter of degree. Just come out and say it. "An AAD is very unlikely to result in my life being saved, and I personally find the cost-benefit proposition to not be worth it. Others may make their own choices about whether the chance of payoff is worth the investment." "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Right. And I'm guessing that most on here (Grue excepted) are fine with that. But the argument seems fundamentally the same as the AAD argument, just one is accepted and one is not. Reserves are expensive. They can possibly kill you. Lots of people never use them. But most of us would never even entertain the idea of jumping without one. I'm not sure if anybody wants to call the USA a "nanny state" because they mandate reserves. I think as we get more and more separation between us and the time when AADs were new, they'll come to be as accepted and vital as reserves are. I'm already finding Aerodyne's advertising about building all of the components for a rig to be a little jarring, because they don't make AADs, and I'm probably not alone there. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I'm against them being mandatory, personally. I'm also against seat belts being mandatory, or motorcycle helmets, but I always use 'em. You're against a DZ making reserves mandatory? Everybody with a serious malfunction would almost certainly die. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I have never jumped at a DZ that wouldn't let me jump without an AAD and I jumped for several years without any form of alti after having them repeatedly stolen with little use.... So to answer you question I have never been any place where either are mandatory. Thanks for the input, but I think people (you and Wendy) are answering my first question assuming that I meant AAD. I didn't. I meant what I wrote, reserve. I'm trying to draw out the fundamental differences between a mandatory (and widely accepted as so) piece of equipment that can save your life, and the question of making another piece of equipment that can save your life mandatory. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Should somebody be allowed to jump without a reserve? Why or why not? They're expensive, they're heavy, they can kill you if they deploy at the wrong time, and I know plenty of people who have never used theirs. Is it only a nanny state that would force a reserve on us? (Am I correct that reserves are mandatory at every DZ on Earth?) Is the issue just that the older jumpers see an AAD as an add-on, but many newer jumpers see it as a vital part of a rig? I don't consider a rig to be "complete" if it doesn't have an AAD. When I see ads for a "complete rig", I expect it to have an AAD, but it often doesn't. What should be the definition of a "complete rig"? Out of curiosity, are there places where altis aren't mandatory? I haven't been around enough to know, but I do know that some old-timers insist that their eyes are their primary alti. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Hard to tell if you're serious or not, but that attitude might get you injured or even killed some day! As a show of confidence, I shall super-glue my cutaway handle to the velcro on the harness webbing. (Anybody who knows me, not that there are many on here, would know that I despise packing and have struggled with it greatly. But no reserve rides yet!) "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I'm too good at packing to have ever used the cutaway handle. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I'm suspicious of the guy who posts about the fake passports for sale. Does anybody else agree, or am I alone here? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I have an exit weight of maybe 180 lbs. When I bought my rig, I tried to get large risers and large rings. The company I was dealing with has been an advocate of large rings, but they advised me that for somebody of my size, large rings would be "overkill". They only recommended them for the heavyweights among us. Then when I took this advice and relayed it to a major heavyweight at my DZ (280 lbs exit weight), one of our riggers said that even for him, it's a non-issue, and he could go with small rings. So there seems to be some confusion and/or differing opinions out there. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Randy, Brian Germain's book had the same, and I thought it must be an error in editing, but it turns out that it's not. Somebody more qualified than myself should explain why and in what situations it's useful.

The calculator sucks. I have 135 jumps, I'm loaded at

This is the conclusion that I came to when doing my research. We seem to really be splitting hairs when we discuss which containers are best. They all seem to have decent safety records, with no particular brand of rig contributing to an alarmingly high number of incidents. Anything that has survived for this long has done so for a reason. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Isn't this a little bit arrogant? My DZ has also 2 caravans, and sometimes we pack up to 19 people. I've been there, packed tight as hell. I still do my checks, just as everyone else. Nobody complains of "elbowing". Even if they do, I won't sacrifice my checks for not elbowing. So yes, I also disagree. Arrogant? No. Rudely elbowing your fellow passengers while your knees are trapped between the people in front of you is not considered acceptable here. Sacrificing gear checks? Are you serious? We check when we unbuckle. Why would you check your handle when you're scrunched that close anyway, if you can even reach it? If anything is going to loosen it, it's the time when everybody starts to move, so it negates your old check and you have to check again anyway. You seriously think we're unsafe because we do our checks when we hit 9,000? How long do you need to do this? And FYI, I see way more pin-checking in our plane in Japan than I did at my time training in the USA. Nobody is exempt. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Why until 9,000? I disagree. Doesn't really matter if you disagree. When you're sandwiched in so tight that you can't move your arms or legs, there's not much to do. Any motion with the arms will start elbowing the person next to you. We stay as still as we can. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Why until 9,000? Rules of the airport. We're guests on an airport owned by Honda. They tell us when we can take off, whether or not we can do hop-n-pops, when to wear our seat belt, they supply our pilots, etc. We're the biggest and busiest dropzone in Japan (of a staggering 3 in total), but no autonomy to run things the way we want. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

At my DZ we have a 19-jumper Caravan, so we're sitting on the floor and we have to wear our seatbelts until 9,000 feet. Crammed in that tight and still strapped in, there are no gear checks possible, and definitely nobody walking through the plane. Sleeping is pretty much the only thing to do. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth