JeffCa

Cables can come out of housings? That IS part of the check I was taught. I am hardly laissez-faire about my gear. My gear will be well-examined when I get my hands on it. I've already been PM'd once as a result of this thread from a rigger concerned about me, and he seems to have left that discussion impressed and well-convinced that I have my head screwed on properly when it comes to gear. For example, I've already read manuals for gear that I haven't even bought yet, all in preparation and research. But that doesn't mean y'all aren't completely blowing this thing out of proportion. One time is one too many? So I should be checking for things that have NEVER happened to anybody else? What you're referring to are otherwise known as "freak occurrences", and cannot generally be anticipated or prepared for, pretty much by definition. If we check for everything that has ever happened or that could conceivably happen before every jump, we'd never get in the air. Shall I also check the stitching on the canopy after each jump? I'd have to learn all about stitching and maybe even get a rigger's certificate, but stitching can fail. Canopies blow apart and lines tear off. It doesn't happen all that often, but it does happen, and so to be laissez-faire about it is just wrong. Then there's the aircraft maintenance..... Come on, honestly, how many incidents is this causing? If it isn't causing incidents, then it isn't anything to worry about, again pretty much by definition. That's why instructors and training organisations don't seem to give a damn about teaching it. You really need to be taking your complaints to the training organisations if you feel it is an important safety issue. But I'd suggest we have bigger problems with training, things that are actually causing incidents, such as poor or non-existent wingsuit training. And now I'm just being a broken record. But the biggest problem I have with this thread is that somebody came here seeking this knowledge, and so many have treated him not just without respect, but with active disrespect. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

My next jump will be #90 and I've never been taught to do this. As my new gear is being assembled at the factory and we can't do demos out here, I may not ever separate my canopy. There's a good chance that when it is sold, it will be sold as a complete unit. Is there a good reason to regularly disassemble it, one that isn't best handled by an inspection by a master rigger at repack time? Clearly, my instructors at the 3 different dropzones on 3 different continents where I've trained have not considered this to be crucial in any way, and they definitely don't consider me a danger to myself or others because I've never done it. When you pack your canopy, how to you know if it's correctly assembled and safe to jump if you don't know how it is supposed to be assembled? Last year my jump buddy caught a problem with one of his line sets on packing that could have killed him had he jumped them again. Knowledge is power. Well, assuming that I'm the only one using the gear, it should be assembled the same way it was the last time. Aside from checking for a visibly broken line or something, do canopies have a habit of disassembling and incorrectly reassembling themselves between jumps? Anybody who has a problem with the fact that I've never done this can PM me. I'll give you the names of the 3 dropzones that trained me, and the 2 national certification organisations that have given me licences. You may then contact them and complain about why assembly of a canopy is not being taught. You may also ask why jumpers who do not know this are allowed to be in the sky, where they are apparently a threat to their own lives and the lives of others. I've had a lot of instructors come by and give me advice on packing, watching me pack, and not a single one has ever mentioned this issue. They obviously don't consider it important. This is probably because there don't seem to be a whole lot of incidents caused by it. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I want to enter my guess, but it's just a guess. I understand that not every plane back in the day could make it much higher than 10,000 feet when full. So was it perhaps to level the playing field between teams at DZs with good planes and the others? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

My next jump will be #90 and I've never been taught to do this. As my new gear is being assembled at the factory and we can't do demos out here, I may not ever separate my canopy. There's a good chance that when it is sold, it will be sold as a complete unit. Is there a good reason to regularly disassemble it, one that isn't best handled by an inspection by a master rigger at repack time? Clearly, my instructors at the 3 different dropzones on 3 different continents where I've trained have not considered this to be crucial in any way, and they definitely don't consider me a danger to myself or others because I've never done it. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

A danger to himself and others because he doesn't know how to disassemble his canopy? Can you be any more dramatic? I didn't realise there was a trend of jumpers going in because they didn't know how their canopy hooked to the risers. I'm not an instructor, but I've read a lot of the incidents forums and see a lot of, "if only he'd chosen a more suitable canopy", "if only he'd had a helmet", "if only he'd had a RSL", etc. I have not seen a whole lot of, "if only he knew how his rigger had connected his steering lines to the toggles", "if only he knew the difference between a slink and a rapid link", etc. Can you please point to all of the incidents caused by these dangerous jumpers who have never attached or detached a canopy by themselves, and have only had it done by a master rigger? Especially the ones in which they became a danger to others due to their ignorance, as you imply becomes the case. You and Chris are way out of line. Chris is probably still upset about the way he got humiliated over the Vigil thing in that other thread, and wasn't even able to "man-up" and apologise properly. He's being as mean as I've ever seen somebody be to a person who totally didn't deserve it. Ironically, this forum is apparently the first place where he learned of the new Vigil parameters, though he chose to reject the news and attack the messenger instead. As for you, popsjumper, I have no idea what your problem is. You're being completely nuts. Stop trashing this forum as a means of getting information. When I received a suggestion from my instructor to make a pretty aggressive choice of main canopy, I came here for further consultation. It's here where I learned that it was in fact too much for me, saw the Brian Germain chart, the Billvon checklist, etc. Don't assume that the best advice only comes from your DZ personnel, because sometimes it sucks. And you know what? People can view stuff online AND learn it in person. I've learned to pack from several instructors, and also watched the PD pros pack on YouTube. Everybody does it differently. I learned something on the PD videos about the slider that nobody at my DZ had taught me. There is a Gear and Rigging forum for a reason. And until Billvon posts a stickie at the top of this forum that says, "Please no newbie rigging questions here. Consult your rigger or read a rigging book, and be gone with you", we will continue to use it in this way. And if you don't like it? I suggest you and Chris don't read this section of the site anymore. Who can tell me, what is the USPA's recommendation or BSR for grounding jumpers who don't know how their canopy connects to and disconnects from the risers? If it's such a safety issue, DZ's around the globe should be grounding jumpers who can't pass a practical test. As nobody at my DZ seems to think it's an issue even worth mentioning, and as popsjumper is against following advice received on the internet over that received from one's home DZ, I guess I can safely ignore him, right? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Thanks. I'll be receiving my first gear within a few months, but it will all be assembled and packed up at the container factory, so I won't get to observe the process. I'll be sure to take a look at the manual when the gear comes. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Can you publish the YouTube link, please? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Hi masterrigger1, I agree with John here. You two are not the only people reading this. I'm new and trying to learn as much as I can. If you feel you have some experimental results that will be of benefit to the community, I respectfully request that you please do present them. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Respect to his instructors for taking the time to learn to work with him, and to UPT for the custom rig. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Um...if the unit was made in 1996, it's expired by Airtec rules. 12 yrs + 3 months max for a Cypres 1. You can trade it in for a $90 credit on a new one, but thats about it. Yes, but that wasn't the case in 2004, when the OP posed this question. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

As amusing as the comments were, if you're going to tease the non-native English speaker on their first post here, try to at least give some proper advice after. It took Joey, of all people, to provide some appropriate input to this beginner. Let's just hope Joey doesn't also advise on canopy selection "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Are you planning to continue to learn to skydive after this jump? If you think an extra $80 is "way too much" for a skydiving add-on, especially after only paying $40 for a training jump (that's so cheap!), you will not get very far in this activity. I think you should take a very serious look at your finances and the cost of continuing to skydive. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Or worse yet, the Scott Lutz thing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV-wWegKpvs "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I'm trying to think of something funny, but the others beat me to it. Anyway, if something does happen to you, do you want their first time learning of this to be getting a phone call saying you're dead or badly injured from skydiving? That isn't cool, in my opinion. I'd feel pretty shitty if somebody I cared about did that kind of thing to me. I like the education idea somebody mentioned earlier. Sit them down with one of your videos, watch it together, talk about it. Tell them about the parts of the gear, the procedures, etc. That may help. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Sorry to hear about your rig, but I found this part amusing. If you sell your Wings in an instant and order a Vector3, what are you going to jump for the 10 months in between? Their wait time, not including shipping, is a shocking 40 weeks and they don't have stock rigs. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I thought it was a terrorist fist jab. Fox News said so. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Wait a minute..... I did some research months ago about B12's, and found comments on this board such as, "not recommended for most jumpers", "another potential failure point", "only for the physically handicapped who can not do step-through harnesses", etc. THAT'S why I dismissed them. Do some of you actually prefer them? And somebody just wrote that they tighten the leg straps before the chest strap. I used to do it that way until just last weekend, when a more experienced jumper (still low-time, but more experienced than me) suggested to always do the chest strap first because of the way the position of the rig changes on your body when the leg straps are tight, or something like that. Is there an accepted "correct" sequence to do this in? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Unless I'm missing something about how this video got online, he deserves some credit for posting it so that others might learn. He could have suppressed it and made an excuse. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I can't offer much in general, only my own story. I got my original licence from the APF years ago, but didn't jump there after that, so I guess I'm a part of the case study. I was only traveling in Australia at the time, had to go back to Canada. I also emptied my wallet to take the course, I literally couldn't afford even one more jump when I was finished (was juggling balances between credit cards to make payments, and all of them were dangerously close to their limits). It could have been a one-time thing, just for the experience, but I got back in recently, just not in Australia. One thing they might want to do is to mail the licences to the correct place. I asked them to mail it to my address in Canada, but they addressed the envelope to Canada Bay, New South Wales! WTF?! After waiting a couple of months I had to call and ask for a replacement, then the original one arrived long after that, with the Canada Bay address on it. Thanks to both national postal services for figuring out what to do with the envelope. "If you couldn't jump with others before completing another training table would you see this as discouragement to continue jumping?" No, it wouldn't. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Thanks so much for this, Andy. I know it's tough to admit your mistake(s) publicly. It would have been easier and less embarrassing to keep quiet, especially considering the earful (screenful?) you're going to get about your choice of canopy. But this story will likely have a benefit to somebody, sometime. They won't even realise that your confession is what saved them from serious injury or death, but it will have done just that. I wish you a speedy and complete recovery. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Thank you, mods! Troll is getting pretty tiresome. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Good points floormonkey, thanks for the input. Regardless of the results of the poll, PD is going to be consulted before the order is complete. They've (or rather, their rep on email has) been highly recommending the Optimum so far. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Ha! You Americans (and foreign jumpers in the USA) have no idea how spoiled you are. PD doesn't send demo canopies overseas, according to their website. The rest of us are stuck going by word of mouth and copious internet reading, which is another reason for me to reach out to all y'all. But your voice is nearly unanimous with the others in the poll, so it seems it will be the larger Optimum for me. This is the result I was expecting. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Thanks. I am in contact with PD already. I figured an appeal to a wider group might be a good idea. When you contact a manufacturer of any item in any industry, they might be more interested in selling the most expensive product. Also, I've already learned that the idea about Dacron providing any benefit at all is not unanimous. One manufacturer I spoke to called it "obsolete", while another highly recommends it. So getting a wider opinion seems appropriate. I'm sure both options would be absolutely great, but I'm wondering if I can get just a little edge here. Am I more likely to have a hard reserve opening and wish I had Dacron, or am I more likely to wish I had a little extra square footage for the advantages it offers? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

No thanks, not a concern. :-) Your advice about the large reserve being nice was read and noted. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth