JeffCa

Calm down Doug. Yes, I wrote that it's off-base to tell somebody they need a canopy course to pull their rear risers or to try a turn from half brakes. These things are required for the A-licence in many places, which is typically done before the canopy course, and all students must do them. I was encouraged to do these things on my own after I was off radio. I really do not think going into half brakes and attempting a turn is going to kill him. Do you? Do you honestly think that pulling a toggle hard or exploring a little tug on your rears to feel the glide change is a technique that should not be attempted by students? Sure, talk to an instructor beforehand, as you do with many things, but it has to be done to get your A. If you object to my advice about a spiral, don't discredit my entire post, which had a main message of not being afraid of the canopy or thinking he might somehow break it, which was his original fear. The original comment was "I see people coming down in spirals, of course I'm not going to do this (well at least not till I have my own parachute), but can I do more drastic turns? And can a chute collapse under such maneuvers? Or can it take quite a lot?" Do you think it's overly-cautious to wait until one has their own parachute before attempting spirals or "drastic turns"? Would you like to tell me "what happens" if a student checks their airspace, checks that they're up high, then spirals a few times under canopy? Is it death? Disaster? Armageddon? I did it many times in two countries under 2 different licencing systems, nobody ever said anything or indicated that it was inappropriate. Perhaps because a Navigator 280 really doesn't give high-performance results. YMMV, but my instructors seemed fine with it. A good idea about the stall? I don't think he can stall it. I also don't recall telling him to stall, I suggested that it likely wasn't possible. Going back and reading my original comment, I see how it was unclear and can be misinterpreted, but a key word as I meant it was "try" to stall it (ie. pull down both toggles to maximum). My instructors told me the typical student canopies will not stall, and mine certainly didn't come close. No stall = no stall recovery training needed. Of course, as always, ask your instructor. Is that your entire objection? That I didn't say to do these things but ask your instructors first? Asking your instructors first is implicit to any change or attempting a lot of things for the first time as a student. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I guess I should qualify my situation a bit. My first time doing an A-licence, it was a small Cessna dropzone. There was only me and one other parachute in the sky. If I knew where that other chute was (and we generally stayed far from each other), we were good. The landing area was also huge. So I did spirals without getting scolded. It was probably my favourite memory of that entire course. When I started again this year and did another A-licence, it was at a dropzone with a large landing area and a very separate student landing area far from the main one. Many times I was the only canopy around. I was in the holding area by 4,000 feet, the experienced jumpers were already stowing their brakes or in their pattern, so what else should I do? I had some fun with 3-5 spirals, always stopping above 2,000 feet. Canopy collisions could not have been an issue. Nobody said anything at all to me about it, and I always felt I was being encouraged to play around and learn about my chute up high. Of course, you should always ask your instructor before you do something if you're not sure. I take that as a given and would never argue it. The comment before mine suggested that the jumper consult an instructor. So my first words in my original comment indicated that I was not an instructor, and I hope that my advice is taken with that in mind. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

For doing what exactly? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Please don't do that stuff without taking a canopy course first to have the proper instruction to stall your canopy and recover it. Especially don't attempt the spirals when your AAD is set on student, you are still learning how to set up proper landing patterns, and look out for traffic. I foresee bad things happening... Ask your instructors do what they say. As another poster already wrote, this is off-base. You don't need a canopy course to pull your toggles hard and tug your risers up high. Much of this is required for A-licences in the 2 countries where I have taken those courses. Spiraling a few times is not an issue (with clear airspace), and at student pull heights is just fine. The AAD will not activate so high. Why did you think I was encouraging spiraling at +/- 1000 feet? I wrote "up high" twice. I was doing this stuff at 4,000 feet as a student. A student canopy will also not stall so easily, pull the toggles as hard as you want up high and see what happens. I wasn't able to stall either my student canopy or my first rental with regular toggle pulls, even at full arm extension. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Not an instructor, but these are my thoughts. Don't be afraid of it! It's a student canopy, it can probably take anything you could possibly think of doing with it. I tried everything I could think of with mine when I was up high. Check your airspace, then pull down hard with one side, as hard as you can, and do 5 or 6 spirals. Feel what happens to your body when you spin hard for so long. Try pulling out of spins by letting up on that toggle, and then try getting out next time by pulling hard on the other toggle. Pull your rear risers as hard as you can and feel it flatten the glide. Pull your fronts, if you can, they're fricking hard to move on large canopies. Try going to half brakes with both toggles and turning by pulling one toggle down even further. Then do the same with both toggles starting at 75% brakes. Feel the difference in the turns? Pull down both toggles as hard as you can and try to stall it. My understanding is that student canopies generally cannot be stalled with normal pulls, and mine couldn't. I had to wrap the steering lines around my hands to get enough pull to stall. Feel how slow and quiet the canopy becomes when both arms are pulled down as far as they can possibly go without dislocating your shoulders. It's pretty cool. You're up high, so even if you did manage to screw something up, you'll get to experience your first reserve ride. My own first canopy has just arrived and very soon I'll be trying all of these things on it for the first time to learn how it flies. (Beer!) "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

This is exactly how I felt! I was always much more concerned with the performance aspect, I had full confidence that I could save my own life. In AFF, you're under constant pressure to perform tasks with up to 2 instructors watching you, and if you screw one up, you might fail the jump. When you finally get off of AFF, you can relax somewhat for your solos. For example, if you don't stop a turn in time, nobody is going to criticise you on the ground and make you repeat the jump. They won't even see it. You're free to just enjoy the jump with much less pressure. OP, enjoy your solos! "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Another thing to consider is that of those who leave, you don't know who will be back. I did my first jump as a licenced jumper 10 years after I got my A. The situation was not suitable for me until then. Now I intend to be around for at least a few years, jumping most weekends, and have just invested in my first gear. My girlfriend began her A-licence training but we pulled the plug on it. She was plenty brave and enthusiastic, but not very good. Not very good in ways that made her dangerous to herself and possibly to others. She would certainly improve with practice. But would she improve first, or would she break her legs first? As I've seen it put on this forum, would her skill jar fill before her luck jar emptied? In the end, we decided together that she should call it a career and retire before completing her A. It's not for everyone. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

At least 2 companies make brand new custom rigs with basic options for around $1,500. I just ordered one. No worrying about my size or the size of my canopies in a used container, it's all specified by me. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I do that too, to the young ladies. They keep screaming for me to get lost. I try to explain that it's for their own safety. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

You just wrote exactly what I forgot to write in my last post and came back to write. I think the OP mostly gets it, but I'm going to respond for other newbies who might find this thread someday. Everything, his entire case, relies on predictions of the future with percentages and best-case reasoning. For example, even if he takes the weight off, he might get depressed again and put it back on. Then the chop-will-come-later reasoning? This is silly. I bought equipment that I am ready to jump NOW. Note the period after the NOW. No buts, no ifs, no maybes, no 75%. I am ready for my gear NOW. And it will be ready for me in August. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I wouldn't say he's not listening completely. He seems to understand that he's in a bit of a position here. Unfortunately, there are 2 major obstacles: 1. His plan relies on him losing a large amount of weight in a fairly short time in order to be reasonably compatible with conventional safety wisdom. Many people put weight on and are unable to take it off. 2. He made an error when he bought the container too early, and seems to stubbornly want to hang on to it. It is limiting his choice of canopies to potentially unsafe sizes, evidenced by his statement that he "had to" choose between the 176 and the 160 reserve. IMVeryHO, the best thing he could do would be to "reset" and sell what he has now, especially the container. The main might be OK to keep, but only if he loses the weight. If he paid a reasonable price for it, he can probably recover the entire amount or very close to it. Then when he knows what weight he'll be at, he should try to find a more appropriate container to put his canopies in. This is why they say to choose your canopies then find a container to fit them, not the other way around, right? My friend, don't let one poor decision, buying an inappropriate container too early, lead you into several more bad decisions. Take responsibility for the first decision and cut it away, allowing you to make more suitable choices. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I don't have much more experience than you, but I've looked at all of the resources available to me for canopy selection, and can offer this to think about. To add to what Billvon wrote, your canopy choices are not wise so far. With your Pulse 190, you are already in gross violation of both the Germain chart (recommends a 230 for you until you are approaching 200 jumps) and the manufacturer's recommendation (recommends 190 for you only if you are "expert", although the PD charts are ridiculously conservative sometimes). You're talking about an even smaller reserve, which would put you much more in violation. Is the issue that these canopies are the largest that will fit in your container? If yes, sell it and get a more appropriately-sized container! I'm more than 50 pounds lighter than you, and I'm jumping the same size main and bought a much larger reserve, with more experience than you say you'll have, even in a longest-wait scenario, when you begin jumping your new rig. You confess that the 210's descent rate somewhat frightens you. I already know what people will say on here if anything happens to you, and it goes something like the following: "He shouldn't have been on that canopy to begin with!" "WTF was he thinking and who advised him this was a good idea?" "He was already too heavily-loaded on his main and he goes and gets an even SMALLER reserve?" "Just another newbie with mad skillz who thought it couldn't happen to him." "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I don't have any experience under reserves, so take my advice with that in consideration. Anyway, I just bought my first reserve and went with an Optimum that puts me well under 1.0 WL, around 0.83. I took advantage of the smaller pack volume to increase the size that I could put in my container. If I'm unconscious like our friend Brian was recently, I want my best chance, and I think the huge reserve gives that to me. Check Brian's thread here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4503898;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; Anyway, if somebody was suggesting putting me under a reserve at the WL you'll be at on a 160, especially at your/my experience level, I'd be inclined to completely ignore their advice. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

300 jumps? Seriously? I guess it's never too late to join SoFPiDaRF. Better late than never. I told my AFF instructor when I showed up for my FJC that I was a member. I thought AFF stood for Advanced Flying and Flare. I was scolded after AFF3 for coming in on my toggles. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

An ad in the newspaper for a FJC is how I ended up doing my first jump. Doesn't make it a common practice, but it can be and has been done. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Paging Brian Germain. Paging Dr. Brian Germain. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Why not create such an award? It can be called the "First Annual JeffCa Award for Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Thread Creating". "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

My DZ gave me a rental discount for ordering through them. But I think a lot of people are going to agree that it's important to support your local shop. It's good for the DZ where it's located, and also good to support a local place where you can go to try stuff on before you buy, etc. The prices my dealer offered don't vary that much from the prices found online. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I just bought my first canopy, but have not taken delivery yet. It will have a wingloading of about 0.95. I used the combined wisdom of members of this site, the manufacturer's recommendation, my instructors, and the Brian Germain chart in making my decision. Luckily, all are in general agreement. I've never jumped a canopy smaller than the one I bought, and am a little frightened to try at this point in my progression. My DZ doesn't seem to have the "downsizing culture", and my canopy should do me well for a few years, given that I can only do in the range of 75-150 jumps per year. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

So how much are we all being subsidised by tandems? If tandems were banned tomorrow, how much would our fun jump tickets have to cost for the average DZ to be worthwhile to run? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

What about waiting until 1,000 feet to pull, knowing that the reserve was also coming out? Which video? I missed that, but can't believe that was done. Are you sure an offset wasn't entered on the aad to simulate the situation? It's in the 7th video, two times, but seems it's the same event doubled-up. Check it out at 0:45. What do you think of the altitude from looking at the ground? Looks low, but I'm not sure if it's 1,000 feet low. I guess a simulation makes more sense, but they've done a lot of crazy shit in those videos. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

What about waiting until 1,000 feet to pull, knowing that the reserve was also coming out? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

They do it at my DZ, but it isn't 1:1. I think you have to bring in 2 tandems to get a free jump. There's a stamp card. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Even The Rock? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuZ2-KYFfkA Twardo knows how to clicky! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuZ2-KYFfkA Damnit, I hit the underline button instead of the URL button. How embarrassing. I know how to make a clicky, I swear! "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Even The Rock? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuZ2-KYFfkA "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth