superstu

I was at a DZ this past weekend where there was almost another canopy collision. this DZ has seperate landing area's for high performance and conventianal landings, a "no greater than 180 degree" rule in the main landing area, and a "first person down sets the direction". in this instance the first person down set a cross wind landing (winds were shifting a little bit), as others landed one jumper initiated a 180 turn to landing in the set cross wind landing and as this person rolled out another person doing a standard landing patter decided to land in to the wind which meant he was cutting off everyone else landing in the proper direction including this swooper. as the person who did the 180 planned out from their turned they were aware enough to turn and avoid the collision. the person doing the standard approach was clueless until they were talked to. kind of goes to show that it's not the pattern as much as the pilot...kind of like swooping or landing in general, it's not the parachute that makes people good it's the pilot. in this situation the key preventing factor should have been education. the jumper that landed in to the wind and cut everyone off needs to understand the importance of everyone landing the same direction, how to land cross wind if necessary, and also just how to be more aware. to all you tandem, AFF, S/L instructors, and experienced canopy coaches, these fundementals MUST be taught right from the begining. if they aren't then it might cost you more than you expect. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

I was at a DZ this past weekend where there was almost another canopy collision. this DZ has seperate landing area's for high performance and conventianal landings, a "no greater than 180 degree" rule in the main landing area, and a "first person down sets the direction". in this instance the first person down set a cross wind landing (winds were shifting a little bit), as others landed one jumper initiated a 180 turn to landing in the set cross wind landing and as this person rolled out another person doing a standard landing patter decided to land in to the wind which meant he was cutting off everyone else landing in the proper direction including this swooper. as the person who did the 180 planned out from their turned they were aware enough to turn and avoid the collision. the person doing the standard approach was clueless until they were talked to. kind of goes to show that it's not the pattern as much as the pilot...kind of like swooping or landing in general, it's not the parachute that makes people good it's the pilot. in this situation the key preventing factor should have been education. the jumper that landed in to the wind and cut everyone off needs to understand the importance of everyone landing the same direction, how to land cross wind if necessary, and also just how to be more aware. to all you tandem, AFF, S/L instructors, and experienced canopy coaches, these fundementals MUST be taught right from the begining. if they aren't then it might cost you more than you expect. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

i have had a chance to jump quite a few different RDS's out there including some prototype stuff and with pretty much all of them when i had the full RDS on it slowed down the openings a little when pulling subterminal. however, the one i'm jumping right now(http://www.peaengineering.com/rds.htm)seems to be the most consistant and best opening thus far. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

Hey ckscuba i think others have already touched/ answered on the major aspects of your questions. however, i think it's also important that you and other "up and comers" know that the XAOS platform is still very much an extreme wing. don't think that just because it's not the newest technology out there that it's safe for just anyone to fly. the best peice of advice i can give you over the internet is to build up your foundation of skills (proper flight patterns, flaring, ect), do your research (which you're kind of doing right now), and try to be patient (this shit doesn't happen overnight). be safe bro... Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

always the planner Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

yup, my thoughts exactly Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

yeah, i'm in the same boat. let me know how it goes Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

i know of a few people out here on the west coast (USA) that do this but they usually have the standard 20-21" risers. i have 23's and don't have any issues with performance reaching all the way to the slinks but it might be kind of interesting to try. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

out of curiousity, for those of you who use this set up how long are your risers? Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

ha ha ha...the 285's aint workin uh? this is the same problem i had with my "other" parachute remember kimmie? when i asked about it they said sometimes it's how it's sewn. send them back to get fixed Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

also wanted to add that i wore the data logger behind my back in very close proximity to where a normal cypress would be held in a rig. also, these jumps were done at sea level on a normal windy 80 degree florida day. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

had a chance to jump an airtec data logger couple weekends ago with my velo 90 at 2.35 doing a 450. highest speed was 82+mph which occured just under 300'. also had a 74mph run that occured right at 250' just thought i'd share my experiences. Note: i am NOT starting my 450 turn at 250-300' so don't try that, it will kill you. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

from the weekend Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

oh i'm sorry, i guess i wasn't supposed to say anything when i am passionate about something, my bad, next time i'll keep my mouth shut. oh and as far as i know no one other than me has pulled my pilotchute or has saved my life besides me. so you can go ahead and have SDAZ keep you alive, but i think i'll keep myself alive. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

it will be interesting to see the next ban they implement when the next canopy collision occurs even though all the "swoopers" are gone. my bet would be no more steerable parachutes. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

this isn't directly directed at you bill, but your post was the last i looked at. another concern of mine are jumpers that are loaded in the "lighter" category of maybe 1.4 and below opening up at the same altitude as everyone on the load yet they decide to spiral right over the landing area (very unpredictable pattern) and get below everyone then THEY create the hazard on themselves and to others. yes, the low person has the right away but that does NOT give them the right to take up the whole sky and create a hazard to themselves and others that are above them. if you don't feel comfortable with having people above you then maybe help the situation by sitting in brakes for a little bit practiciing your flat turns while you let the little pocket parachutes do there thing. now i'm not saying do this all the way to the ground but maybe until you reach the begining of your landing pattern which generally starts any where from 700-1000'. shit i do this all the time when i pull high and catch back up to tandems or students that pull at 4.5k, i'll sit in brakes and enjoy the scenery for a little bit and let them land so they're not in my way and i'm not in theirs. take the initiative apon your self to fly safer and be less of a threat. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

Duplicate post removed; please see original in Canopy Control thread. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

Edited to remove duplicate post. The points you make are valid ones, but you've posted the same thing three times in three different threads. Best to just make one post at a time. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

i don't even know where to post this cause there's so many damn threads on this but here it goes. if we brake down why we have collisions to the simplest form you would say that 2 objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time. then we can say that the probability of 2 objects occupying the same space goes up depending on multiple factors: the total amount of space (the actual landing area and the vertical area above that), the AMOUNT of objects in that given space (the more canopies the more likely a collision), reaction times (faster objects have to have faster reactions, or think in advance, to avoid collision). has anyone looked at opening altitudes? if someone is loading a canopy at 2.0 opens at 3.5k while someone who loads a canopy at 1.0 opens at 2.5k there's going to be a problem. why? because as the altitude goes down the amount of "working/flying" space also goes downs so now your condensing the same amount of canopies but in a smaller area. now put into the fact that a DZ like eloy or perris for example have little strips of grass that EVERYONE aims for, now you've just condensed your space even more. so why don't we incorporate opening altitudes as well, for example you pull below 3k you're grounded because you're creating a hazard condensing the airspace over the DZ. if 2 people deploy at 3.5k and one is at 2.0 and the othe at 1.0 there will be less of a problem because that person at 2.0 is gonna come down like a rock no matter what and will create that natural seperation. why do you think the organizers of the big RW ways have seperate brake off altitudes? it's not just for opening issues. also, has anyone looked at the type of DZ's these collisions primarily happen at? Eloy is a big DZ, dublin had a boogie with a lot of people attending, collisions on opening becauase there were many other people in the air, all these things have something in common...many many people in the air at the same time and all trying to land or occupy the same spot at the same time. now you might say that the eloy accident involving the military guy and student didn't have a lot of people in the air, but due to the small condensed landing area that people aim for coupled with the improper landing pattern of one of the individuals shit hit the fan. so really SDAZ is partly to blame because consciously or not they have made people fly closer together because how they set up their landing area with only tiny strips of grass. it's completely ludicris to say swoopers are the primary cause or that a 270 is the primary cause, because i can generate way more speed and power on a 90 degree than most can on a 270 turn. i do FULLY agree however that there is a time and place for doing a larger degree of turn and when there are a bunch of canopies with pilots of varying skills are that is NOT the best place to do it. i also fully agree that at boogies or large events there should be restrictions. hell, i usually jump at what is considered a small DZ and i still pull either waaaayy higher or do a hop n pop just because i don't want a hazard in my way and i don't want to be a hazard. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

i don't even know where to post this cause there's so many damn threads on this but here it goes. if we brake down why we have collisions to the simplest form you would say that 2 objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time. then we can say that the probability of 2 objects occupying the same space goes up depending on multiple factors: the total amount of space (the actual landing area and the vertical area above that), the AMOUNT of objects in that given space (the more canopies the more likely a collision), reaction times (faster objects have to have faster reactions, or think in advance, to avoid collision). has anyone looked at opening altitudes? if someone is loading a canopy at 2.0 opens at 3.5k while someone who loads a canopy at 1.0 opens at 2.5k there's going to be a problem. why? because as the altitude goes down the amount of "working/flying" space also goes downs so now your condensing the same amount of canopies but in a smaller area. now put into the fact that a DZ like eloy or perris for example have little strips of grass that EVERYONE aims for, now you've just condensed your space even more. so why don't we incorporate opening altitudes as well, for example you pull below 3k you're grounded because you're creating a hazard condensing the airspace over the DZ. if 2 people deploy at 3.5k and one is at 2.0 and the othe at 1.0 there will be less of a problem because that person at 2.0 is gonna come down like a rock no matter what and will create that natural seperation. why do you think the organizers of the big RW ways have seperate brake off altitudes? it's not just for opening issues. also, has anyone looked at the type of DZ's these collisions primarily happen at? Eloy is a big DZ, dublin had a boogie with a lot of people attending, collisions on opening becauase there were many other people in the air, all these things have something in common...many many people in the air at the same time and all trying to land or occupy the same spot at the same time. now you might say that the eloy accident involving the military guy and student didn't have a lot of people in the air, but due to the small condensed landing area that people aim for coupled with the improper landing pattern of one of the individuals shit hit the fan. so really SDAZ is partly to blame because consciously or not they have made people fly closer together because how they set up their landing area with only tiny strips of grass. it's completely ludicris to say swoopers are the primary cause or that a 270 is the primary cause, because i can generate way more speed and power on a 90 degree than most can on a 270 turn. i do FULLY agree however that there is a time and place for doing a larger degree of turn and when there are a bunch of canopies with pilots of varying skills are that is NOT the best place to do it. i also fully agree that at boogies or large events there should be restrictions. hell, i usually jump at what is considered a small DZ and i still pull either waaaayy higher or do a hop n pop just because i don't want a hazard in my way and i don't want to be a hazard. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

yeah, i'll be in oregon this weekend Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

very nice jason. glad we had a chance to talk a little bit...stu Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

so what are people's thoughts on this? do you think this will drive out some of the more proficient canopy pilots and canopy coaches thus lowering the knowledge being passed down to other current and future pilots? are they hoping to cut down on canopy collisions by removing the 180 or greater turn? will this really help the situation? edited to add: i'm not trying to start anything because i know i don't know the whole story or the entire situation but it looks like changes are in the making. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

All of Team FASTRAX Swoop will be there for this one. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

at skydive oregon they have their "pond side" where one can do any type of turn they want (90, 180, 270, 450, 1170, ect). then they have their "main landing area" where you're not allowed to do more than a 180 degree turn. they are very strict in the enforcement of these rules and usually the DZO or the S&TA give a warning or depending on the severity of the incident completely kicked off the DZ. everyone at the DZ respects these rules and no one is an exception. not sure if this will help anyone, but maybe it'll give some of you DZO's an idea of how to prevent canopy collisions at your dz. i also encourage DZO's to work together, if you know of a drop zone that has good rules regarding canopy traffic call them up and see how they structure it or put it together. i think if we all work together we'll be able to take care of this situation. Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down