CanuckInUSA

You can't just landing into the wind at Eloy's north landing area can you? No you can't. If you want to landing in that landing area you're going either east or west (no exceptions if you don't want to get Burke'd or Betsy'ed). Besides, if the winds exceed our limitations, should we really be jumping? It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Hey Dave my point wasn't the actual technique of crosswind landings since yes the two wings are different and I'm under the firm impression that landing an airplane requires much more mental multi-tasking skills whereas landing a canopy is more reactionary. The crux of my point is that segregated bi-directional landing lanes are needed and that we need to get all skydivers (not just students) to not be afraid of landing crosswind. If the WX exceeds someone's limits, then sit this jump out. Plus the fact that I think AFF is just not the way to do things. PS: It's funny that as we gain experience in both disciplines that we find ourselves sitting on the ground waiting for the WX to change versus our desire to play no matter what when we were new. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

The longer I stay in this sport, the more and more I come to the conclusion that we are doing a piss poor job training people to be safe(r) skydivers. I’ve come to the conclusion that AFF is not way to be initially training people and that the old static line methods appear to be so much superior. Oh and for the record I am an AFF graduate. But I was also licensed private pilot before I started jumping, so I already knew much of the aerodynamics all aviators should know (yes we are aviators as long as we are using canopies to get us safely back to the ground) and I was already used to flying a pattern and landing in crosswind conditions. Why is AFF in its current iteration so wrong? Well because from the get go there is far too much emphasis on freefall and little emphasis on canopy control. Shouldn’t we be training people to become competent canopy pilots before we train them to become freefallers? If the new student wants to experience freefall, take them on a tandem. But they need to learn better canopy control before we teach them freefall. It’s not like AFF needs to be thrown out the window (AFF instructors can still be utilized). It’s a valid way to be training people freefall skills. But the current minimum 7 jumper iteration does a piss poor job of training people on how to fly canopies. Shouldn’t there be some sort of static line training progression and then once cleared as competent canopy control pilots, introduce the student to AFF? WTF people? Is the only thing that matters to the DZOs of this world the almighty dollar and getting students off of AFF as soon as possible? We need segregated landing lanes for fast and slow canopies in this sport. But some people argue that we shouldn’t be forcing students into crosswind landing scenarios. I say (partial) baloney in this regard. Students should not be subject to high crosswind components early on in their jump careers. But student airplane pilots are forced from the get go to get used to crosswind landings. They are however grounded when the crosswind component exceeds certain limitations. So why shouldn’t student canopy pilots also not be grounded when the crosswinds exceed certain limitations? If we had people not freaking out from the get go about crosswinds, we could introduce segregated bi-directional landing lanes and this sport would take a step in the right direction towards solving some of the recent issues we’ve been experiencing. Instead of lobbying your governing organization to ban things like “swooping” or certain turn types, you need to be lobbying these organizations to come up with better methods to train all skydivers to become better aviators and to lobby the DZs to setup segregated bi-direction landing lanes. This way people interested in expressing themselves in the higher risk realms of high performance canopy flight of the fast lane can do so knowing that they will only be dealing with fellow fast canopies. And those people looking for more predictable, more docile landing pattern scenarios need not worry about being buzzed by some hot shot. It’s a win-win scenario for most people and may allow our sport to evolve instead of shrink. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Student aviation pilots do not have the luxury of always landing into the wind. Yes it can be argued that while they are students, these pilots are accompanied by a qualified instructors in the cockpit and it is up to the instructors disgression as to when and where the student can attempt their landings. But once released as solo's the student is still limited as to when and where they may fly based on crosswind calculations. While training to become pilots, there is a huge emphasis on landing training. Why is it that we in the skydiving world can not do the same. We do things backwards in skydiving (at least for AFF training). We emphasis freefall training and speak very little about canopy control. Why? In these bi-directional landing lanes I speak of where all jumpers must learn to crosswind their landings (just like a runway), we need to emphasis to all jumpers that if the WX exceeds their limitations, then people need to follow that "It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air rather than being in the air wishing you were on the ground" saying. I was a pilot before I started skydiving so I knew about all these things ahead of time. But I'm sorry the longer I stay in this sport, the more flaws I see in AFF and how we train new people. We really need to be training people canopy control from the get go and introduce freefall skills to them later on in the training. Why aren't we doing this? Money? That's my guess ... AFF is all about taking people's money it seems ... PS: my first solo flying airplanes in the pattern wasn't nearly as much of a monumental accomplishment compared my first solo cross-country flight. The solo cross-country flight was a sureal experience. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Contrary to what you may think, goal oriented swoopers (you know the ones who have a target like a set of entry gates on a dedicated swoop course) fly the same pattern you speak of except to say that our altitudes are higher that the ones you think of. Swooping (for the serious swooper) isn't just about pulling down on a riser and hoping for the best. It's about flying as consistent of a pattern that we can fly to our setup points adjusting for the WX conditions as we go, then evaluating our altitude once we get to the setup point and whipping out the appropriate tool from the toolbox of tricks to get ourselves down to the entry gates. Note: serious swoopers wear visual digital altimeters (some use audio ones as well even though I prefer visual) which help us guage our progress in our patterns and give us the much needed altitude information we need to know what tool can be used at the setup point. Sure once in the turn it's all visual, but swooping is evolving into a science and isn't just about pulling down on any old riser like some people seem to think. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Iran is a state controlled by radical Islamic fundamentalists and we know radical Islam is hell bent on the destruction of western civilization. The USA and Britian are imperialistic powers hell bent on conquering strategic parts of the world for their own selfish economic interests. Satisfied? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Don't quote me, but I seem to remember hearing something along the line of 1 out of every 100,000 jumps ends in a fatality. But that includes all jumps tandems, students, work jumps, training jumps and fun jumps. Oh and I'm much more likely to meet my maker in this sport then you are since I am much more likely to take chances that you wouldn't. Damn the curse of holding a "D" license. But rest assured. There is a 100% probability that your life on this planet as we know it will end one day. But I'm sure you already knew that. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

I know Ian doesn't want too much more banter going on. So this will be my last banter post in this thread. But I had a brain fart earlier. Smiley is going to have to be Tom Phillips bitch, not Tom Sanders. I'm sure he knew who I was referring to. But just in case ... no more swooping for Smiley ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

It should also be extended to include the discussion of incompatible airspace below 2k for fast and slow canopies. Not to sound like a broken record here, but I actually am kind of on your guys side when it comes to some of these issues. Ask anyone who's been around me these last couple of years and they will tell you that I turn down a lot of freefall jumps because I want to swoop but I'm not a fan of swooping in traffic. I've had my close calls (some my fault, some other people's fault). You know I had my goals to get onto the PST and compete against the best (even if that means finishing near the bottom of the standings) and I knew my goals weren't going to happen if I was a training in traffic. I wish more swoopers would realize that if they really want to get better, they need to segregate themselves from traffic. But unfortunately some people insist on having and eating their cake all at once. Anyway ... I digress ... We need seperate bi-directional landing lanes with no fly zones in between us. One of the things I've always liked about Eloy's main "north" landing area was that the canopy pilots had to land east or west (depending on the direction the first landing canopy set). Don't like crosswind landings at Eloy? Go land in the alternate. Part of the problem is also related to people thinking they need to land into the wind. I know (I'm sure you know) this is crap. We can land into the wind, land crosswind and yes even safely land downwind (in fact we competitive swoopers are drooling when distance and speed runs are downwinders). If more DZs adopted bi-directional landing lanes (like a runway) and we seperated landing lanes from fast canopies and slow canopies, then this would be a step in the right direction and the slower more docile canopy pilots need not worry about some jackass swooper crashing into them and of course the more high performance canopy pilot knew there was less chance that a slower canopy would do something they weren't expecting (like over flying the entry gates of a swoop course). The turn can sometimes be an issue, but it's really not the core issue we should be addressing. The core issue is airspace compatibility. Fast landing lanes for fast canopies and slower landing lanes for slower canopies. Crosswind landings (for those who don't know this) are not to be feared. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

It's one thing for someone like Quade to be shitting down the throats of swoopers. I may not agree with the guy, but he has been around long enough and I'm sure has seen his share of this sport to form an opinion as to what swoopers are and are not. But it is another thing for someone new to the sport to be shitting down our throats. Please educate yourself on our discipline of high performance canopy flight before you pass judgement. You never know, maybe one day you'll be a swooper. I know I wasn't supposed to be a swooper when I got into this sport. Swooping just looked far too dangerous to be doing for someone my age. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Didn't Eloy jumpers always have a choice? Wasn't high performance flight always banned from Eloy's secondary landing area? This whole change on their part reminds me of what a politician would say. A whole lot of hot air promises on something the general public wants to hear but is either ineffective and/or something that was already in place but wasn't known by the masses. Banning 270s while allowing 180s in their main landing area is nothing more than a band-aid knee jerk reaction towards fixing this issue. Fast canopies and slow canopies should not co-exist in the same LZ at the same time. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Seperate landing areas are needed not only for turn styles, but they are also needed for canopy speeds. A seasoned swooper under a sub 100 square foot x-braced canopy can harness turn a 90 degree turn and still be coming in faster than someone who did a bigger front riser turn under a larger canopy. When I was learning to swoop under large more docile canopies (I still am learning), swooping on regular loads didn't bug me because the speed across the ground (while high enough to hurt myself) wasn't that fast. But ever since I started jumping x-braced canopies, the speed I traveling across the ground is just too fast at times to be able to react to all situations in your typical LZ (like kids or dogs running in the way, let alone some other landing canopy). Swoopers need to show better judgement on regular loads (like aborting the swoop if there is any traffic), but DZs should not be discouraging swoopers who are trying to practice their trade in controlled environments. We need to segregate our LZs and we need access to low passes and/or high pulls. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

I agree and that is why some of us just don't understand this rule. Of course I'm concerned about the "low passes are not economically viable" attitude spreading to other DZs, but that is another story. If SDAZ was really serious about this issue, no turns above 90s would be allowed. But even then this wouldn't address all the issues. Under a small sub 100 square foot canopy I can harness turn a 90 from 400-600 feet and still be coming in faster than someone who made a bigger turn under a larger canopy. Fast canopies and slow canopies are not compatible with each other in the same landing area. That is why Cessna type airplanes are discouraged from landing at class Bravo airports. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

yep, now i will feel ok to jump there. How do you feel about a canopy flying right at you and then turning at the last possible moment to swoop? Are you okay with this? If yes, then go the Eloy because they seem to feel 180s are safe while they ban 270s? Why? Don't be a sheep ... think ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

LOL ... that only makes sense. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Dan Self? He's too tall to be a swooper. Cut him off at the knees to be the same height as the rest of us and then let's see how well he does. No swooping for Dan. Striker? I'm not so sure I know Striker? Is he Renfro? If not, then you guys will need to deal with him. But no swooping for anyone named Striker regardless. Speaking of Renfro. Shit I only met the guy the one time last year at SDO, but anyone who can't even get through round #1 without a reserve ride shouldn't be allowed to swoop (though we should give him some credit for trying to swoop his reserve through the entry gates). No Renfro needs to be sent back to packing class and then once proficient he can join you packing tandems (or become Tom's bitch ... his choice). Of course in all of this how could we forget Eldon? I say we should let Eldon continue to swoop. Where else are we going to get our "better him than us" entertainment. Now most of these peeps I speak of are either from the swampy pond of SDO or the rest of you Sno-homer-sexuals. I could pick on the folks down in Kapow. But who am I to tell a bunch of Kapow peeps what to do. They do after all own their own DZ. With that in mind, how cool is that. A DZ owned by a bunch of swoopers. Even their girls are good swoopers. Maybe that's where we can continue to swoop after all the other DZs outlaw us. Swooping is NOT a crime. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

I forgot Gile. He won't be allowed to swoop either. But Brian voluntarily took himself out of the game last year, so he doesn't really count. Sorry Brian. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

I figured that was the only way to get you to pack tandems full time. But rest assurred you and Stu aren't the only ones not allowed to swoop any more. Bryon is in the same boat as you. Pack tandems or be Tom's bitch. I've been banished off into the frozen north never to swoop again (until Global Warming really kicks in), Brad Harris is not off of the hook. He'll be fighting fires from now on 24/7 ... fighting fires in hell. Kelly will be assigned a mirror and he'll be looking at himself 24/7 (maybe he's already doing that) and Todd Higgley will also not be allowed to swoop (I'll leave his punishment up to you guys ...). The only guy who appears to be off the hook is Tom and well who could say "no" to that belly. But fear not, Tom will figure out some way to mess up his chances before the CPC Championships ... again. PS: For everyone else, do not take this post serious ... especially the greenies. Swooping is NOT a crime ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Could be worse Smiley, no more swooping for you either. You've been relegated to being either a full-time Tandem packing bitch or Tom Sander's bitch. Your call ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

No more swooping for you. From now on, you'll be some bellyflier load organizers whopping boy. Please return all of your swooping gear to PD and pick up that Triathlon 220 on your way out. Fly nice predictable patterns and don't forget to flare. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Sounds good to me ... just as long as we're all issued machine guns at the same time. Oh oh, there's that "gun" word. Off to the Speakers Corner with this thread. Is there a DZ.COM record for the number of times a thread has been moved? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Can we ban death? Or would that be considered obtuse? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Have you ever jumped a ultra high performance canopy? If yes then you would know that one 360 degree turn (lets' say in a spinning malfunction on your back) can lose close to 1k of altitude in seconds. Having a bunch of high performance canopies opening up in the basement (with higher malfunction rates than let's say a Triathlon 175) is not such a smart idea. No thank you ... you may consider me to be a low-timer since I've only been in the sport 1/2 as long as you have (I am definitely not a seasoned skydiver who's seen it and done it all) but I'm not that dumb to be thinking your suggestions are workable. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Being able to land crosswind will only make people become better, more competent and more confident canopy pilots. That way if (or should I say when) they are ever faced with a downwind landing (especially on an off field LZ), they won't freak out and do something stupid. Dedicated LZ on DZs should be one way (or 180 degree the other way depending on the wind) just as Eloy's north landing area is. Don't be afraid of crosswind landings people. They're not that big of a deal (and downwinders are even more fun when you know what you're doing). Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

It may not work at all DZs (with smaller landing areas) but I agree that it's a workable start. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over