USPA

Not cheapo, but off the shelf mass batteries. A lithium battery is a lithium battery. The logo printed on the battery doesn't suddely change the laws of physics. Sure, I presumme cypres batteries have a higher QC then off the shelve batteries, but this is only an assumption and don't underestimate the QC of proper (brand) off the shelves. After all, the brands have a name to keep. Also an hint: Cypres doesn't have its own battery factory, where do you think they come from? Lastly because the batteries are not expensive on the Argus you switch them every year, so the batteries don't have to last 2 or 4 years. (although 2 years have been tasted for the argus and function properly). But this is all offtopic. The point is, lithium batteries are affected by temperature difference, this is a law of physics and is the same for every lithium battery is this world. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

This is what made me laugh also about the basik bulletin: and then suddenly he's a electrochemical expert who can the difference between different lithium batteries. (cypres vs argus) The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Technical comittee members and board of the KNVvL (dutch authorities) have made clear this kind of bulletins will be standard for every new AAD or other life saving devices on the market. First 6 to 12 months operating in the field, only allowed for C and D license (more experienced jumpers of whom can be expected to look after themselves and should know what they are doing) and after that gather the data and clear it for general use. Argus just happend to be the first device in which this "rule" is applied. (In retrospect they wanted to do this with the Vigil (and I presume Cypres2?) but were caught by surprise (don't even start... :P ) The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Congrats! I had my first last thursday on my 9th training jump, 1 jump before my tandemmaster exam... :) Lol, it was the first reserve ever for my passenger (experienced jumper). He's a senior rigger and never used a reserve.. :D Now he did... I wonder if it was his packjob btw... It was the famous line over on the EZ, tried to "pump it out" with the steeringline but it was almost on the center cell. Could stop the turn, but was not interested in landing it... So choped it. (almost forgot to peel reserve, but the force needed to pull it reminded me.... ) Very ackward feeling, falling straight down, like a balloon jump. And thought the RSL would activate the reserve a lot sooner, but probably took some time because it was a low speed mal. Also it's very handy to have an experienced (though I think you were a bit scared (if you read this.. ;) ) passenger when you have your hands full of handles... :P The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

I just started to ignore all the avances, it's tiresome but you'll get used to it... narf... The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Wrong, read the report Test is barely conclusive on this point, experiment was fundamently flawed, also see comment below Sources? Circumstances? Production version? Data? Sources? Circumstances? Production version? Data? On Jo Oosterveers homeplay it was set on standaard. I did and was shocked and amazed how poor testing was done. So very wrong, only 1 small manufactorer in france has grounded argus in his rig, because of this test (only done by Jo oosterveer) The only authority in The Netherlands KNVvL has publicly stated it has nothing to do with this report. Also although it is very dificult to be conclusive because of the way Jo likes to write his little reports, it looks like the dutch rigger society VvV does not endorse this report. So now we have a report which isn't endorsed by any governing association, poorly writen by 1 man, with loosy experimental data and very strange conclusions. On top of this the "test" (if you can even call it a test) was most probably done on test-units not avaible to the public (never sold). But since you have even missed a "sticky-thread" surrounding this issue, we should most probably not even take you serious. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Sorry, my mistake, when I reread my post, I see that it offends Basik, but this is not my intension. IMHO the report is flawed, simply because it is not reproducible. There is simply not enough data. There wasn't even a dedicated test jump, and no logging data of the jump in question was provided. Also it's only anyone's gues what the tension on the loop was, totally onaccetable for an official test, fun for home play, but not a serious test. Neither a test protocol is provided, nor were cutters/units tested in an reproducible maner, almost at random. Also in their justification for the tests they comment on a misfire, but are unclear on what misfire, where it happend and why they call it a misfire (since even in the justification it states it was during testing). Then they mimic circumstances it which they place the unit outside design parameters, in which the manufactorer says it will not function properly and conclude it does not function properly. (Wow, what a conclusion!). Furthermore they state they use production units, while Argus states it are pre-production units. Although they place a question mark around this statement, they do not elaborate, nor state why this is questionable. Since I have had the very first production batch of Arguses in my own hand, I know that from day 1 they have shielding on the display. (vertical first on the first (40 ? I believe) next diagonal. On the low resolution picture provided, I see no such shielding. Although the shielding doesn't say its an production, absence of the shielding says it is an pre-production test/evaluation version. Furthermore the dz/rigger involved in testing is endorcing Vigil (or was at least) and we all know Vigil and Argus aren't the best of friends. For the sake of clearity, my DZ is involved with Argus, so I too am possible biased. To clearify this even further, I am not stating this IS an issue here, but common sense states it can (unintesionaly) have influence. This is even furthermore a reason why it is sad the tests were done (IMHO) in such a bad way. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Thanks, I just read it, that report in flawed in so many ways I don't even know where to begin! I don't see how any conclusions can be made from this report... updated to restate last sentece, this one better reflects what I ment. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Does any1 have the test report yet? I almost fell out of my chair after reading this: "This decision has been taken after several incidents with this AAD brand, and mainly after the tests performed by the Dutch Rigger Association, VVV. The complete report made by the VVV is clear enough." I am a dutch instructor, licensed by the only governing parachuting association in The Netherlands, KNVvL. The KNVvL has NO bulletins out on the Argus, nor does it impose any restrictions on its use. The VvV is NOT an authority on anything in The Netherlands, it's no more then a club of riggers. (which is consulted by the KNVvL, but has no authority on its own). What scares me even more is the fact that the VvV is in the midst of some "political" turmoil so a report from them should be read with some caution. I would love to read this report, since I jump an Argus too and would like to see how test were setup and how they consulted Aviacom (Argus) and if the test were done with production units, or test units (which should not to be instaled, but only piggybacked on alot of jumps to gether data) The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

It's all about where to place quotes to twist a statement or leave out nuances. Also you arguments are very convincing. (let's not get into a flame war... rec.skydiving has enough) The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Ok, sorry for that one then, but the presenter was almost bursting into tears, so it was hard to follow the guy. So you are stating technology does not allow an AAD to be able to distiquish between a good opening or a malfunction? BTW the scenerio as now described by you would more advocate RSL/Skyhook then an AAD in my book, but that's MHO The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

A possible misfire under investigation, stating they did a thorough research of the unit and concluded it was user error, while the unit wasn't even sent to them, is NOT a couple of administrative errors. This is simple 1 example. I don't want to bad mouth any manufactorer, but I am amazed how some people refer Airtec and think they are some kind of saints. All AAD manufactorers have made serieus mistakes and tried (succesfully or not) to cover them up. (Maybe Argus not yet, but they haven't been on the market very long, time will tell) The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

That's why i specificly included it. BTW I have the same strong reservation against Airtec, they 2 have little creditability regarding their statement (a.o. reported to have checked a AAD, which wasn't even sent to them) The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Ok, correction, I wouldn't use swoop mode on a 4 way jump. Because I don't swoop on a 4-way, I don't like to have people landing against each other (swoopers go downwind, the rest goes upwind) (I know you can swoop upwind, but personally I don't think the set of circumstances for 4 way are the same as needed for swoop(training) ) The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Every owner was notified, only 40 units were effected and every1 on their mailing list got a mail explaining the why and how. Not very secretative. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Wrong, at least according to vigil. According the units fired because the recorded pressure change was consistend with freefall below a assumed 850 feet. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

I've been jumping it for a few months now and so have some other guys at my DZ. So far I only hear good reports. The swoop mode of Argus sounds better to me then the speed cypres2. With the Argus you can chose if you are on a normal "standard" skydive and have a fully functional AAD. Or you can chose to have it set for swooping and have a limited functional AAD. With a speed cypres, you don't have that choice without a repack. BTW someone made a comment about not wanting a swoop AAD that goes into standby mode after a registerd normal opening, because of low cutaways. 1) AAD's are not ment for low cutaways (you have to build up speed, so IF you want this function a Speed Cypres is even a worst idea), RSL's are ment for that 2) Cypres tours with a video of a 4 way seperation went bad after opening, trying to make a statement against a standby mode. They forget you don't use swoop mode on a 4-way jump. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

I just got a mail from my rigger, they have a viso in the shop. Trouble is specs have changed so much, I don't know what it does or does not do. :S The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

I wasn't comparing to the cypres, with the water resistant remark. Both cypres2 as the argus are waterproof. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

That's why a number of brands are tested for their quality. The Argus manual says all brands should work, but they recommend a certain number of brands. They also recommend a minimum remaining shelf life of 6 years. The batteries which are supplied have a remaining shelf life untill 2015 if I recall correctly (I will update that if incorrect). Also the unit itself checks the batteries for at least 14 hours operation + able to fire cutter. (I have been told it in fact checks for 24 hours operation, but that not officially in the manual). Time will tell if the argus will live up to it's promises. But the persons behind the product are all skydivers and REALLY dedicated to making the "perfect AAD" The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

I have one in my hands right now. Got it last sunday from the company itself. Small, light and easy to use. Looks like a great product to me. Replacing batteries every year for only $ 10,-. Redundant electronics and every 4 years it's calibration can/will be checked, but in the field, making it lots less expensive. Also the unit is waterPROOF, not resitant. It has an IP67 qualification. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

the question and the replies of the TS, makes me think of a word that begins with T and ends with a double LL. If not some instructors/ store owners should reconsider their carreers maybe? The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

The cypres2 is a different beast then the Cypres1. You simply have to look at the world record attempt to see that, if you don't believe it. The manufactorer has more experience, yes (also in customer relations / advertising), but proven technology no. At least no more proven then e.g. a vigil. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

I'm currently waiting on my new Argus. User interface, waterproofing, swoop mode (not for me, but for resale or maybe later for me), and ruggedness and last but not least price. I do have a lot of questions though, about a number of it's functions (they it works) and we have to wait and see how it operates in the field. Plus points of AAD's in my opinion: Cypres 2: More experienced manufacturer Vigil: Build quality and battery system (pulse-plus) Argus: Seems the best built quality, battery system (cheap replacements) Negative points of AAD's in my opinion: Cypres 2: manufacturer not always "honest" in communication (my opinion only) and thrashing other manufacturers Vigil: Has yet to prove itself, but building up a better reputation. has been slow in communication. Argus: New player, lots of unknowns. Using commercial of the shelf batteries (but states it has a sure way of checking it's integrity) I do have to add that my DZ has a sponsorship deal with Argus, which allows me to get it REALLY cheap. I do however have no commitment to the manufacturer. Just my $0.01 The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...