flashvortx

The Greeks didn't use supernatural gods to explain things? A litle character named Zeus comes to mind.... Why not read what I actually wrote instead of what you would like me to have written? The Greeks had enough sense to develop and use science and mathematics to run their civilization. There's what you actually wrote. So, once again, the Greeks didn't use numerous gods to explain things? I understand that they used math and science.

Yeah 14 year olds are so analytical and smart. How do the OT and NT contradict each other? Let's see some examples.

The Greeks didn't use supernatural gods to explain things? A litle character named Zeus comes to mind....

What are some of the contradictions you have read? So many people that are against Christianity are so quick to talk about "all of the contradictions." Annnnnnd go....

It definitely says in the Bible that no one can predict the rapture.

Am I drinking a Dr. Pepper right now, or did the government just tell me that I'm drinking Dr. Pepper? Holy shit I just blew my mind. Are these guys lyin'? Are you a fan of acid and ecstasy?

If that's all you choose to argue with, then yes, that's all you've got. But I think we'll just have to disagree there. I've already argued in other ways. That quote is saying that we dont have stuff made by aliens to argue with.

[Quote] This sounds like you're saying that Christians only argue for benevolent reasons, and that any atheist who would argue back is simply selfish.[/Quote] No, no, no, no, no! I didn’t say “Christians.” I said, “I wouldn't want anyone to go to hell, so that is why I argue.” There are other reasons but that’s the jist of it. The “religion” of Christianity, or the public image of it, is not what it should be. The name is messed up by those who claim it but live the same life as everyone (and yes I’m included in that). I prefer to say that I am a follower of Christ, in that I look at His teachings and struggle through trying to live by them. [Quote] Are we just supposed to sit there and listen while people use illogical arguments to try to convert us?[/Quote] Well this thread is basically an argument, so obviously I’m not here to preach and I obviously don’t believe you’re here to listen, nor do I expect that. I’m here to argue with what whoever wants to bring. I’m not mad that you’re arguing back with me. I expect it. [Quote] I have never believed in God, but I can assure you that there have always been consequences for my actions. My atheism does not mean that I am free to "live a life of chaos and not have any repercussions."[/Quote] I think that “a life of chaos” is probably defined differently by Christ and an Atheist. You might not be going around and murdering and raping whoever you want, but you’re free to be sexually immoral, steal, deceive, envy, and slander one another. I’m not saying that everyone that doesn’t believe in God or Christ is doing those things, but to do so would hardly matter. Those things carry heavy consequences to Christ followers. Edited for formatting.

No, YOU changed your points when your contradictions were pointed out to you. Absolutely not true. Bring the evidence hombre!

The stuff designed by man is all that we have to argue with. If we discover another planet with life that designs things, then we could start arguing using their stuff, but for the time being we are restricted to what we know. And is our stuff really that insignificant? Yes, in relation to the universe, it is smaller we can comprehend. However, we have largely dominated this world of ours. Sure there are things we can’t control yet, but we’ve done some amazing things and we’re on the edge of expanding out into our solar system. That’s not to compare my iPhone to the splendor of the universe, but to say that if the simple things require a creator, why wouldn’t the complex?

I’m in the middle of moving and you’re making it very difficult. Haha, I quickly replied to a few posts and was going to start moving, but then I read yours. I’m not saying you’re in any way easy to argue against, but it is fun so I keep coming back. And yes, you’ve addressed that argument (but no one else has). You’ve tried to show that God isn’t needed for design, and I’ve shown that He is. He has shown signs of existing by giving us a universe which requires design and cause. I haven’t, and probably won’t use the Bible for evidence of His existence (in this thread). [Quote] As Christians who care about others, one should try to spread the gospel and to save others from hell if you truly believe, it is the logical thing to do. It is also rarely done though, people would much rather be religious fence sitters who say they are convinced of God, yet they are content with their best friends going to hell.[/Quote] You can’t (or at least I don’t know how to) spread the Gospel to people that don’t even believe that there is a God. This debate started off and quickly showed that I needed to try to prove God first, so that’s why I haven’t gotten into the Bible, except when someone brought it up. And I agree that it is very rarely done. Sitting on the fence is a very easy thing to do, and people are very lazy (including me). It takes a lot of time and effort to learn the amount necessary for good debate and to teach, and I’m only at the very beginning of doing that. This debate actually gave me a very large push to learn more. As for the shackles - as someone that would very much like to live a perfect Christian life, but self admittedly doesn’t even come close, I think that everyone having those shackles would make this world quite nice. Whether or not you believe in the origin and actual meaning of the Bible, you have to agree that if people love their neighbors as themselves, the world would be a pretty excellent place to live in. BUT, before you tear that apart, we can’t really imagine the world living like that. We are jealous, lewd, greedy, arrogant and envious people and we’ll never come close to living how Christ wants. I understand that we, especially in the States, love our freedom to do whatever we want, so probably most people would never agree with having those shackles would be a good thing.

[Quote]Kepler did not base his discoveries upon faith as Einstein did not base his.[/Quote] I've never said it takes faith to discover something. Einstein's work better showed how the world works and has worked in the past. He didn't come up with a formula guaranteeing that it will always work that way. So far, the only one to come close to arguing my actual points has been Meso. Everyone else changes what I'm saying to make it easy to argue. Meso has only done that a few times

Duh, golly gee Mr. Professor, thanks for pointing that out. In my 51 years of life I've always thought that products just appeared out of thin air. Thanks for the enlightenment, oh great Swami! Obvious, you do not even have an idea of what science even is! FAITH! Ridiculous! Science is not faith nor is it even fact. Science is a box of tools that allows us to sift through a vast array of information. Nothing is absolute as hypotheses are tested and then repeated leaving room for revision. Science is characterizations, hypotheses, predictions, and experimentation. All which is left to peer review. Kepler did not base his discoveries upon faith as Einstein did not base his. Science requires an open mind and the ability of imagination. Faith requires one to abandon imagination and to lock ones mind. Faith is a fools crutch which supports nothing. So you're saying that science has produced a tool that can look into the future and prove that the way things are today will continue to be that way in the future? As far as I know, nobody out there can guarantee that water will boil at 212 F tomorrow or in 100 years. It's faith that lets us believe that our measurements like that will continue to be reliable. If it's not faith (one definition being confidence or trust in a person or thing), then what is it?

Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Selecting parts of scripture to believe as fundamental truth (and try to force on other people) and parts to conveniently ignore is par for the course among the religious. What parts are being conveniently ignored? I've never denied that hell is a sulfurous torture pit. The definition I gave doesn't come directly from the Bible. Rather, it is an intelligent assumption drawn from the Bible as a whole. Fundamental truths don't contain internal contradictions. The Bible is full of contradictions. Fundamentalists have to weave all kinds of excuses to avoid having to address those contradictions. Ok, my box of tissues contains the Detroit Tigers. If we could say anything we wanted without some form of proof, this forum might as well just be deleted.

That's a statement of faith. In that case, how's these statements of faith. Your heart is going to beat within the next 5 seconds... The sun is going to still exist tomorrow. If you smash your face against a wall hard enough you're going to bleed. Faith != Logic Did you just say that faith equals logic? Or does != mean something in a forum that I don't know about?

That's a statement of faith. +1

[Quote]The concept of God is outside the realm of science. Simple as that.[/Quote] That is largely true, however people that have a purely scientific mind will never take that for an answer. I try to use simple reasoning to show that God is under science. [Quote]You do know that you are free to believe whatever you want, right? So, why is a big problem for others to believe something different than what YOU believe? Kinda arrogant and self-centered on BOTH sides of the fence if you ask me.[/Quote] People can believe whatever they want, but followers of Christ believe that, essentially, if you don't believe in Christ and his actions and teachings, that you will go hell. I wouldn't want anyone to go to hell, so that is why I argue. It's my belief that the people arguing against God argue for selfish reasons. The other person doesn't benefit if they get convinced there is no God. If someone convinced me there is no God, great. All that means is that I can go live a life of chaos and not have any repurcussions.

Who designed the rocks I walked over this morning? Who designed the hydrogen atom? So far all you've done is given examples of man made things requiring designers. Of course they do. But the leap from, "my computer needed a designer," to, "everything in our universe needed a designer," has no basis in logic. Just like I've said many times before in this thread, any atoms, molecules, rocks, planets, galaxies, would have been created at the start of the universe. The start of the universe (and thus the creation of rocks and stuff) is the one thing that nonbelievers think is the one thing that does not require a designer. I've given this argument at least several times so far and yet it is always skipped over, or people like you get it wrong and argue against something that I'm not even arguing.

Right there you proved your complete ignorance of the scientific method. Go do some reading. The scientific method is used to investigate, correct, or acquire. It does not and cannot predict the future. It can be used to say that water has boiled at exactly 212 F in the past, but it cannot prove that it will continue to happen in the future. Scientists rely on faith that it will continue to happen since there is no way to prove it. Science cannot prove the reliability of nature.

[Quote]That makes more sense. The rest of your reasoning is non-sense. [/Quote] Hilarity. You said nothing to attempt to prove my statements wrong. Read back through what I wrote and argue against it if you can.

God is the one behind the bad things that happen to us. But as I said earlier in the thread, “bad” isn’t exactly a negative thing. The bad things that happen to us offer us a chance to grow spiritually. One of my first posts in the thread gave James 1:2 - “Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.” It’s like if you raised your child in a padded room with no access to the messed up things that happen to us in this world. If we don’t get hurt every once and a while and learn to overcome, how can we be mature?

Earlier on in this thread I think it was I pasted quotes from the bible in regards to the description of hell. I'm not sure where you get your definition of hell, but the hell as defined in the bible is more often than not referred to as a pit of flames located in the center of the earth. Selecting parts of scripture to believe as fundamental truth (and try to force on other people) and parts to conveniently ignore is par for the course among the religious. What parts are being conveniently ignored? I've never denied that hell is a sulfurous torture pit. The definition I gave doesn't come directly from the Bible. Rather, it is an intelligent assumption drawn from the Bible as a whole.

[Quote]The flaw is defending an inconsistency in your own logic ("Everything does need a designer") in support of your beliefs by saying logic doesn't apply at the most fundamental level of your beliefs.[/Quote] Everything in our universe requires a designer. I didn't mean to say absolutely everything (I corrected that in another reply). But as I've said time and time again in this thread, to a nonbeliever, the only thing that exists without a designer in our universe happens to be the most complex and amazing thing that exists (the universe). My computer needed a designer and my house needed a designer. What, from your perspective, has not required a designer (except what was created at the start of the universe). We live in a world that requires a creator for everything. Now, for God to have created this universe, He couldn't have been part of it. Like I've said before, you have to look outside the automobile engine to find the designer. For our universe, you have to look outside of it to find the designer. Therefore, if God doesn't exist in our universe we can't apply the same rules to Him.

scientific facts!? delusional, yes! Come on now, That's not an argument.

How so?