Scrumpot

Glad I read all the way down, because this is almost EXACTLY what I was gonna jump in & say! ...I can't believe all the people in here merely debating about the gear rental cost! In actuality, the BSR's only state that non-A licensed jumpers are required to HAVE a cypres. I do not think that it says technically that they have to be turned ON! ...Okay, this may be a technicality (and I haven't actually looked it up either -I think it may even say STUDENTS -if you are off student status -old school maybe, but just not yet A-licnesed maybe it doesn't even apply there either) but my 1st thought was why did this jumper HAVE TO ride the plane down? I'm with Zen on this one. Pretty lame, but NOT because of the gear rental & jump ticket cost issue! -DOH. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Here's a scenario (the one I witnessed -long ago). A jumper had a tear in the topskin to his canpoy on opening. Upon completing controllability checks between 3k-2k he fealt it was controllable & landable. His transfer was a little higher than 1k (I think), but conceivably could have been easily under ---all of a sudden the tear "opened up" & also started to tear the bottom skin too, almost literally looking like his canopy was suddenly ripping in 1/2! Looked really low & this jumper instantly fealt (I guess he already marked the point where he decided he was too low -for him- to cut away) he was too low to cut away & instead pulled his silver FIRST. ...As the reserve PC was launching he put his hand on the cut-away pillow & watched for the reserve to inflate. As it was inflating (behind the now "disintigrating" main) he then pulled his cut-away which seperated the main clean, with (again) virtually NO loss in relative altitude. I was on the ground watching this & had to clean out my drawers afterwards! I remember this jumper however (I remember only as being a "veteran" -I had maybe only 50-60 jumps at the time) being very calm & cool about it though. Definitely not a manuever for the faint of heart! coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Yes. Or worse, there is a chance of main/reserve entanglement as well which could simply exacerbate your problem (whatever problem you were thinking it was that neccesitated the attempted canopy transfer in the 1st place) as well. On the other hand, I have also seen 1st hand, this maneuver done quite cleanly & EFFICIENTLY (nearly zero loss of altitude) too. Maybe there is somebody in here who has actually performed one (I have only SEEN one, not done it myself) who can better discuss with us all the when's, how's/where-for's and appropriate situations to which this manuever may be applicable? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Prepare now to spend 1/2 of your life, and AT LEAST 1/2 of your income at the DZ! Welcome. -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Can I apologize too & earn your admiration? Based upon your icon-thingy (what is the name for that again?) You're cute coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Not a problem, and like I said, IMHO some of your points were definitely not invalid either (I'm in a double-negative kinda day too) After all, you did succeed in getting me over here "in the social forums" in the 1st place ...again another: Looks like Sangiro has put a commentary in a thread (in the incidents forum now) he just "bumped" inviting ON TOPIC relevant questions & discussion to. I do say I have to agree that (and I think even you see now) that THIS discussion was not meant for THERE! Further, it looks like he has even COMPLETELY ERASED my thread, as if it never even existed!! What do you think? (you were one the ones who saw it, it was YOUR posting there that got me over to here)... ...Should I now go on a tirade? I'd like to learn from your experience! coitus non circum - Moab Stone

We've now heard your point. Personally I do not think it is invalid either. Problem is that the HH himself (apparently) does not agree. It's now up to you whether you are willing to accept that or not. I've been admonished by the moderators in the past too, but I certainly did not go on a tirade over it. The "rules" in here are fairly simple ...(we cetrainly DON'T need chapters & verses of annotated code do we?) & oft times subject to interperetation. The final word on that interperetation is Sangiro's (and his designated moderators). Although LouD was indeed being "gruff", his point is also not invalid either. If any of us don't like it, we don't have to be here. I think that we can find ways to all "appropriately" participate in here. The whole reason for taking part in a MODERATED forum is to not have it degenerate into the alternative ---which I have since "defected" from (at wreck-dot). Post something over THERE some time & see what happens to you. There has to be some acceptance of the trade-off's inherent in this "structure" then if you are going to participate. Or again, it is your choice not to. Even if we did stipulate that your point was TECHNICALLY CORRECT (which by-the-way, I do also personally think it IS): "The purpose of this forum is to report, discuss and learn from fatal and serious non-fatal incidents." PERIOD and that no rules were broken ...again it is within the HH's purview to further interperet that, and lock a thread AT HIS DISCRETION. ...Heck, he may even yet lock mine. I've started another one over there, I think asking ON TOPIC, valid QUESTIONS about the incident. Maybe someone can help us out by answering them? I think the matter that Sangiro wanted to "bounce" you over to talk back for was precisely THIS "debate". ...I don't see how anything is "broken" there. We're now having it, aren't we? As long as we stay "TOPICAL" within the TOPICAL forums; to date, I have not had any issue with this structure. My .02 ....and then some, eh? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

THANKS JAMES! ...Yup, that is one of the methods. The most critical piece of this is steps 2 & 3 (pulling the bridal OUT from the center of the mesh then S-folding it (at whatever point in the process you choose) OUTSIDE of the center of the PC. Personally I choose to do my s-folds laterally between steps 3-4, then fold the PC in half (from the handle-side) down over that & then roll. Others I have seen will fold the handle back over (so it matches with the apex/attachment point of the bridal) 1st, then S-fold along the length on the BACK of that & then tuck it in (the pouch). Either way, if you then stand over your closed rig & pull on the bridal (holding the closing pin in place) you can readily see the difference in extraction force this makes! Most times pulling on the bridal (simulating the container having opened & the bag has left it with bridal now flapping in the breeze) after packing it with this method will actually even extract the PC autonomously! Not packing your PC away using this "apex method" usually causes the bridal to instead BUNCH UP & knot at the cinched BOC pocket entrance. Try both ways for yourselves & see which is best for you. THANKS FOR FINDING THAT! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I found this searching the archives on "wreck-dot" from 1995. Don't personally know either of the originators, so I will keep this "anonymous". Apologies for the plagerization and if recognized by anyone who can lay credit to it, I'd be happy to give credit where credit is due. In the interests of altruisticaly trying to help out though, here goes... ----- ...a lot I've heard depends on the packing of the PC, and how the wrong > way to pack it can cause it to bulk up and clog the pouch. Hope to > find out more about that .... > Yes, there are several ways to pack a throw-out pilot chute. I was taught this in the days of cordura pilot chute pockets when the difference was much more important - a spandex pocket will not lock up nearly as much. (supposedly -since proven wrong or at least not entirely accurate) -gs. However, it is still worth knowing about. The one thing that makes any real difference is where you put the bridle attachment point (the base of the pilot chute). The best thing to do is to have the bridle attach point next to the apex (and handle). To do this lay the pilot chute out upside down, pull the mesh so the bridle attachment is on the edge then fold the pilot chute in half so the handle ends up on top of the bridle attachment. Finish folding and stowing any way you want. This means that in the event of a horseshoe (or the bag leaving for any reason before the PC is thrown) the bridle will be pulling at the entrance to the pocket with MUCH LESS RESISTANCE (instead of bunching & clogging up), and it should in most cases actually slip all the way out & maybe even extract the PC for you (early deployment vs getting an actual horseshoe in the 1st place). If you pack the pilot chute with the bridle attachment in the middle (ie if you just fold it in half without pulling the mesh out) it will end up at the bottom of the pocket, and in the event of a horseshoe, the tension on the bridle will tend to (instead) knot up the pilot chute, which makes it even more difficult to extract. Try both ways on the ground and see what happens when you pull on the bridle. ...the extra 2 seconds required to pack this way is worth it to help load the dice a little more in my favour. If I am in the middle of a horseshoe malfunction fumbling with the loose bottom of my pack tring to get my BOC pilot chute out at terminal with 10 seconds to impact, I want all the help I can get! ----- coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I have also seen somewhere (a long time ago -was it on "Wolmari's" website?), and personally since adopted, a pilot chute packing procedure practice whereby the bridle is pulled from the center of the PC prior to folding/packing/stowing it in the BOC pouch so that the handle (or hackey) and the bridle s-folds are both EVEN with each other (rather than all the bridle in the middle or aven at the "bottom" of the BOC & the handle at the "top"), which in THEORY helps prevent a Horshoe in the event the container opens before the PC is pitched. Maybe someone else has seen this/practices this that they can point to the website I've long since forgotten to better describe/illustrate this procedure? I'm terrible at trying to saliently (other than in person via demonstration) explain this in writing. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

You should always check the condition of your hackey attachment or plastic tube attachment as a part of your main packing sequence. This "part" like any other certainly can & does (as indicated by this incident) wear. Very responsible report/response from PISA/Aerodyne Systems in their handling of this, my hat's off to them. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Good job on saving yourself & BEER for the 1st reserve ride (plus a fine bottle to your rigger). One question: Did you continue your pull of the silver handle even though your RSL (and you were apparently aware of it) had "beaten" you? Or did you instead just leave that stowed from there? I'll reserve any follow-up thoughts/potential further questions based upon your answer. Thanks for sharing with us! BSBD, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

The concern I think, is actually switch wear vs. battery life over-all. The reason it is harder to turn the cypres off than on is a design feature. It has to be very well "coordinated" on purpose. Otherwise, switch "bumps" in the plane on ride to alt. etc. could potentially make it more prone to being inadvertently turned off. I know with my particular cypres (Manf. right around the same date as yours -don't know if that matters or not), the "trick" is the very first push must be more of a "stab" than a deliberately held push. Then as the light flashes, as cornholio says: you have to be QUICK! ...If you miss, it will frustrate you trying again, because the cypres will then IGNORE all other presses for at least 90 seconds. Again, this is a design FEATURE. I do turn mine off after jumping in the colder months, simply because colder weather amplifies battery drain if the rig is exposed to the cold with the cypres on for extended periods. (maybe that is a misperception, but it works for me). With a little bit of practice (just like learning to turn it on) you'll be able to soon enough get it turned off whenever you want to. For the most part though, it is entirely not necessary, at least as a general "routine". Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Might not be prudent to have 2 people together at the same DZ at the same time with the actual first name of Grant If you happen to talk to JR or Kathy, tell them I have STILL been waiting (what 4 yrs now since the've taken over that DZ from Bob?) to get added to their e-mail distribution list! So, what's the scoop on the helo? They secured a turbine for the season up there yet too? Inquiring minds want to know! I still have jump tix from there just burning a hole in my jumpsuit.

Again, where I feel I can effectively "manage" the speed of my openings (ie: I can speed them up if necessary), unless I am UNDER 1,500 (never been there at terminal -so I guess I can't say for SURE) I am going for still, my MAIN. If you check my profile, you will note that I DO jump with a Cypres, and yes, this does enter my mind. However, NOT to the point of hesitation. Like Bill Von, I feel fairly confident in my abilities to manage a 2-canopies out situation. 1. Because I have thought of it, planned (or at least "visualized") & DON'T necessarily "fear" that situation. and 2. Because my main & reserve combo, I think, are fairly well "matched". (again, increasing my likelihood in even potentially facing this fairly UNLIKELY scenario, that it would be, if faced, ultimately "manageable"). Answer yet again this one for you? Like I've said before in previous posts: You pays your monies.... BSBD, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Until one day you find yourself snivelling right down into that f*ing group that pulled just a bit high & turned right back up line of flight underneath you! Seen it happen before. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I can pack my safire such that it takes maybe 600ft or so. Most people I've encountered that say their canopy snivels for 1k, then I jump with 'em and observe, really only take about, or even not only if that. Most who supposedly look to do this, do so in order to soften (or by perception soften) their openings. Personally, I like to "fly open" my canopy. Meaning that, I have enough delay in the slider coming down from the point of line stretch to "manage" it's speed in a staged fashion with my rear risers DURING snivel. This, to me, softens the openings & makes them very predictable, because I am in control of the opening, as opposed to being just a subject to it. Some peple believe you need 1,000 ft of snivel to do this. Like I say, at least for me, this in reality is generally NO MORE than 600 ft TOTAL from pitch to slider stowed. Does this help answer your question? Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

You go on with your bad-ass self!! Welcome back! coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I did that. I even dialed too! 9...1...1... Bitch just gave me the finger & drove off (great mother-figure role model, eh?). Cops said they would "watch out" for her, but I doubt they did. I do have a friend at the State Barrack in the jurisdiction though who said he would follow-up on it. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

What makes it even WORSE is when the little rug rats are sitting (or bouncing about as the case may be) in the FRONT SEAT (right in front of the poised to KILL THEM airbag) totally unrestrained (seat belted) as well. Think that's a ludicrous scenario?? I got into an argument just LAST WEEK with a parent at a stoplight who I noticed PERSONALLY doing EXACTLY this, who thought I should "butt-out" and that she had "EVERY RIGHT" to do this! INCREDIBLE!!! coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I heard Pepperell, up in MA rocked this weekend too! Cryin' in MD, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

This should be a reasonable fit for you then. As Dave points out, assuming the rig is in at least a fair & "serviceable" condition, that price is a heck of a deal as well! ...If you don't take it, maybe PM me with the sellers details & I may consider taking it instead for you (or would that be FROM you?) as a potential second rig myself. Good luck with whatever you decide. BSBD, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

The Reflex is a very well designed & made rig. Yes, the grommet issue is one that can be easily inspected for/corrected if it has not been already done. I have @ 500 jumps on mine & have found that it also "wears" very well. If you would like any further, more detailed feedback about the "catapult", rigger packing methods, etc. feel free to PM me & I'd be happy to help/provide whatever I can. You will find that opinions on ANY rig will vary widely, sometimes to the extreme. Maybe 1st see if any local jumpers own one that you could possibly even try (or at least try on) & then compare the fit, finish & feel side-by-side with some others to maybe help you determine YOUR preference. There are indeed a lot more choices now adays for sure. #1 concern is definitely get a rig which FITS you well. If you are putting a 190 or a 210-220 in this, chances are this is an R-5 which is rather "large" with fairly long legstraps. How tall/big are you? If you have to sinch-in your legstraps excessively on the Reflex, chances are you are not going to like the inconvenience of the excess strap stowage between your legs. For a 1st Rig, without more 1st hand knowledge and some personal preferences not already know/established, you may want to stick with a local face-toface purchase. But otherwise, this sounds like a very reasonable "deal"! Good luck. Blue Skyz, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Could cause an "interesting" scenario if you had to cut away after having stowed in this fashion as well! Personally, I have concluded that if you have SLinks AND a collapsable slider, that you use them fully as their design had intended. Collapse & pull ALL THE WAY DOWN beyond your steering toggles. If, like on my set up, you have a slider that tends to want to creep (or even POP) back up, ---find a solution for that, but DO NOT leave a slider at or just above the SLinks (collapsed or not). Between a few PM's between Bill Von & myself (THANKS BILL!) & some practical trial and error, I have found that either loosening your chest strap once fully saddled-out, or sewing a slider stop/trap to the BOTTOM REAR of your risers is an effective solution & consideration. Slider keepers that I have seen either on the backs of helmets, or affixed to the yoke of the rig itself are NOT viable, recommended options IMHO. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Count on that, one out of every 150-200 openings or so, no matter how consistently you pack! ...Okay, have I started something now? Welcome to the forums! Blue Skyz, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone