Scrumpot

Man, you've REALLY done well here Krisanne, to "soften" this old, crusty one here for sure! In all seriousness though, I too think that when we approach things RESPECTING EACH OTHERS perspectives, and WITHOUT necessarily "broad-brushing" and flinging about the disparaging stereotypes (something that even little ol' me has been guilty of at times ) we are ALL better served. You have done me a service in here as well recently by pointing this out to me, and I appreciate it. This was a very well thought out and CONTRIBUTIVE post! Thank you for having taken the time to do it. I'm sure (or at least I'm HOPING) you will get some very valid feedback here as a result of it. Just another thing to remember is that it is indeed a TWO WAY street. As some others also point out, it can in fact get FRUSTRATING when we (and when I say "we", I mean the euphemistic basically "all of us") witness a relatively low-timer, supposedly come in here for advice, then RECEIVE IT ...from someone like say my buddy Sparky here (who has "been around" awhile) or Skatch Garrison (dare I harken up another fairly recent thread? ) ...and then either TOTALLY ESCHEW IT, or further yet feel somehow compelled to "argue" it. Unfortunately, there are those out there who merely are looking for nothing more than their own reaffirmations; or in other-words, the answer(s) they came in either LOOKING TO, or WANTING TO hear in the 1st place. In MANY cases THAT IS DANGEROUS ...and needs in some instances to be dealt with directly, and yes, TERSELY. If it stimulates a "reaction", that is not necessarily "bad". As someone else has recently PM'd to me... I think that pretty much says it all. And this was an insightful realization by another jumper I was recently "arguing" a bit with. We (again that big euphemistic "broad brush" ) really just DON'T (as desperate as that may sound) want you guys to either see, or worse yet: yourselves BE "that shit"! Some of "you" (and us) inevitably though, no matter what we do will be ...but whatever "fight" I think that we all go through here, if it results in similar to the above realization, at least in my mind and in the end analysis DOES make all this, somewhat more "worth it". Thank you again for taking the time to draw up, and then post, this very valid post; and for continuing to offer your viewpoints! Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Not being disparaging. Just an observational / experience only. I've jumped with people who THINK they are "excellent trackers" with 10x's (plus) your jump numbers who for, whatever their individual reason(s) just DON'T HAVE A CLUE! Most of the time in talking with them after the jump, I find they have solo "practiced" something they THOUGHT was effective and "working", when in reality they were instead "tracking" nearly STRAIGHT DOWN (or worse ..."Bannana-clipping") and they didn't even realize it. Having your track OBSERVED and ASSESSED and then "coached", as has already been mentioned in here is the only way to truly tell. And it's much better to tell under that circumstance and deal with it if need be, than on the time when say- you get on that first 8, 10, 12, 15, 18 or 20-way and it instead because you HAVEN'T gets you (and somebody else too as a possible result) in real trouble! Just another thought/observation/perspective to consider, that's all. I appreciate your thoughts and perspectives here as well!

And that was "Wicked Pissah" Lisa! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Thanks Michele! I had already done the ISP registration queries too, and won't even get into the area's of "concern" I have resultant of this. However, Jan is certainly "aware" enough and savvy enough, I figured before she posted this she would have KNOWN, and can share with us more thoroughly her purpose in this, and/or maybe further either details or assurances accordingly. P.S. ...Will be out your way again 2/11 - 2/13. Hope to see you then!

And you "trust" this? ...Looks way too "oversimplified", ie: something ELSE has got to be going on/"in play" here somehow. Do you know WHO these people are (the webhosts) Jan? -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Yeah, I once asked one of my favorite old salty CReW dawgs why he carried so many hook knives on him (I think he carried 4). His answer? ...Because he just couldn't reasonably fit any MORE on his rig! I wonder if this jumper is going to go back to doing this "stunt" regularly again after this? Presumably he is quite experienced, etc. I too have seen someone get their foot caught doing this maneuver, although we did not realize it until he was all the way down. The foot getting caught did not induce a turn (or at least he was able to correct for it while still STUCK like this). He actually landed (and not too badly I might add) completely inverted, and we all asked him "WTF"??? It was only then that he said his foot got caught and he could not extricate it! He feared cutting away would not fully release the canopy (apparently similar to what happened here) so he simply did the best with what he had. Foot (or any body part/pc of equipment) entanglements as a result of this, or intentional radical canopy collapse manuevers (another story albeit all together) can become a "hairy" situation to say the least. Unfortunately the outcome has not been so good on several incidents outside of, yet eerily similar to these for some others who are no longer with us. Glad that everything turned out "okay" for this jumper here, this time around! Makes me wonder though if he will do this clearly planned maneuver still, again in the future? -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

The only way you will TRULY KNOW this is if either one of your instructors come up with you and observe you, and/or you do either a coached or "buddy" (doesn't have to be a coach) jump. Please be careful in stating and then further thinking (assuming) that this IS "working" for you. You could very well instead be ingraining very poor "tracking habits", and you otherwise just would have absolutely no way (on your own... ...solo) of KNOWING that. You need something to guage yourself against (ie another more experienced jumper in the air with you) as a measure of your progression, and to give you an honest assessment and some feedback at this stage, and although practicing solo CAN be helpful; every so often you will NEED that feedback in order to truly tell. Not a flame, JMO. You are of course absolutely CORRECT to check with your instructors, and mentors on ANYTHING you get from and otherwise just hear from here though. Blue Skies! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I did not even see THE correct answer for a carbonated soft-drink beverage listed at all! Which would be of course a TONIC!! I'm from Massachusetts & this thing only had me as 50% yankee! ...Well, DUH! If it did not even know itself the CORRECT coloquialisms and their PROPER (regional/local) identifier(s) itself. Oh yeah, and everybody knows a "car-a-mel" (what the heck is THAT) is really a "CAHmul" too! ---DOH! coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I think this has (got to be) my FIRST posting in the Bonfire... But I just could not resist! Who is this? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?username=Sen.Blutarsky; Absolutely CRACKS ME UP!!!

put it in your pocket... ------------------------------------------------------------ Along with your keys and wallet. ----------- Reminds me of a quasi-funny story. True, and fairly recent (like the weather here in the NE is letting ANYTHING be practically "recent" that is ).... Just got my rig back from my rigger. Full repack routine & "inspection". Go up for my 1st jump of the day & immediately open in a left hand turn (flying my canopy open & correcting with rear risers). No biggie. ...Unstow brakes, full flare -check airspace, and let 'er fly. ....Toggles all the way up & she starts a fairly significant left turn again. Hmmm.... Correctable with about 1/3-1/2 right toggle but a little disconcerting as I can not see any anomolies with a full visual. Try toggles full up in full flight again, this time seeing if correctable with just harness shift. It is, but harness shift was EXTREMELY significant (full right-side weight shift) to do. Get down only to determine that I had forgotten to remove my wallet and had left it in my left rear pants pocket. Moral of the story? ...NONE really, just that this made me think of it, I'm BORED out of my trees, and I thought it would be fun to "hijack" at least one innocuous post thread somehow. And to the original poster all worried about making sure his shiny new protrack records his jumps prior to getting his matching (presumably) shiny new helmet to put it in... Please don't get to the point you do anything blatantly STUPID just for this silliness sake. Seriously. ...I actually saw someone trying something similar to what you are talking about ...taking its packing "twist-ties" type wires and affixing it around his MLW, just above his chest strap. In F/F it slid up right over his 3-rings, which he also just thought was "funny". ---Would not have thought it so funny if he needed to cut away & that in any way bound that one side from releasing on him! Okay, enough cold-medication induced babble out of me for one day. ...I'm outa here! I now return you to your more "regularly scheduled" SILLY babble, which is all this one is anyway. Blue Skies All, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Okay Gary, I'll "bite" on this one... You wanna expand upon this maybe & tell me why?? (And for those of you ready to jump in ....) Gary?... coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Naw, nobody's "ruining" anything for me... at least as far as it goes relative to posting in here. If you think I am "worked up", then you take me entirely wrong. Doesn't mean I won't be happy to collect that beer from you someday! Seriously though... Dorb, and "Nate" in particular... Have you guys thought any of this through any further? I'm not "flaming", I promise! You guys have actually touched on something here, that I HONESTLY do think is worthy of further discussion & consideration. To quote a "wise newb" in here (AggieDave ...Thank you buddy): "There are a lot more people who are reading and taking things away from these threads than just those who post." So, c'mon guys ...DON'T stick your heads in the sand now. We've started this ...Let's continue it. If you've got perspectives to share, I'm willing to talk them through, and I'm willing to LEARN myself in here too! I've posed my questions. Seriously. Anyone want to take up the task of answering 'em? Obviously I'd prefer the original posters to whom I asked the questions of, but if you think you have a bead on where this is going, like I said ...please, chime in! No need to be afraid of little ol' me. I won't bite, ...I promise! And that's what these forums are for, aren't they? ---Posting, thinking, considering and LEARNING! I happen to just find this thread actually both "interesting" and WORTH WHILE. Ruining it for me? Not at all. Quite the opposite in fact. Only if you are telling me that the "exchange" is instead not doing you any good, or you don't care. That would be the only condition T, that would be ruining anything in here for me. Blue Skies (and free beers ALWAYS sounds good!), -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Psssst.... Scott, I know you mean well, but please, let "Dorbie" answer for himself. Trust me on this one. I know what you are saying relative to the light MAYBE being "flicked" to red. But I don't think THAT had anything to do with what he was saying; and further, that was also not anywhere near where I was headed here though. Dorbie is the one that made the statement. Can we maybe hear from him what his reasoning (and thinking) was, so that we can more appropriately go from there? I think we all understand that if the pilot just got an urgent ATC call or something that if he flicks the green light instead to red, we probably SHOULD be able to recognize that. But again, THAT is not what was being said here. Re-read Dorbie's post & then my question. ...I'd still like to see that question answered by him. I know my "tag line" says it, ...but it is a joke. I'm not really all that dense! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Okay, so maybe I'm playing a little "devil's advocate" here, but think also about this.... Spotting for just solely, and simply ONLY YOURSELF is an entirely DIFFERENT matter than YOU (at only 50 jumps total) being #1 in the door for a whole Otter load of 23; consisting of 6 varying discipline groups, PLUS an AFF & 2 tandems BEHIND you! Okay, so let's even say you do already have the skill-set available to SPOT FOR YOURSELF (which BTW, I highly doubt) & you can call it PERFECTLY, so as to put YOURSELF just in the right postition so as to have the pristine exit, FF, then opening to set up for that PERFECT (again- for YOU) "down-wind, then 90' dog-leg, then another 90' for final" in-the-peas landing. ...Do you have ANY CLUE as to what that has now done to THE REST OF THE LOAD? Obviously a rhetorical question. Because I've already got the answer for you!! People, there's a whole LOT more to think about today in jumping. Especially from larger A/C (Otters & bigger) when you are (supposedly) "spotting". You know, I've already told myself (several times in fact) that I was gonna STOP posting >midnight my local time, yet some of you "newbs" (and I really don't mean to be disparaging) just keep me coming back! I'm gonna rest-up here just a bit. If anyone else wants to "chime in" here, PLEASE, feel free to be my guest. I'll come back in tomorrow, cause you know what? ...I've got a couple o' more posts to "answer" in here before I'm done. I will say this though: PEOPLE HAVE TO STOP BEING NOTHING MORE THAN LEMMINGS!! In EITHER DIRECTION ON THIS SUBJECT!! I can see where the original poster was going with this, and I think, we have lost track of that just a little here. It made some sense, in "principle" ...right up until just of late with maybe the last couple of posts jumping in here, with their "anecdotes" which IMHO are deviating & mixing some apples & oranges as to what was originally being said. Like I say, I'll come back in here in the morning maybe when I'm a bit rested. You guys indeed do have me on one here that I am looking seriously forward to discussing some more though!

Okay, hmmmm.... Just wondering out of curiousity, WHY is it that you are doing this? Trying to picture it myself here, so please bear with me. 2, say 3 groups have just exited in front of you & you are moving to the door as a solo behind them, do I picture this so far correctly? And then as you get to the door you stop/pause to "look at the green light"? Do I follow the sequence here still so far correctly? ...Then what? Not getting "animated" here mind you ...But I am wondering why? -What is the green light going to do for you? Enlighten me. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Whether I may agree with the opinion(s), or not; or your net "change" (which BTW, in this case I do ); please be careful about just blanketly doing this! ANY opinion(s) you may get off this board (or any internet site, "chat" or what have you), ...even if they are MINE (well maybe not mine ...you can always take those immediately, 100% without question ...KIDDING!) Please take them to a LIVE PERSON (you know what I mean by that) who also knows you, and in whom you respect and trust ...Like a (truly ...not psuedo) senior jumper, S&TA, or instructor at your dropzone and discuss them. THEN consider, reconsider and decide what is best for yourself and your situation. Seriously. Now, back to our mindless molding duties in here at DZ.com at-hand. My apologies for the interuption to this otherwise regularly scheduled "service". -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

It takes (at least) 2 people (or canopy pilots) to be involved in a canopy collision, but it only takes ONE to be able to avoid it. Remember, that you can also find yourself in a position that you could argue that you would have been 100% "correct" (ie: low man, down-wind, or what-have-you), but what good would that do if you were ALSO 100% DEAD? If you can not see where you are going ...Do SOMETHING about that! Counting on the thought that "the other guy SHOULD be able to see me" is also wrong. -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Dave, this may not mean Jack Schit, but I've just GOT to say it anyway: ...MAN, you sure have matured in here! Well beyond that of your 4 (actually nearly 5 now, isn't it?) years, which may to many (and many of them with much more "seniority") might indicate!! Again, I just could not resist. I just HAD TO remark on that. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

And at less than 300 jumps, this may need to be a bit more carefully examined/considered, don't you think? Or do you think a choppable mal and reserve ride every 60-80 jumps is "acceptable"? I just had to remark on this. Please do not take it as a personal attack or a slam in any way. You say that all 3 mals and (several others that could have been) reserve rides are already in your log at just such a short history? I suppose there are the chances of just dumb luck, and if you now go at least another several hundred (if not thousand) of jumps without a mal/chop, you could then say it has all "balanced itself out" then. However, I would be just a bit concerned over the pattern you have seemed to have set for yourself here (just on the raw surface of it), and I would not otherwise in any way consider this as either any where near "norm", or "acceptable". Granted that on ANY jump, a choppable mal is ALWAYS entirely possible, but when you see a number like this, that is so counter-statistical, especially on a relatively low-timer (meaning that, I assume you are not already engaging in either "experimental"/higher risk jumps, and/or intentional cut-aways, or otherwise jumps where statistically a cut-away likelihood is measurably higher so as to be EXPECTED), it SHOULD, I would think give you some reason taken for sincere pause, and potential re-examination of the WHY's this is occurring. Whatever it is, that has caused you to have 3 chops within only 200 + something jumps AND several others "potential", I sure hope is being very soberly reflected upon, and thoroughly considered, and not just somehow otherwise rationailized off as "acceptable". Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Actually, I find it quite interesting, and it seems I have heard a lot lately, jumpers defending their High WL (and/or HP canopy choice) conversely with statements like: "yeah, but even at 1.5(+):1 I am 'safe' because I am not either hook turning or performing HP landings". This is strictly an anecdotal observation, but seems somewhat contradictory, wouldn't you say? How would you also then quantify that? Only conclusion that I am able to come to, no matter which side of the equation these jumpers are coming down on (in "justifying" their positions) is that they (obviously, and clearly) just don't understand what it is they are getting into! NOT a good situation (or indication) IMHO either way you look at it. Again, just yet another recent anomally that I have OBSERVED. I really am starting to more seriously wonder if some sort or variation of WL BSR just might in fact, be needed. ...Dunno. My "jury" is still out on that one, and it seems the more I read, the MORE I hear, still even the more ...I just dunno! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Not at all. I am quite happy and confident in just this scenario under either my Safire at 1.35 or Stilletto at 1.51. And yes, on both of them I have been there, done that. The consideration is a reasonable one. If you either can not or do not know how to control your canopy into a tight spot, then you don't know how to fly your canopy. ...ANY canopy! Or, you are out of your range for that canopy. Again, the consideration is a reasonable one. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

You see, THIS is where you delude yourself. ...If you really think that this, is somehow the "real world"! Bawwwwwwww....... HA! Nice "try" though. -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I think you miss the point ENTIRELY of "Fast's" post, which you are replying to. If you do indeed need to work on your "altitude awareness", getting an audible at this juncture just may very well instead turn out to be COUNTER to this goal. What I would suggest, is either some coaching/coached jumps with your VISUAL alt. and debriefing/working on understanding and recognizing your visual cues, and then PRACTICING them until you become FULLY COMFORTABLE with them FIRST. Otherwise, I fear, you run the risk of setting yourself up for just that type of "Pavlovian" risk behavior(s) senario(s), that again, I think, in actuality will be COUNTER to what I know is your intent. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I think a lot of people are missing, nearly entirely what you are saying. But you know, another possibility, that I don't think I've seen in this thread yet either (even though it is deviating just a bit from the original rant of spiraling directly over the LZ ...which really is a bit of a different matter from this ...but now even I digress) ...Is that if you are shootong accuracy, who says that even necessarily HAS TO be to the peas? Sure, fine, if you want to. And normally, I've not seen too many problems with this because of (or maybe especially when) 2 things exist: 1. The peas are either (as they usually aren't ...and as you say) a part of the generally accepted "swoop lane" anyway, in the 1st place. but even if they are... or are relatively close... 2. It was made known to the other jumpers on the load this was your intent. As I see it, this is a 2-way street. COMMUNICATION always is. Oh yeah, and back to that part I haven't seen (I don't think) offered up here, at least relative to shooting accuracy, and having that mixed in here, is... Who ever said that accuracy HAS TO BE the peas in the 1st place? I remember back when I was working on my declared accuracy, and consecutive accuracy especially, ...what I would do is take a bright hula-hoop, or in other cases an oversize frisbee and bring it out to either a further downwind, or corner of the LZ, and "declare" that I was gonna be landing there. Just yet another alternative to be considered is all. Can't we all just get along? -Grant (and P.S. ...regardless, SPIRALLING DOWN THROUGH TRAFFIC DIRECTLY ABOVE THE MAIN LZ IS INDEED BAD Ju-Ju! ...Do that sh** OUTSIDE of the traffic pattern if it is something you feel the need to do. THAT is just common sense/courtesy) coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Yeah, I understood that too. Dense or not! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone