Scrumpot

Sorry, I missed that in my "taking time to get stable after a chop" ferver (if not downright FEVER, eh?). I have posted on another thread, a link to a video of a cut-away 1st, then reserve pull, confirmed to have been @ 600ft. I think THAT is probably about "pushing the limits" as is. I have seen a demo of the skyhook, and you are correct that it is "impressive". So far, in "controlled" circumstances anyway. You pose an interesting inquiry in that, say I did have one of these in my rig and were (obviously) aware of it. Would that change my thinking any in a low sudden mal (say a canopy collision) situation? I honestly don't know. That being said, I have also seen (witnessed 1st hand), and practiced (theoretically ...in my head) the option of a "canopy transfer" in such a scenario. The one I witnessed was also quite impressive as well. At @300ft I witnessed a canopy get literally shredded from above by another jumper initiating a hook turn and tearing right through the middle of it, creating an instant and EXTREMELY LOW unrecoverable/unlandable mal! The next thing I saw was reserve PC launching off this jumpers back, and just as the reserve was JUST begining to inflate/exit the freebag, the jumper chopped his main, which cleared CLEANLY. There was next to no loss of altitude in this event, and the jumper now under his reserve even had time to set up into the wind, and land without any further incident. Theoretically, sub 6-700ft, I think that is what I would do. Above 750, I'm putting my hands on BOTH HANDLES and pulling in bling-bling rapid fire succession (also hoping that my hand does not slip off my cut-away pillow ...a real "fear"/consideration as well). If the main was spinning wildly, I THINK I would just have to dump my reserve, and hope that the extra silk hitting the breeze would save my ass. I've seen this actually work too. Maybe once I've received evidence that the skyhook has actually worked successfully at altitudes lower than this, IN ACTUAL SITUATIONS, would this change my thinking? I dunno. Maybe. You bring up valid food for thought there. Remember though, that the extremely low "test" that we all know about & was published in either Skydiving or Parachutist magazine(s) was a "BANDIT JUMP" (and "set up" ...meaning packed specifically for this jump, slider down -etc. which normally would NOT be the case), and further is NOT reccomended by the manufacturer. I believe the inventor/manufacturer himself posts here to these forums fairly regularly though. So maybe he/they would like to comment? Those are my 2 cents though. For exactly what that's worth! Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I'll chime in here, if that is okay with you! I don't jump with a skyhook. Nor do I jump an RSL either. Even if I did (with ANY of the options) I think I would react identically, which is to say I would pull cut-away, then pull silver, in as close to one, fluid, muscle-memory ingrained reactionary motion (or set of motions) as possible. The ONLY difference as to having either a more traditional RSL or a skyhook for that matter would be whether it could be argued if either had "beaten me" to the reserve pull (which in either case.... no matter how fast you think you are, it most assuredly WILL)! The only "argument" I still see going on in here is (and it needs to be SETTLED) is the one with ANY advocation of thinking you have to get stable after ANY sort of low (and what I mean by that is sub 3k AGL) cut-away, and subsequent thinking of HESITATION before making your follow-up/follow-through reserve pull ...which is entirely BUNK! -Do NOT do this, do NOT think this!! The arguments FOR this, are specious (at BEST). Post #'s 52 and #44 Say it best. Take the time to RE-READ those, and DIGEST them. As far as LiveLifeGoJump's observation, and then "conclusion" that his witnessed someone delaying from under a spinning mal chop is the ONLY THING THAT SAVED HIM, is specious as well. That is just a BUNK assertion, and I would submit rather, that jumper probably survived that one in part, DESPITE themselves!! Multiple tests and HARD EVIDENCE has SHOWN that the likelyhood of a reserve mal, as a result of an IMMEDIATE (or RSL) deployment following chop from even a WILDLY SPINNING/DIVING/TRASHED main is EXTREMELY LOW!! Yet the likelihood of you losing your altitude awareness under such mal is instead EXTREMELY HIGH. The "concerns" being portrayed by some (and just look at the comparitive experience/jump numbers between the camps, and make up your own mind as to which you want to put more "faith" in is all I can say) ARE COMPLETELY UNFOUNDED, and IMHO do NOT need to be perpetuated! coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Actually, that was the impression I had, and thus my response. Glad to see that it looks like we're all operating at least on the same premise(s) now! coitus non circum - Moab Stone

And if you can't get your forward speed down under your current canopy enough that you feel you have the ability to safely do either consistently (upwind, crosswind OR DOWNWIND) and under YOUR CONTROL, then UPSIZE until you CAN! This looking for other ways "out" is really starting to astound (and confound) me. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Who told you this, and WHY is this being perpetuated??? Please take a look at both the actual, practical and EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that has indeed shown differently. I am getting tired of seeing and "hearing" people continue to say this, when it has been so clearly, and REPEATEDLY dis-proven! This is exactly the type of mentality that will cause a low-timer to hesitate, and work on getting stable after cutting away from a spinning mal for the rest of his life! Puh-leeze people, if you have an RSL in this situation ...don't worry about it, do what you have to do. And if you jump without an RSL & find you have been flung bodilly spinning from under a chopped spinning main, sure ...if you can very nearly INSTANTLY snap stable, go for it. Otherwise, PLEASE, grab & pull that silver handle. DON'T FIGHT IT!! -It may end up instead becoming the very last thing you do. -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

The differences and examples you are talking about are between a very experienced skydiver using his TOOLS, and a newbie instead using a CRUTCH (and not an elderly person with a walker either ...which is yet ANOTHER ENTIRELY DIFFERENT MATTER, thank-you-very-much and not germane at all ). My point, or input more precisely is that a true "crutch" (or a newbie using what should be, and is designed instead for a more advanced purpose TOOL as a crutch) IMHO in THIS (and not some just supposition) illustration, may not necessarily be the best idea. It will ingrain bad habits, and a false reliance that he does not yet himself even understand, and that he will only have to "break" in order to become truly proficient, sooner or later. Putting the "crutches" on now serves him no REAL benefit, and will only make that later IMHO. There is no substitute for proper technique learning at this stage, and I submit by doing this instead (mis-applying the more properly intended use of swoop cords), this jumper is doing more "harm" than good in the long-haul consideration of his body flight progression. If you are having trouble staying relative to a group, your most effective "fix" is some one-on-one training with a good coach (notice I did not say necessarily "USPA Coach" ) Just my .02 into the situation, based upon my experience and observations anyway. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Why wouldn't you want to completely undue your cheststrap BEFORE entering the water? Actually, instead this is precisely what you DO want to do! Check your SIM, but I'm pretty sure that undoing your cheststrap actually IS part of the (not "one of") method to use in a water landing situation. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

No, but if this consistently happened to the same persons rig/particular gear, rather than just fluff it off as "it always happens anyway ---no big deal", I would get it checked out and FIXED. My concern is that too many people look at this just a little too complacently is all. I think we are both on the same page over this. THANKS! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Not necessarily! ...Although I think I understand what it is you are trying to say, in of itself, this is INCORRECT. For instance, I have seen a situation where a jumper "reversed" his EP's. In other words, he pulled his reserve on a line-over mal BEFORE his cut-away. He (VERY LUCKILY) got away with it. -Does that mean that this was the 'right' action in response to this mal? -ABSOLUTELY NOT! 999 times out of 1,000 this would have ended up in a main/reserve entanglement. I would not under ANY stretch have called this the 'right' action, which implies that under the same scenario, it would be 'okay' to then do this again! You most certainly CAN make a (and in this case I submit potentially even a very dire) mistake, yet still walk away from it. Doesn't make it 'right'. -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I have seen several cut-aways from under even wildly spinning mains WITH an RSL. All resulted in a nice, clean and STABLE reserve deployment with no further concerns at all. Your answer to this one: CHOP and don't worry about it! Deal with your reserve deployment upon it's deployment only AFTER having CORRECTLY executed your EP's in this situation. Which does NOT include disconnecting your RSL! ---Get this one out of your head. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I'm surprised that absolutely nobody has even remotely mentioned this yet, but at only 83 jumps ...what is it you think you are doing with swoop cords in the 1st place? If it is because you are a big guy, and need extra "umph" to try 'n "stay up"; by having swoop cords, ESPECIALLY AT THIS POINT IN YOUR PROGRESSION, you are doing yourself NO FAVORS! What I mean by this is 1st and foremost YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO FLY YOUR BODY. Swoop cords are a "crutch" that is in effect, actually TAKING THAT (opportunity) AWAY FROM YOU!! IMHO you will instead form potentially bad habits that will become just all that much MORE DIFFICULT to break in the future. My .02 ...GET RID OF THE SWOOP CORD JUMPSUIT ALL TOGETHER, at least at this point in your progression! Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

And I contend that this is a problem then, and an issue! If this is something that "just happens" with this, it needs to be looked into and CORRECTED! You have just portrayed for me here EXACTLY the type of complacency/apathy that concerns me greatly in regards to this. FLAPS SHOULD NOT JUST ROUTINELY COME OPEN UPON OTHERWISE "NORMAL" (which this one pretty much was ...as best as I can see) CLIMB OUT! If it does, then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT/FIX IT! DO NOT BE COMPLACENT ABOUT IT!! Even "older" (the vector for example) gear can be either retrofitted, or oven just minorly adjusted so as to be reasonably secure. THERE IS NO EXCUSE for this! IMHO. -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

That's kinda like the old Nazi/fascist then later communist then McCarthyism doctrine of "turn in your neighbors", isn't it? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

It is also, ---apparently--- the best drop zone as well in: Tennessee Alabama South Carolina Kentucky Mississippi (etc.) All... "Just a short drive down the road" This (the blatantly false advertising practices of ASC & Skyride), is ludicrous and INEXCUSABLE by ANY "stretch", to ANY reasonably thinking person, ANYWHERE, PERIOD. It is not needed, and it is a black eye IMHO to the sport. It should not be supported. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Those are just parts of the "entire picture" you can (and should/should be able to) take into account is all. I find many reviews to be valuable, and then again many others as well not to be. Rating those reviews also provides some further feedback too! I would not necessarily censor a review because it appears to have come from a resident/staff member. Would I take that perspective into account though (and hope there are more reviews than just those available)? Yup, sure would! That's why all that info is there!! Just another suggestion, search the skydivers database by state where you know you are going to be relocating to, and if you are serious about checking out as many resources as you can, contact some of them too. All "perspectives" from an internet bb need to be taken either with a grain of salt, regardless -or at least for "what they are". Good luck in your new move, and... BLUE SKIES! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

HERE

I've looked at your video, and here's what I see: 1. You guys have got open flaps, riser covers and all kinds of SH** just a flappin' in the breeze out there!! ...Even on the newer, more "modern" gear!! CHECK/SECURE YOUR SH** PRIOR TO CLIMB-OUT! The dude with the Jav on rear float has got his main pin-cover flap TOTALLY OPEN. Front floater has at least right riser covers open; and again, in general it just looks like you've got a LOT (and not just your older Vector) UNSECURED gear flapping about out there. I know the immediate response to this is probably "but that stuff with these guys particular gear opens up all the time"... and here's my response to that: THEN GET THIS STUFF CHECKED OUT/ADJUSTED, and/or "FIXED" SO THAT IT WORKS AS DESIGNED/CORRECTLY! Main pin protection/covers, flaps (yes including "just" riser covers) etc. ARE THERE FOR A REASON, and they should work! If they don't, then FIX 'EM! And if it is instead that there was no prior-to-exit even at least cursory gear check ...then SHAME ON YOU! This was a potential multiple incident event just waiting to happen, and each of you should count yourselves as lucky that a worse outcome as a result did not occur. Your pictures here (and vid especially) are worth a thousand words in testament to that! Please people, becoming lax/complacent with your gear is link #1 in a potential chain of events which can indeed catch up to you. Glad that this event turned out relatively "alright" for all involved. -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

And ALL of these landings within the pre-planned, and well lit/set-up/established LZ? As with almost any canopy choice, day OR night, the critical factor can (and DOES ...for MOST) become when you are not in the "comfy" pre-planned situation (ie: landing off) when finding yourself committed, and on final. It is THERE, where a screw up (or even minor misjudgement) can become so much more greatly magnified, that taking the more docile (regardless of daylight currency or "comfortable with") canopy really makes the difference. IMHO. -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

A coaching jump is far different in regards to your obligations than that of a "student" (as like in AFF) type jump. Although as one other JM pointed out earlier, after a STUDENT in that situation pulls, they are out-of-there & much too low to be responsible for canopy ride considerations; keep in mind too, that UNLIKE AFF you, as a coach are NOT responsible for that newbies pull. Those are the differing points, whereas an AFF JM OWNS a STUDENT's PC (or ripcord) below a certain pull alt. As others have also already stated... you done right. C-YA, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

-On jump #87 in 25 mph (known) winds ...later (after take off, but known to have been "likely" to actually pick UP) to be gusting over 30, I "panic-turned" my carcass into the ground, and 5 compression fractures (L1-L5) + 4 months worth of downtime as a result. All this because I had to drive @3hrs to/from the DZ & it was a "rare" warm enough winter day (Jan 3rd) so dog-gum it I was not going to "waste" that, and I was gonna JUMP! A weather front was coming, and "we" (I convinced just enough others to make the minimum load) were gonna BEAT IT! Lesson learned... you always have ANOTHER DAY, and there is plenty of time to jump! That is, unless you do something STUPID (like this) and take yourself OUT of it. No need to be so anxious & none of us is as indestructable as at that time I obviously felt I was. -Always talk about looking 1st, and it is YOUR jump to either make or not... Jump #853 (enough to maybe now know better, right?). Jump run light comes on & I open the door & look out. Can tell that the plane is "crabbing" laterally from the DZ, so the uppers must have changed. We are also already aside (stradling) the DZ by @ .5 & the "push" is obviously away. Started calling to the pilot for a 10-left (like THAT would have even been enough! ), but I have a full-face helmet. Right then the green light comes on (GPS based upon previously good jumprun spot), so naturally the tandemmasters begin their ritual yell ...GO, GO, GO, GO! Long story short, we went. ---1st AFF JM to come up to the door behind us looks out, closes the door & calls for a 90-left! After a 2-mile walk-back by me & my 4-way, lesson learned here was obvious! If I can think of any more (1st-person ones obviously only ...and I'm sure I've got 'em), I'll post 'em. THANKS RON for an excellent thread. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Although "dressing for success" CAN be a PART of the equation, I do still fear here, that you are not fully getting it. I myself, at my peak pushed over 219 lbs (that's nearly 250 total with gear ...out the door), yet with only ONE (R/W) jumpsuit could just as easily (and have been) either in the base, or as well as late diver on as big as 40-60 ways. You do NOT want to be RELYING on your baggier suit and swoop cords to be what (puts you into and then subsequently is what you are then relying upon as a result to) get you out of these situations! Please talk with your more experienced up-jumpers who regularly jump big (or biggER)-ways in your area and who may know you, who can help you out with this. Either that, or we can take this to PM's so as not to further "hijack" the thread. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Right here pal. ...UGGGHHH!! NASTY (piss-water) SHIT! Busch Light reminiscent of college days?? You obviously can't even be old enough to truly "reminisce" then. I don't think Busch Light was even out (or any "light" for that matter) when I was in college! Who the heck do we have out there instructing these noobs now adays anyways?? Children teaching children (by this statement) I fear! EEK! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

If this is the lesson you think you've learned from this, please go back and reconsider/re-"learn"! You haven't learned ANYTHING from this by this indication/quote. Not "ragging" on you. Legitimately concerned by this for your (and others) future safety, if this is what you truly believe. Think about it/get some input on it during your down time. My best wishes to you for a hopefully speedy, and full recovery. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Ron, you weren't really too far "in the hole" then! Not until/unless you had pulled up your feet (lest planting them in the ground), and your THIGH was then the only thing to touch the ground before you eventually stabbed/dug it out. C'mon bro, be real! Actually, in the vein of the purpose of the thread then though, ...what, if anything do you think you could have done so as to have AVOIDED getting yourself into this "corner" (not a swoop corner, but an options corner) in the 1st place? Was your view of the other canopies before setting up for landing somehow obstructed? Were the other canopies/pilots setting up somehow completely out of your lane of vision/anticipation for the swoop pond compared to what you had planned? You stated that your swoop (path & location presumably) was "planned". When was this planned? ...During your canopy decent, so that it would have been virtually impossible for anyone else to have otherwise known this, or sometime before, so that prior COMMUNICATION could have potentially averted this situation? Fair questions? Please let us know. THANKS! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

"Pre-second" is a good viable substitute for using the "f" word sometimes. Won't necessarily get you out of BEER obligations, but none-the-less ...CONGRATULATIONS!