Scrumpot

Can YOU? Okay now, I know I'm sounding brash towards you, and I really do wish I could find it in me to have a "better" approach, but YOU are making it just so DIFFICULT for us to do. Cannuck, who has come on here with great humility and open/giving humbleness has made I think, a very ASTUTE observation, based upon his EXPERIENCE ...in an effort to HELP YOU with this, and all you can come back with is: It's clear that you are not REALLY listening here, and that's getting frustrating!! I'd be willing to lay odds on this one. Okay... Cannuck has given you from HIS perspective as a moderately-experienced videographer, how it is QUITE REASONABLE to presume you COULD HAVE BEEN backsliding. From his (the videographer's) perspective. Now I will give you from the RW flyers perspective (as I already have) what I think also supports that, and PLEASE... consider me on this one! The guy who you were filming "track", in my experience in the position shown clearly in the video, I can almost GUARANTEE YOU ...WAS NOT GOING ANYWHERE!! Guess what that means??? Yup, most likely the ONLY movement, and apparent (very little) separation between the 3 of you, came probably pretty nearly EXCLUSIVELY from YOUR BACKSLIDING!!! You seem way too dismissive, and "glib" over this. I really truly do hope that you have the ability to YOURSELF truly LEARN from this, and not continue to instead be dishonest with YOURSELF. Please think about it. Please ...and again HONESTLY re-assess and consider it. I've said my peace on this one. I don't mean to "flame", so please don't take it that way. But it is clear, I am getting at least just a bit frustrated by what I see going on here. Hope you "get it"... Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Pulling in place is for the video-man who is flying video ABOVE the formation to do AT TIME OF BREAK-OFF! Instead, it looks like to me that you stayed DURING break-off "in place" while still falling "down-the-pipe" and only watching ONE of the 3 of you (and supposedly NOT the one you had "any known problems with), then deployed at the SAME "pre-set" (presumably) deployment altitude as the others had. Sorry again dude, but YOU set YOURSELF up for this, and you need to be HONESTLY more self-critical about this too. Doesn't any one else see anything wrong with this scenario too? It's one thing to be all "PC"/nice to jumpers in these forums, and try not to "upset" anyone, but PLEASE ...someone else then maybe... help me out here a little bit! ...Or am I an idiot?? Maybe I just need to hang this whole gig up. Tell me too then.... how the hell did you know where Mr. Iron Cross tracker was going too? Where was HE when you pitched? Do you KNOW? Maybe when I see the UNEDITED version of your video these questions answers will become clear. But the way I see it, he certainly was NOT going very far in that position either, and as far as I know the ONLY horizontal separation you were getting there might have been coming out of YOUR back-sliding!! He did seem to stay significantly ABOVE you, so did you rock back on your knees any during this for you to keep him in frame so as to "get the shot"? How many video jumps do you have now? Again: YOU made a BAD PLAN from the get-go under these circumstances! Then (to me) you failed to appropriately react to a clearly FAILED (I'll submit DOOMED) plan too, which if (as it seems by your posting demeanor) you were supposedly the most experienced on this jump too. THAT, makes this mostly YOUR responsibility to handle (or at least have the abilities to handle) and deal with don't you also think? As far as your base point though about realizing whether this deployment between you was really CLOSE or not... Sure as heck WAS!! And gives me a "pucker-factor" for sure every time I look at it! Yes, he (this other jumper) needs to realize that. But it seems to me like there's still SEVERAL aspects for your own good, that you need to realize (and accept and deal with) as well. Hopefully I haven't "lost you" with my points and observations. Like I say ...just as you relative to him... I *REALLY* don't mean to be a prick, but if the points can help, I feel I've at least got to try (to help ...not be a prick that is )! Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Okay, different point of view after re-reading these posts several times and re-watching the video. Like someone else said, I relaly hope I don't come off like an ass-hat here, but I just can't beleive that others aren't also remarking about this more either, and well... sorry, but, here goes... You talk all "high & mighty" about lecturing this jumper, yada-yada-yada. But where the H*** is YOUR culpability here?? Wasn't it YOUR job too to see these other jumpers?? For Christ-sake this was just a lousy stinkin' 3-way (with you as one of the 3-way PARTICIPANTS it appears), with BOTH of these other guys on "break-off" also RIGHT THERE, in front of YOU! Remember, YOU also (quite apparently) deployed right there next to him TOO!! It takes 2 to have a collision, but it ONLY TAKES ONE to avoid it!! ...and in this case, NEITHER of you, as I see it was that ONE! You BOTH relied on nothing more than dumb luck!! And, if your earlier statements on this are absolutely so too, and you ALREADY (supposedly) knew that this guy had tracking issues ("HE" did this "TO YOU" before), ...then I'm sorry man, but YOU put YOU in this position more than him, and I would suggest that YOU actually in this case may have even MORE responsibility as a result than him! Like I say, sorry to sound like such an ass, but IMHO you really need to THINK about this! ...and NOT all just that you were either totally not in the wrong yourself with this either! When (more like "if", but apparently NOT ) you saw (or SHOULD HAVE SEEN) that this guy was not tracking away from you, maybe you could have taken some action too, other than just blithely also deploying your canopy right next to him too? What was that alt, you were breaking at? Deployment alt? DID you have any OTHER options, or were you so critically LOW that you put yourself OUT of options?? Certainly did not look that way based on the vid, but I did think it was worth asking/perhaps stimulating some HONEST re-assessment! Seriously. Just trying to give you something MORE to think about. What do you think? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Thank you Tom, very interesting link, and available data indeed!

The "risk" of needing to pull LOWER than normal (to clear congested traffic) also goes up on bigger-ways, and thus WITH a Cypres, the "risk" of having to deal with a 2-out scenario. The CHOICE under informed and considered for the particular circumstances to jump either WITH a Cypres, or WITHOUT can be equally valid (and respected) for some. However, if you ever find yourself in a situation where you are about to go on a jump, and the ONLY final reasoning that "pushes you over that threshold" to allow you to do it is your Cypres... you ARE better off NOT going on that jump at all. If you would absolutely not do it without your Cypres, or say it just failed its turn-on self-test & you now fear going at all because of that (so that again, your Cyres is your ONLY REASON), you are DEPENDENT ...which sets you up for very bad things if you are not capable of getting over that, or reasoning through it. You & Bill are talking "AT" each other and not listening/considering what the other is saying. Dave, semantics of being safer to (obviously) just not jump at all aside, maybe you can step back & see the point? You're sick. I've had a few 's ...So I'm now with you, and I'm calling it a night. I've got some serious JUMPING to be doing in the morning (and ALL weekend it looks like now

I think your observation is correct here Dave, as I have often found myself talking with "lowbies" after I see them ATTEMPTING this with their landings, and asking them WHY. Your observation is oft times their response, right on! The one thing they fail to realize/recognize though is how far loosened we have opened our chest straps to, and how far FORWARD we may be leaning in our harnesses to "set this up", which of course they are missing/failing to emulate altogether! Now, it's certainly NOT that I am reccomending that they then also do that (loosen their chest straps at THAT level), but usually once it's pointed out, and they then realize that they are NOT applying the proper techniques, especially for, and in consideration of their current level and objectives, also in combination with the other factors they have not even yet begun to realize, it USUALLY also corrects their ways! {hijack mode now OFF} ...sorry 'bout that. I just saw your post there Dave, with this observation (which I have also had) & just thought I might comment on it. Hope I've made some sense after a few Friday evening 's -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Second Response: One's MOST FAVORITE "Safety Nazi"... Leave him/her alone. He/she is a GREAT person & just made a HUMAN mistake. Why do we all feel the need to "flame"? One's LEAST FAVORITE "Safety Nazi"... That person is a MORON, and I've ALWAYS KNOWN they didn't really have a clue as to what they were talking about, and was otherwise just a divot waiting to happen! Hey, one "calls 'em as he/she sees 'em"! Again, ...BLUES! Summer is slowly returning!! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

You're a "Safety Nazi" Steve? My answer is "depends". A little "flaming" to ANY of us for something truly STUPID, for humilty, is not necessarily a bad thing. If you can't "suck it up and handle it", and recognize/admit to when it is DESERVED, then that is your OWN short-coming to reconcile. I've been there, done that (been "stupid" that is). I don't toss rocks just arbitrarily either, from within my own glass house. Sure hope now I don't actually DO something STUPID myself after having said that, any time soon! Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Ha Bill! ...Beat you to it by one minute! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Hey, as long as my flaps are closed, and I can tell no bridal has been snagged or pulled in any way, so long as I have pin-checked visually just before boarding the plane, and have not "knocked around" or had any undue bumping etc. ...I close my rig TIGHT ENOUGH in the 1st place that I KNOW my pin has not gone anywhere. IMHO a "pin check" at that point is next to useless. ...And I'd rather NOT have anyone else then opening up my flaps, and POSSIBLY CAUSING something as a result either! How's that for a difference of opinion? Now that said, if there has been either excessive movement about the plane during climb, I know I've potentially snagged something and/or I KNOW the person about to do the check I will get one. Short of that... I don't need EYES ON, to feel "confident" about my gear, if already PROPERLY checked prior to boarding under these conditions. Just another perspective. Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

You know though Jan, as a "joke" unfortunately it seems, so much of it really is just not "funny" at all. As you note, most of it is actually identifiable within these very incidents forum(s) Personally, the tetrehedron one hit home with me, and I did find myself actually LAUGHING over that one, as just this past weekend I was surveying just off the landing area at my home dropzone, the brand-spanking new windsock & pole recently installed after a jumper had decided out of all places in a WIDE OPEN landing area that right ON TOP OF IT was THE place for him to land. ...even "BETTER" accuracy than a tetrehedron if you ask me! But then after you have laughed, you find yourself still shaking your head, and seriously (re)-thinking about it. Good post. BSBD, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Yup, I was there. How else did you think I knew about it to congratulate you when you 1st walked onto the DZ yesterday (and a DIFFERENT DZ from where the chop occured)? I'm good, but I'm not THAT good (clairvoyant) ...at least not yet! Nice, fast smooth reserve deployment. Good job! IF there were line twists in it (which I did not even see) I doubt very much if they were either packed, or that the RSL contributed in of itself, in any way. More likely, because it was such a SLOW SPEED malfunction, that as Lisa was falling away from her main, the "drop" startled her and she kicked/flailed just a bit, as Keith says... rotating her body around the axis of the now deploying reserve. She probably just did not have the wherewithall to "ARCH", or be more fully aware of her body position as she was chopping. She definitely seemed quite "non-plussed" after she got back to the hangar, but she also did not seem too overly or keenly "aware" of how EVERYTHING happened either. Similar to newbie/student jumper "overload", which oft times prevents them from accurately recounting everything that happened on a skydive, I think this is what she experienced. Her training, and her diligent EP's practice (I have seen her do them on the ground while gearing up, and routinely in the plane, although I was NOT on this load with her ...I was on the ground) I think just made it all quite "automatic" for her, once she had identified that she had an unlandable main canopy. Again, exactly what the mal was, I did not see. But hopefully at least this much gives you a bit more, and helps to answer your question(s). Let us know when you "collect" on your bottle, and I'll be happy to share!

Did it at 2 separate and different dropzones this weekend. Saturday at Chambersburg, then Sunday at Delmarva. Jump #'s 27 & 28 (a 3-way & a 5-way) for the newbie at C-Burg on Saturday, and some similar fun at Delmarva on Sunday. We do this stuff EVERY weekend. For C.Burg (PA) check out: S&M For Delmarva (DE) check out: RWConcepts Look us up anytime! ...We're always happy to jump with you, and WELCOME new faces!

Answer: ...as ALL witnessed within just the last WEEK (or weekend) at a dropzone near you! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Hi Tink.... As you know, I was there and although did not witness the mal itself to describe precisely what she had, did see the cut-away & resultant reserve deployment. In short, I do think that Keith (Bigun) has got it. Her "line twists" on her reserve appeared to be very minimal ...maybe even only one twist (or 2), as her "kicking" under reserve was very BRIEF. In fact I had only thought the kicks were residual from her slow-speed mal chop body attitude only. But for that, you'd also have to ask her. I'm sure she'd tell you! If you are looking for opinions as to RSL vs. going without for fear of line twists.... I can tell you that her reserve deployment otherwise seemed very stable (even though her body during separation from the main was NOT) and ON HEADING ...So even kicking out of MAYBE one or 2 twists as a result, as compared to some of the potential alternates (reserve not deploying in time ...etc.) would probably be FAR PREFERABLE! I certainly did not hear her "complaining" about them either, or the reserve's performance in ANY way once she returned to the hangar. "Rookie" or not, Lisa appeared very clear-minded, responsive and level headed about her actions, and the entire situation at all times. Congratulations on earning your 1st "save"! Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

You mention pulling the cut-away, then waiting for the reserve. But you also do not mention anything about actually pulling the reserve. Can you please clarify, was this an SOS rig perhaps? If not, ...RSL? Glad things worked out so well for you. Good job on recognizing and being comitted to ACTING by your HARD DECK. As you point out, that is not necessarily an easy thing to do with a partial mal. Sounds like you made some good decisions! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Okay, cool! Thanks Ed, for letting us know. As usual, and as should always be stipulated ...to check with YOUR instructors, and/or mentors who know you, and know 1st hand the entire situation. As it is always nearly impossible to tell just from the "cold, impersonal" internet. Glad to see that is also precisely what has happened here, and again that if her willingness to post all this up and share has also helped others, well then again: GOOD ON HER! Thanks again for the clarification(s). Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

OOPS! ...Bad Ju-Ju! Maybe I will now jump on you here, just a little bit. ...Please, even if you THINK your RSL has pulled ...Pull ALL your handles for YOURSELF anyway!! Everything you do in this sport becomes habit, and THAT is indeed a BAD habit to get into. If you have an RSL in your rig in the 1st place, I can next to guarantee you that it will "beat you". You should STILL PULL that silver handle, RAGARDLESS! Next time you may not have an RSL, or it could fail, or what-have-you. Seriously. I would be concerned at this point that you have still NOT "proven" that you can completely (and correctly) execute your EP's ...because even in this case now, you have NOT. Kristin, please get back in the hanging harness, and work this through some more, talk with a mentor or instructor, THINK about it, then RE-PRACTICE it. I'm sorry, but this statement here in your case has just concerned me and set off "alarm bells" that I do now think you will need to address. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Another reason to BOYCOTT Best Buy IMHO. The STUPIDEST "boxes of rocks" people (and chain) on the planet. -PERIOD. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Yes, pretty much, and THANK YOU again! Exactly what I was looking for, and thank you for clarifying that. It sounded like this was the case, and I was wondering about it. Don't worry, not to "pick on you" or find fault in anything you did, trust me. More out of personal curiosity at this point brought on by something I've been observing of late, and wondering if it is something of a new "phenomenon" or not. Your reply, although not conclusive or "all inclusive" gives me some indication that it just may be. Maybe I will start a poll on EP drills to see what kind of preponderence of responses I get. What I have seen, and what I am alluding to, is (and this is what I am guessing that you do too ...please feel free to either correct me if I'm wrong or add anything further ...again, I promise I will NOT "flame" you or pick on you in ANY way. It is I who is trying to learn something here & I sincerely APPRECIATE your input!) jumpers on jumprun, "practicing their EP's", and what I see is maybe 4-5 rapid repeats of: 1. Motion to toss main ...IMMEDIATELY followed by: 2. Motion of cutting away 3. Motion of pulling reserve and repeated 1,2,3 just like that in rapid succession. Now apparently, for you, and in this situation this EFFECTIVELY "kick-started" your mind and your EP's and that is good. However, we have seen some discussion on these boards over the years (and even some disagreement ) about how much time might be potentially "wasted" by even just a cut-away in some certain high-speed malfunctions. So I'm wondering how, expanding upon that to this, and for learning/consideration purposes you might feel, and/or whether you think you might have, under those circumstances (a PC in tow situation for instance ...WITHOUT arguing any point if it actually even is better to chop from that or not for now) would have done the exact same thing? 1... 2... 3... ??? Actually, I was looking less for you to have been "concerned" over the RSL, as to have heard more of a testamonial if you will, or to have been able to use you as an example of how this (excessive fear of "bad body position" on reserve deployment) relative to RSL considerations probably should NOT be a concern. What I have also now taken away from your response too is however, (double-bonus! ...THANK YOU! ) your awareness of that deployment, and also how calmly at that point you seemed to hanlde it. Again, GOOD ON YOU! Ditto. Never quit LEARNING! Which is what I am now also, resultant of your situation, also striving to do. Thank you for your clarifications. Did anybody else see what I am talking about and referring to with the 1st part of this (albeit now quite long, for which I aslo apologize ) post, and care to perhaps discuss/explore this (my concern/indication of a potential "phenomenon" here) a little more? Is this something that we should have as a concern? Maybe this is something to take to the instructors forum too for some consideration? ...Or maybe it is all "nothing at all" either too? Thanks again Kristin for your interaction, your willingness to post, and your willingness to SHARE!

And what else is new? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

The site ADMIN's address coming back to a "hotmail.com" addy, tells me all I need to know about the site. I won't even click on it. Might shell-out to a safe browser to do so, but those of you who have now gone directly to it may want to check your memory and hard drives for spyware! Seriously. Not for me. No thanks. Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Glad to hear it reinforced, how continued training and practice ingrains "muscle memory" to assure uniform EP's. Also interesting how you as a result apparently went through your "in-plane drill" motions in order to effectuate them in real time. What I mean by that, and if I read your description correctly, you had already deployed your main, experienced your unrecoverable spinning mal, yet for movement #1 (to "start" your EP's) reached back & re-"simulated" your initial pitch? VERY INTERESTING! I'm wondering now (if my assessment is correct) a few things: 1. How you feel about that in calm retrospect, relative to time spent and future (training/retraining) considerations? ...Do you think that perhaps getting your mind "locked in" as a result of repeatedly thinking of (and practicing) your EP's in this fashion, so that a "repeated" main PC reach as "EP action #1" is necessarily a good thing, or rather any reason for potential concern at all? 2. You were spinning on your back? ...Do you mind stating whether or not you jump an RSL in your gear, and giving us just a bit more detail as to the resultant (smooth/stable? ...line twists or not?) reserve deployment? 3. Also wondering what your "altitude awareness" situation may have been during all of this? Glad to hear how well things turned out for you, and THANK YOU for posting your story! GOOD ON YOU also for deciding to take action, and NOT "fighting" to as one buddy of mine refers to (and I still see way too many jumpers attempt none-the-less, unfortunately, to either their demise or injury) "rigging in the air". You've SAVED YOURSELF, and that is every bit as important to hear about in these forums IMHO as so many other failures! Thank you in advance for expanding upon this even further with my questions now, if you don't mind too. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

EXCELLENT!! ...That's the most encouraging statement I've read out of a "lowbie" (no insult intended) on this subject in a long time! --THANK YOU!!!!

Key word (highlighted) in those descriptions: Adapter, REVERSIBLE, Quick Fit. So now, WHO wins WHAT?? -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone