Zenister

what DZO is going to go for this?? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

its not graverobbing its archeology!

so as a % of participants (or of jumps) what is 'Low'? one of the things to be wary of with 'common sense' intuition is, as more attention is payed to an issue, (and information is more easily obtained than before) it is very easy to percieve an increase in frequency when in fact the ratio may not have changed, but the attention you pay them and the drive with which you seek them out has increased your awareness.. thats how accurate tracking of this kind of data would prevent over (or under) reaction to any statistical spike or perceived trend not backed up by substantive data. we know how many fatalities happen for most years, what we need (at the most basic level) is an idea of how many jumps were made in each year and where in the W/L to experiece/currency level each fatality falls.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

any fatality is worth avoiding, however you have to accept that there will ALWAYS be a increase numbers of deaths as participation rates increase, both from simple number accumulation and from the fact that with a broad participation base your more likely to get people who might not be best suited to skydiving in the first place.. this is exactly why i've been asking: what is an acceptable fatality/injury rate? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

actually i think reporting should be mandatory for any injury requiring serious medical attention. We wouldnt be arguing over such vague and fuzzy numbers if it was, this would also help detect and resolve any training shortfalls that might occur the next time technology changes..collecting non personal data to better define and understand the risks in any activity is always a good idea, getting it implemented a more troublesome one.. this may seem callous to many but 13 lives over two years IS pretty insignificant out of what 30,000 active jumpers?? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

ok lets hear your specific definition of the problem then? and be ready for questions to clarify) until you define it (and the majority can agree on the definition) you cant begin to figure out how to solve it effectively.. i agree on the museum and the USPA's role..however what if the majority of the membership decided that increased mandatory canopy control classes were unnessesary? until you can cleary define the problem and the issues that affect it, you'll have a very hard time getting most people to agree about what needs to be done to resolve it.. data lets you do that. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

we dont mock god (and divinity has far greater concerns than the idle chatter of humanity) we mock the cultural institution of religion you use to define (and therefore limit) what god is... i can mock religion (any religion) all day long the more involved your dogma the easier it is, particularly when the will of man (and the culture that creates it) is so obvious in your "word of god" ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

lol wasnt at the DZ yet then..just leaving work.. got 3 nice jumps in yesterday.. 2 fun FFs and another BM style practice tracking dive...was over the 'dirt farm' on the otherside of 161 at 5k before i turned around to head back to the DZ...i dont get to play with really hard tracks that often and that was with 3 stops for PRCs

i agree, but it shouldnt take 5 years to collect it.. we have some info now, once we decide what other pieces of information are really nessesary for a complete picture we can develop a plan to collect it. A organized 2 year study would give us much better data than we have now, and give us a better idea of how the historical data fits into the large picture. Such a delay is unlikely to affect the fatality/injury rates significantly since most of the 'at risk' jumpers would still be grand fathered during that time period, even if regulation were put in place next week... there are steps we can take right now to encourage more canopy education all around..will everyone get it?? no of course not, but any increase will make some difference and increased visibility of the issue (by an ongoing study) would also encourage others to seek it.. yes you will always have the few potential divots who dont think they need it and would NEVER take any classes unless they were mandatory, but placing possibly unnecessary requirements on thousands for the sake a a hand full who will not listen is unwarranted without more information that clearly shows the majority of jumpers need (vs 'would be beneficial to have' which is always true) further training ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

rotflmao..havent seen that one in a while...always nice to bring up the less pleasant of "god's" laws when people start spouting scripture as justification for anything... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

lol..you need to brush up on your definitions..its not very clear that you understand what a 'fact' is... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

well that certainly a factor, but its misguided to hold it up as the only factor without looking at what else may affect the injury rates.. how many jumps were made in each of those years by jumpers in the lower catagories? does the ratio remain consistant? thats exactly why we need better information to make effective regulation ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Yup that thought is coing to mind....seems to me the WORST homophobes usually not only hate gays.. but women and ...themselves.. afraid of what they themselves are afraid they are. Self loathing has caused so much human suffering. completely uninteresting side note: they actuall developed some 'back story' for some of the characters in AB.. the homophobe father was actually arc'd out as a former homo whos lover was killed in vietnam, which then caused a psychological 'backlash' and retreats fully into the hardcore marine structure and disassosiated with all of his former behavior.. when he retires and is 'released' from the rigid structure of the military, finds himself lacking direction in an unfamiliar environment, and then believes that his son is homosexual, his structure falls apart and he loses himself again....lots of interesting subtext etc in that movie... back to your regularly scheduled troll baiting.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

of course it would help if the troll could keep a consistent argument together, but.... ah well..some targets are just too easy... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

you apocalyptic christians who cant adjust to the fact that the world continues to move beyond your outdated cultural mythos have been saying armageddon is near for the last 2000 years or so.. kind of like the little kid who tries to turn off the video game when he starts to lose... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

hmmm i need to find my copy of that FM..its a very entertaining read.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

are there? where? do they REALLY show a PROBLEM?? see the issue is you havent even defined your problem very well yet and your already at the "this is the solution" stage.. i think we can all agree about the GOAL, reduction of injuries/fatalities under highly loaded wings (or any wings at all really) now define reduction? how many is an acceptable number? We have to know how many total jumps are being made to determine that.. we also should find out how many people are/have been successfully flying highly loaded canopies "in violation" of the proposed BSR. This determines IF there is an EXCESSIVE number of injuries in comparison with the number of jumps being made.. until you have a baseline to compare to you have no frame of reference to tell if 10 per 1000 is to many or if 10 per 10,000 is excessively low. the number of injuries/fatalities should increase as a proportion of the number of jumps being made. This is expected. People make mistakes and hurt themselves when they do, barring the total banning of the sport people will still die while skydiving, no matter how much experience and training they have.. what it is essential to determine is are they being injured at a rate out of proportion to the increase in total jumps and the increase in jumps of HP canopies? Also (roughly) how many lives could conceivably be saved in relation to the number of jumpers who would be unnecessarily (because they have been successfully flying wings the proposed BSR says they shouldnt) restricted in their progression the option to test out is a must, but you have to weigh the time and expense to do so as well against the possible reduction of injuries to determine how involved and at what levels it would best be applied. I think we are getting closer to workable, realistic guidelines but asking 100 people to jump thru hoops to prove they can do something that 2 cannot is regulatory overkill, and we don’t have the data yet to determine where we are… so yes it is necessary to gather more information before making any hasty regulations, only by accurately defining the problem can you find the best solution and we should always strive for the best solution even if that means pausing to collect data at the cost of a few lives, lives that have freely chosen to take the risks they do… how many injuries per year is acceptable? How many per license group? (if that is how we define who needs what training) What % of HP canopy jumps currently end in injury? How many of that % (more important than just straight numbers) could have been prevented by the proposed reg? (and equally important) what % of those successful HP canopy jumps would have been prevented (been illegal) by the reg? I am certainly not against any regulation, but we need to take the time necessary to ensure we enact the best, most effective, and most flexible regulation that accomplishes that goal.. And of course we must accurately define the goal in order to do so.. even if that means collecting more data first.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

this is simply to hard to pass up...the only problem is i need two canopies in that same time frame....decisions decisions.... the easy choice to make was which dz to jump at this weekend...with Kapows turbines off yonder this weekend i just hhaaaaave to head down to the southern state of OR to play in a wingsuit for the beer time.... blame it on eloy cessnas just dont have that turbine vibe..... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

dude that really sucks.....fuck. blue skies Ian ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

yo! where were you yesterday?? there wasnt a single cloud on Rainer!! better question..where are you now? and why arent you on your way to the dz? i am. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

no a business WOULD take the time to do a formal study and the math to go along with it, businesses fail by making hasty decisions, even if they "seem" correct in the experience of people in the field... i'd be interested to see the rest of the numbers you used to come up with any "save rate" since i think your (as is everyone else on either side, since they havent been gathered) missing a few very important factors for that kind of calculation otherwise it falls into the "made up on the spot" statistics..which just isnt very useful to anyone.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

just based on the informal poll here it certainly doesnt.. formal canopy instruction might stop, but i heard quite alot of canopy instruction happening yesterday afternoon, all as part of normal skydive operations.. probably more accurate to say "Why does canopy instruction for 25% of skydivers stop at the end of "student status"?" and actually based on the fatality numbers we have (unfortuately we dont have the injury numbers) it probably even lower.. the problem is people still make mistakes and accidents can and will happen to the best and most qualified...more training will certainly help, but pretending that only 5% of skydivers ever get any more canopy instruction after being licensed is a really bad spot.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

lol could the chip on your shoulder get a little bigger?? i'm having some difficulty spotting it from 13,000 ft. someone asked for opinions, many people gave theirs, you took offense because your opinion disagrees with some of them (like mine) and somehow believe that what anyone else thinks is important in any way other than the weight you give it...no one is 'limiting your potential' but you if you want to call yourself a skydiver (who only does tandems for any reason) then feel free, wont bother me at all, but if you ask if i consider you a skydiver and get pissy when i say no.... well. good riddance to anyone who spends their time waiting to be offended by opinions in the ether... bets she checks in again to make another grande finale... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i think pictures are required actually i'm interested in which kanji you used for 'balance' i can think of several that are apropriate depending on the particular meaning your after... for anyone that ever wonders (and has seen it to wonder) the kanji on the side of my helmet means both Wind and Style (or School depending on the context) ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

is this the same as "depth of field?" ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.