Zenister

Bwahh congratulations N2 you have won a free copy of "Good Stuff" for noticing Maestro and that it was my camera flyers first post! Please PM me with your mailing address. grrr and i saw it within a few min of him posting oh well i've already got a copy..maybe you can talk him into signing it for me? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

unless you want to swim in them again ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

the signs at Eloy are not little, nor are they plastic. Every dropzone i've been to has something similar although perhaps not as obvious. 'Enter at your own risk', means exactly that. Teaching adults to read and understand is far beyond the requirements of a DZ. It would be unfortunate to require waivers simply for the folks who want to come out and watch, but our litigious society, the 'waiting to be offended/appalled' crowd and the increased reliance on rules and regulations in place of personal responsibility are leading that direction ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

see i would. I honestly cheer for the bulls, i think they lose far to often. I'd support a training program to even the odds even more. i think the human should be at roughly equal risk levels with the animal in these kinds of 'duels' as i said before, you should also be able to hunt anything you wish, so long as you do it with a spear. there would be quite a few less humans and more tigers left in the world if this had always been the rule. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

simple. Assumption of risk. At a Demo there are possibly 1000's who have not signed a waiver, have not agreed to participate in a high risk sport, and have no clue of the number of ways in which something could go wrong and injure or kill them due to no fault of their own. Everyone on a DZ is, even the spectators, who have chosen to be at a place where such activities are taking place and usually have plenty of warning signs (and some scars in places) that tell you this is DANGEROUS the canopy pilot in particular should be well aware they might die if they screw up under a high loaded canopy. They make the choice to assume that risk. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

really? or do the 'changes' occur with age and responsibility? which are not the same things..... younger people with less obligations and less experience are more likely to accept higher risks, often but not always, with less knowledge than older individuals. ? while every death is certainly unfortunate, is this really something that we should be regulating? too much? why? [sarcasm]is the human population not growing fast enough?[sarcasm] if you truly care about anyone you think is taking far to much risk in any fashion, personally speak to them about it..... as is skydiving, one of the things that seperates it from the "everyday, average life" as lived by the majority of the human race. do you as skydivers not realize that there are things that make you different from the 'mass' of humanity? get in the plane or do not. get out of the plane or do not. pull or do not. live or die, and all of the tiny decisions (including wingloading) that affect that every moment of every day. the choice is all up to you. how much of that do you want taken away? or decided by others who dont even know your name? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

which is exactly what we have not defined. how many significant yet another definition we need, but i'd start with 'required trained medical attention' incidents do we have? Out of how many total possible occurances? personally its kind of appalling that we support a legal system where reporting simple facts such as this that would allow you to make informed decisions about safety can potential cause enough legal and finacial ramifications that it is not done... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

both. i think it is far to important an issue to allow invalid arguments to stand as justification. access to better education programs are certainly nessesary. Mandatory education is not, at least in the US where the freedom to be as stupid, or radically different from the norm is an important right. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

exactly, it was a hop and pop. Andy did much the same jump off Lucas's shoulders at an insanely low altitude during the Strawberry fest......of course he has a BASE canopy, but it was probably the most ballsy thing ive ever seen... some people are simple amazing. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

again no i have a very good idea, i just dont know the exact number number of potential occurrences is easy. Every skydive made with more than one person in the air at the same time. wanna bet that number is pretty high in comparison? i'm sorry if simple inference (an admitely inaccurate method) appears as "horribly misguided" to you... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

nope i have a good idea that the numbers are VERY low based on the number of reported injuries and and number of potential occurrences. admittedly (and unfortunately) there is alot of inference. However creating regulation to protect everyone from even the most remote possibility is impossible. Far better to address the issues that are verifiable risks to everyone everyday. you could die of a meteor strike in the next few min, (and its possible that someone here knows someone who has) but the chances of it happening are far to low to justify the effort and expense of a defensive shield to prevent it.. i'll ignore the rest of your rant since its incorrect and irrelevant to the discussion..much better if you dont assume my intent or my ability since you dont know me at all.. edit: since i shouldnt try to do 5 things at once...silly spelling... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

nope the individual any event (no matter how uncommon or improbable) happens to cares nothing for the odds. All they know is it happened to them however the if the odds of such events are not of statistical significance (likely to happen with regularity if not addressed) they shouldn’t be used to justify regulation that affects everyone. i dont have exact numbers either (i wish we did it would make ALOT of this discussion much easier) but it fairly to compare the small number of collisions that are reported with the frequency with which they could occur (every load with more than one jumper) and tell there isnt a glaring issue here, no matter how profile the recent fatality might be.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

cool ONE! out of how many potential opportunities? care to guess what the odds are now? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

1 or 2!?!? wow your pushing it into the heat and DD zone... usually by 11 it is already starting to get bumpy ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

get out early, jump till noonish, start drinking beer and count the dustdevils. actually i'm glad i'm at Kapowsin this time of year..we're jumping past 9pm here ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

a hard helmet puts the surface 3-4 inches (depending on helmet) closer to the TMs teeth.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i'm not forcing you to do anything..i'm pointing out that the basis for your prefrence of salad vs meat is an emotional response. That there is no difference between taking one life or another to feed yourself except that you value one more, and that that value system is completely personal, and not based on any fact other than emotional empathy. this does not mean vegetarians are 'wrong' but it does mean they arent any more 'right' than a carnivore. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

and the majority of skydiving helmets wont do much to help you from that kind of impact anyway... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

they do when you put them is the Juicer... lol they scream too if you mic them right ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Yes, the studies control for sex. Put more simply, female vegetarians live longer than female non-vegetarians. Male vegetarians live longer than male non-vegetarians. did they control for otherwise healthy life styles? did they ensure the groups as an average were equally health conscious otherwise? not likely. no study i've ever seen has..i'd be interested if you have one that does.. vegetarians tend to pay more attention to EVERYTHING they do & ingest. That awareness leads to a longer and more healthy life span, not the choice to eat meat or no.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Oh come on, not the plant argument! I guess I need to spell out I am talking about living things with CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEMS. so your importance to the 'life cycle' and your place in it is determined by your ability to experience pain? a bit unenlightened dont you think? life is life. somethings are nessesary. Unenlightened? I don't even know how to respond to that. All I am saying is that, no, watching a plant be dismembered does not hurt my feelings. Watching a person or animal be dismembered? Yes that hurts my feelings. Why? The former does not feel pain and suffering, the latter does. It's pretty simple. so your basing a scientific observation (killing animals is bad, but killing plants is ok) on an emotional response? enlightenment is recognizing that ALL life has value and that it is taken to benifit other lives as part of a continuing cycle. Respect for the sacrifice (unwilling in all cases) of another life (any life) is far more important than "feeling' good because carrots dont bleed... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Oh come on, not the plant argument! I guess I need to spell out I am talking about living things with CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEMS. so your importance to the 'life cycle' and your place in it is determined by your ability to experience pain? a bit unenlightened dont you think? life is life. somethings are nessesary. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

no they are not, not by any virtue of vegetarianism, the difference is your average vegetarian is more health conscious in general than your average meat eater. That overall health awareness and the lifestyle choices that go with it is what makes the difference, not the specific preference not to eat meat.. as you say educate yourself, but learn to read thru the agendas on each side as well, i know quite a number of carnivorous humans who would run your average vegetarian into the ground and keep going longer and with less pack volume and processing steps by eating meat than a vegetarian would on their substitutes.. check your facts.. dogs and cats are omnivores, as are lots of snakes...and gator meat is GOOD when prepared right.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

\ nice post, i agree mostly but feel obligated to point out that the same distinctions and argument can apply from one human to the next... some peoples lives are more valuable (to an individual not as a society) than others.. compassion is what allows everyone to tolerate each other... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.