davelepka

I'll use this oppertunity to resond to your opst, as well as Matts reply to me post. I don't know Matt, or whats he's flying. It doens't matter. The whole premise is that if you follow the guidelines set forth for the general public, you are making a safe, conservative choice. Any attempt to stray from that, is banking on some sort of feeling that you should be exempt from those guidelines. Furthermore, Matt's situation isn;t relative to the fact that he is resistant to the idea that everyoen should follow the same guidelines. I come back to my core argument. EVERYONE pulls at 2k or above. It is possible to pull lower, and be fine, but it's not doen (intentionally, or by smart people). If EVERYONE would cool their jets, and follow the guidelines, opencanopy incidents would be reduced, and I'm sure that we would be producing a higher quality of canopy pilot.

I think you're taking what I said out of context. BASIC canopy flight is that simple. Case in point, all of the first jump students I have talked down. If they listen to my commands, they will land softly, and on target. They provide the muscle, I provide the brain power. The level of jumper who needs to be referencing the chart is engaged in just that, BASIC canopy flight. The act of controling the canopy is as simple as can be, it's having the judgement to deciede where to fly, and when to fly there, that comes into play. That judgement can only be gained through training and experience. During the process of said training and gaining that experience, you need to make safe and conservative choices for the things you can control, such as your canopy selection. Granted, HP canopy fligth is a different story. Hand eye coordination, depth perception, balance, and reaction times all came into play when making an HP canopy pilot.

Here's the thing, whoever told you that you are fine, beleives that you're OK due to their impression of your skills, garnered from their exposure to you under canopy. None of this can account for all the situations will encounter. With this in mind, your safest choice will be inline with the reccomendations of those who came up with suggestions based on the 'general' population, not based on a case-by-case consideration. By using one persons (or even a few peoples) opinion on your perticular situation, you are assuming that you are an exception, not the norm. Furthermore, the fact that you would have to ask, or that someone would feel the need to comment, indicates that your choice may be outside of the norm. I haven't asked if I'll be OK under any canopy, nor has anyone volentered that I'll do fine under a certain canopy in a long time. Why? Because anything I jump is inline with what I (and others) expect I can handle, no questions asked. You may be an exception. Won't know for sure until it's hindsight, or possibly, too late. There's no way to argue with that. I hope that it's the former, as I don't want to make an example out of anyone, but coming up with reasons why NOT to stick with the mainstream and play it safe, (reasons which all are based on possibiblites) is foolish. Additionally, it adds fuel to the fire that keeps things like the proliferation of such a WL chart down. Wouldn't a better course of action be to back such a plan, even if you personally don't intend to follow it? If you truely beleive yourself to be an exception to the norm, wouldn't you want to see all the 'average' canopy pilots out there have something to hang on to while trying to come up to your level?

This where you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what's going on. Flying a canopy at 100% of it's limits is not pushing the canopy. The canopy will not skid off the road, or flip over, like a car pushed too far will. If flown properly, flying a canopy to it's fullest potential presents zero operational issues for the canopy. It does however, get you used to the speed at which things happen. When you downsize, you may be going that speed, when only realizing 50% of your new canopies potential, which you may be able to do on your first jump with the new canopy. You can't compare cars to canopies. Yeah, if you want to hang a curve at 75mph, it's better to be in a car that could do it a 100mph, and only be at 75% of the limit, than be in a Hyundai with the tires peeling off the rims. Car aren't canopies, and if you can't fly your current wing at 100%, downsizing is just asking for trouble.

Well, in my defence, you are off the chart, and you do have a reason why it doesn't apply to you. Do you think that the jumpers invlovled in open canopy incendents ever thought it COULD happen to them? Did they believe thay were on a one-way street to the ER? Or did they think that they could handle it, and that everyone who didn't was being overly cautious? ONE MORE TIME, FOR THOSE IN THE BACK, you could dump at 1k for years without a problem. If there was a problem, however, that extra 1000ft you'd have if you followed the BSR's would really be handy. Which is why the BSR's say get it out at 2k, and this applies to EVERYONE. Me, you, and Omar (who apparently has 14,500+ jumps, wow). You could jump whatever you want, however you want for a long time, without a problem. BUT, there is a problem, too many people are getting hurt or killed with open canopies. What is the solution? Regulate only those jumpers who aren't going to get hurt? OK, produce an accurate list, and if you're not on it, have fun. Thats not possible. Lets get everyone to slow it down, take it one step at a time, and all be safe. If you are the exception, too bad. Take one for the team, and follow the guidelines. If EVERYONE follows the guidelines, things will be better. Stop thinking that you're an exception. Go with what smart people are roccomending. And soon enough you will have your 1000 jumps, and nobody will question what you do.

If you haven't hurt yourself yet, great. What do think the future holds? You admit you feel your Wl is aggresive, why not do something about it? Upsizing is done all the time. Lots of guys upsize AFTER an injury, so tey can ease back into things. Is this really the time to upsize? How about before the injury, and preventing the injury all together?

Talent doesn't exist. Flying a canopy is just moving your arms up and down. The trick is getting your brain to make the right choices. Why try to get people follow the progression? It's like my example, you COULD pull at 1k for years, and not have a problem. If you did have a problem, an extra 1000 ft would really help out. With the possibiblity of a problem out there, the BSR's tell you to get your PC out at 2k, every time. You COULD jump whatever you think is cool, or will fit in your cool looking rig without a problem. If there is a problem, what then? The answer is to pack the proverbial extra 1000 ft in your container (as in a larger canopy). I can't say that followig the chart will ensure ones safety, but I can say that you're better off following it. With that in mind, why the hell would anyone give away an extra dose of safety?

Good point. Wingloading / Number of Jumps 1.0 /

So there is a WL never exceed chart in Brian Germains book, and many folks seem to have a problem accepting the info. It's no coincidence, however, that most of the protesters are those who are currently exceeding Brian's reccomendations. Some of the arguments are, "Bif was at 26 to 1 with 14 jumps, and he did fine" or, "Those numbers are so conservative, it's for the 'average' canopy pilot, and I have a freind with 500 jumps who says I'll be fine". The central theme to the argument is that there are too many factors involved for that chart to really apply to everyone ( although actual factors such as field elevation and really light people lightly-loading small canopies are considered). Let's consider the fact that Brian is the ONLY guy who though about this enough, in enough detail to write a failry lengthy book about it. Consdier his education, as well as the fact the he designs and builds canopies, along with his recognized excellence in running canopy control courses, and this shoud be enough to take his word that his numbers are good. BUT NO, every jackass off his chart has a reason why his numbers don't add up (or apply to them). Here's the thing, his numbers don't have to add up. His backround, experience, and reputaion do add up, and they add up to much more than the sum of the individual parts. Anywho. here's my point: If we compare the number of incidents where a jumper deployed thier main too low to complete a reserve deployment, with the number of incidents where a fully functioning canopy was mis-handled in some way, we'll find that the main canopy incidents, far outweigh the low pull incidents. Why, then, are these same people not protesting the 2000ft min. pack opening altitude? 2k ft is just another number somebody came up with (much like Brian's numbers) but nobody is protesting that figure. The stats support that you can dump at 1k all day long and be just fine. I, for example, have no cutaways, and maybe a dozen or so less than ideal deployments in the last 2000 jumps. I could have been dumping a 1k all along, and been just fine; landing off alot, but fine. 2k is not just another number, it's the result of some careful consideration by some informed people. The low inciedence of jumpers running out of altitude to fix a problem supports that. Likewise, Brian's numbers are valid, and the fact that there are protesters, and many more who aren't even aware of the chart, but are exceeding it's values, combined with the (relative to total number of incidents) high occurences of open canopy incidents supports that. WAKE UP PEOPLE. SMART POEPLE ARE TRYING TO HELP YOU. SHUT UP AND LISTEN. Happy holidays. Edit: Once again, if you agree, indicate so by NOT posting. I don't want to hear it, or have it in my inbox. Those who disagree, have at it.

You can look at the statement as you quoted it, and argue the merits of RW skills as applied to freeflying. Maybe. OR, you can look at the entire post, and the spirit of what I was saying. I stand by the fact that at 16 jumps, his time, money and effort should focused on canopy control, and making actual skiydives. Mastering centerpoint turns should not be on his 'to do' list just yet. The only jump you won't need canopy control skills for is your last.

Spend your money on real jumps, with a ground based canopy coach. Learning to fly a canopy is far more important than fine tuning your freefall skills. If you are able to achieve a stable deployment position in freefall, you have the survival skills you need to get through freefall. Landing your canopy is a complex and important skill which should be your number one priority. At 16 jumps, you can count on needing your canopy control skills on every jump you make for the rest of your life. If after 100 jumps you should get into freeflying, or swooping (hop n pops) your tunnel training will be of little value to you.

Right off the top, how does the rig not fit? That would be my number one concern with the whole thing. If the fit is poor enough that a premature opening (while trying to sit) could spit her out of (or partially) the harness, thats a problem. As far as marginal currency, a new DZ, and a new-to-her canopy, that could go either way. Maybe if she did a few two-way RW jumps to get current and get to know the DZ, that might be a good idea. I understand that there is an S&TA invovled, which seems like a good thing, but if there is a remote possibility that he (or anyone else involved) is trying to get into her pants (or is already there), that certainly clouds thier judgement, and shoud be considered.

You just answered your own question Wing loading and openings are unrelated, unless you are so light that you are falling slow, then your canopy opens slower (as in better). As far as turning and diving, you liked the 120. You're the one jumping it, and your opinion is the only one that matters. Despite what I wrote above, you know that many canopies can be had in a 107 (as in smaller than a 120, bigger than sub-100).

***I've known a student Cypres to fire on a Skyvan emergency landing. All the experienced skydivers got out, and the JMs stayed with the AFF student ================================== That sounds fishy. So there was enough of a problem that they evacuated the jumpers, then proceeded to wing over the crippled Skyvan, with student and JM's on board, to a sufficent decent rate to acitvate the Cypres? I would check your facts. Furthermore, if there was an engine out, the plane coule AT LEAST maintain altutude, if not continue to climb (at a dimal rate). Any excessive diving in the pattern or near the airport is at the pilots discretion, not an operation requirement. Any Skyvan pilots out ther with the single engine performace numbers handy? Or landing SOP's?

***Vengence/Velocity ============================= Those two canopies don't belong together. I don't think that the Katana and Vengeance should be in the same sentence either. Many people seem to underestimate the Katana. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the PD team guys could put one in the top ten at a PST meet.

Your not the prime target of the post, but if you can remember it down the road, I'm glad you read it. Give yourself a couple hundred jumps, and maybe some success in your chosen freefall pastime, and then you'll be the guy I'm targeting. Many jumpers at that point feel as if they can do anything. The learning curve in those early days is so steep, that it's easy to believe that becasue you've learned so much. you must be close to having learned everything. It's not true. What you can do right now, however, is spend at least as much time talking about canopy flight as you do freefall. Many instructors will lay out a canopy flight plan, and if it goes well, just say, 'atta boy', and move on to go into minute detail about your freefall and exit. Push them to tell you more about canopies. Ask them what course of action to take in different eventualties, much like they will drill you on regarding the freefall. When you get off student status, be smart in choosing your canopies. Once you have purchased your first canopy, seek out a canopy coaching program. Look at the info out there, and realize that you are not special, you're just another data point in the statistcis. Which side of the pie chart you're on is up to you. Theres a guy who posts here who has a sig line that says "If you can't be killed doing it, it's not a sport, it's just a game". Well, for the most part, freefall is a game, landing your canopy is a sport.

***take a step back and really look at what they are doing and make sure we are doing it in the safest manner possible. Think in terms of a thousand jumps instead of a hundred ==================================== Thats another good point. My assertion was that the equipment has vaulted ahead of the training, which is true, but additionally, the top end of the performance envelope has also gone up significantly. I wouldn't regard a guy with 750 jumps as a novice, much to the contrary. 750 jumps is enough to qualify for all of the instructional ratings, and it represents a commendable dedication to the sport. I wouldn't think twice about jumping with such a person, and wouldn't be surprised to hear if they were on a 100 way, or built a ten-way head down formation. HOWEVER, in terms of canopy piloting, it is just a drop in the bucket. That jumper is essentially a novice. Once you hit 1.5 or 1.6, you need to be putting at least 500 jumps on a canopy to really be an 'expert' on that wing/wingloading, and be ready for a downsize. At 750 jumps, unless you had followed an overly aggressive progression, you'll just be halfway into your first 'hp' wingloading. A newbie.

I hate to pull the "I have more experience" card, as it seems like an excuse for a lack of a real answer, but, it this case the differences in our experience levels plays a factor. What you may not be aware of (by no fault of your own) is that there has been a pattern forming over the last several years in which deaths or serious injuries involving open, properly functioning parachutes has been on the rise. The primary reason is the advancement of the equipment has far surpassed the advancement of the training, which used to be quite minimal, but given the nature of parachures ten years ago, it was adequate. I understand that at your level, there is a pretty big 'Gee Whiz" factor in skydiving. Thats not a bad thing, in fact in some ways I envy you for it, but over time, and with eperience, you'll begin to see that the equipment and safety procedues in place do a pretty decent job of keeping people in one piece. It's the lack of in depth training and education in canopy piloting that is getting people in the end. The very fact that someone can get to the point of landing a good canopy shows this. Aircraft, freefall, and deployment all went well, indicating that the systems are working. When it comes time to land, the gap in the system is revealed. This is not limited to swoopers per say, many of the incidents involve low time jumpers, with docile canopies at a low wing loading, who make bad choices in the face of an off field landing, or an obstacle/traffic situation. As far as ego is concerned, I address that when I suggest that the opinion of your fellow jumpers should hold little water when making choices that could impact your mobiblity for the rest of your life. Truth be told, if the 'cool' thing to do was to keep wing loading in-line with experience, seek additional training in canopy piloting, and continuosly try to better yourself in that area, then thats what the ego driven people would have to do to get the stroking they seem to desire.

Thats quite a show you put on there, now lets review how your precursory glance at my post resulted in some errors in yours. For starters, I didn't rant nor rave about safety or donwsizing. I did, however comment on some of the long term effects that poor decision making has on an individual and thier fanily. Never once did I reference myself, or any person who would not listen to me. I jump at a DZ where this isn't a factor. The management is determined to keep people safe and jumping, and they teach it from day one. They follow it up by hosting mulitple Scott Miller camps each year, and encouraging everyone (staff included) to enroll. We don't have problems with people who are pushing the limits of when they downsize, or start swooping, hence, I personally don't have to deal with trying to help people who don't want to listen. I did state that my thread was inspired by the revival of another thread in which a more experienced jumper was in that very position, but his story ended with massive injuries to the jumper he was trying to advise. As for as the circle jerk you were expecting, I clearly stated that anyone who agreed with my post should indicate so by NOT posting a reply. I have no interest in reading 'Way to go!" 64 times anymore than you do. As far as my audience is concerned, I never suggested that downsizing nor swooping was a bad idea. I've been jumping at 2.0 for 6 or 7 years, and have been swooping all along. I'm bumping that up to 2.3 in my primary rig, and am looking forward to moving past the 450 toward some bigger turns. Swooping is fucking great. My assertion was that it needs to be approached in a logical manner consistent with the standards of the experts. I am fully behind any jumper who wants to start swooping, as long as it is done in a reasonable fashion, such as with a slow and methodical pattern of donwsizing mixed with either professional coaching, or at least the input of a highly experienced mentor. As far as the consequences are concerned, I have personal experience with people who were hurt years ago on the DZ, and after realizing they would not recover to jump again, they stopped coming to the DZ. To the newbie, they are out-of-sight out-of-mind. The fact remains that these people will suffer for the rest of the lives, and that finaltiy needs to be understood by anyone considering pushing the limits of canopy piloting. With that formaltiy out of the way, here's what I think: You're not cynical, you're a douche. Don't let your apathy get in the way of anothers enthusiasm for trying to fix a problem that is killing skydivers. With your quick glance at my post, and your elaborate response, you must fancy yourself to be somewhat knowledgable, so you're the very thing we need at the DZ supporting safe canopy piloting. With your experience and knowledge, younger jumpers will respect your opinion, and follw your lead. Instead, in a public forum, you draw up a lengthy opposition to a guy who is trying to help. Now your not just slowing progress at your home DZ, but across the country. For all your assertions of mistakes I made in my post, you offer no suggestion for alternatives, and then you suggest that I am wasting bandwith. Perhaps you are cynical, and perhaps you are OK with that, but you definately are a douche, and I hope your not OK with that.

***By spending a lot of time (reading) on the board --------------------------------------------------------- I regularly (almost daily) speak with jumpers on the phone who read the board every day, but have never, and will never, post anything. Given the small group of jumpers I'm tight with, it leads me to believe that there are many more like them out there.

***Quite frankly, it CAN happen to you but there are things that you can do to help prevent injury =================================== Indeed. Ten years and thousands of jumps later, I find myself scared silly of things that would have never phased me in my fisrt few years and few hundred jumps. Am I simply growing into a big chicken? No. Have I learned that I should have been scared then, but was too ignorant to know it? Yes. Did luck bring me through unharmed? Yes. Should we soldier on and assume that luck will carry all the ignorant jumpers through unharmed? I don't think so, but some of the replies to my original post seem to indicate that others don't agree.

***So how do you take a mentality that is required to jump and stifle it in the right perimeters? ===================================== Try real hard. Try real hard all the time, with every jumper you encounter. Encourage them to do the same. There are some hard and fast rules of skydiving. Opening a canopy before impact is one of them. Lets make a logical progression through canopy piloting skills and sizes another one of them.

***The problem is the majority of the audience on this forum is not the people with

The revival of the "I'm angry as hell" thread, mixed with the recent over time the reaper has been putting in has prompted me to re-post some thoughts for the new guys. Skydiving is a dangerous activity, and accidents happen even if you follow all the rules, and heed the advice of others. When you disregard commonly followed industry standards or practices, or blow off the warnings or advice of those you are trying to emulate, any resulting injuries or deaths aren't accidents, they are avoidable, stupidity induced incidents. Take a moment and consider the following: Whatever you had envisioned your life to be like, whatever hopes and aspirations you had for yourself, will all be radically changed if you are confined to a wheelchair. Imagine the pain and heartache your friends and family will feel when you are laid up in the ICU of some hospital. What happens when the Dr. tells them you will never walk again? What happens to the hopes they had for their own life? Do you think they included one of their children being violently confined to a wheelchair? Who is going to accept the burden (be it financial or emotional) if you are in need of long term care? Long term as in the rest of your life. If the worst should happen, and you don't survive trying to land your properly functioning parachute, are there people in your life who count on you for support (again both financial or emotional)? Where do they turn when you are gone? Picture your mother sitting at your funeral, would you want her to know that you are in a box because you were sure that you knew better than the experienced jumpers you were trying to emulate? That your death was not a freak and unexpected accident, but the result of gross negligence on your part, and that others had predicted such an outcome? With that in mind, what's the rush? What even is the goal? To impress your friends? To be Joe Cool on the DZ? Are either of those ends worth the possible price outlined above? Is the opinion of other jumpers worth risking the health and well-being of both you and your family? Maybe you don't care what others think, and you live for the swoop. In that case, realize that the guys who get the most out of their swoops (J-Mo, JC, Slaton, etc) have been jumping for years, before swooping was even a word, working their way up to where and what they are doing now. If you really feel that swooping is in your heart, then have enough respect for it to follow in the masters footsteps, not try to leapfrog over them. OK, I'm done blowing sunshine, now lets get serious. I don't need to know that you agree with me, so if you do, indicate it by NOT posting on this thread. We don't need an 8 page thread of "Hell yeah"s and "Here here"s. Anyone who thinks I'm wrong, on the other hand, I'm eagerly awaiting your response and viewpoint.

Yeah, good idea. Anyone out there in cyberland have an update on the guy who inspired this thread? Five months later, whats his life been like since then? Whats his life look like into the future?