Hooknswoop

Yes, yes I do. It would seem it is open season on PA's. Derek

Too many to think about. 1 Wrapped a guy wire on a BASE jump. 2 Lost all vacuum in a Beech Baron while IFR. 3 Had a premature deployment while laying on the wing of an RV-4 at 500ft, hanging up on the tail and destroying the canopy. 4 Several very close calls doing AFFI jumps 5 Went down to tunnel vision and couldn't lify my hands to the cutaway handle under malfunctioning FX-79. 6 Had the tail rotor of an AH-64A Apache miss me by inches after I hit the deck at night in the desert 7 Had a knife pulled on me (Don't bring a knife to a gunfight) 8 Free climbed a wet, icy, and snowy North Face of Longs Peak 9 800 tandems jumps enough said 10 Hit sand followed shortly thereafter by the curb on a motorcycle. There's more, but I'm trying to forget them Derek

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1073236;search_string=rsl%20myths;#1073236 I agree 100% People got hung up on that. It was to make a point, not a real number. Since people didn't grasp that, I use "vast majaority" instead. Moving on. Derek

OK, that makes sense to me. Derek

A jumper can be very safe without an RSL. During a ‘normal’ malfunction and cutaway, an RSL is not a good thing to have. Of course any piece of gear can cause you problems. An RSL makes it likely you will deploy your reserve unstable. That is bad. It is only good when there is the greater evil of otherwise impacting the ground with nothing out. So, an RSL is good when it is the lesser of two evils and bad during the vast majority of cutaways. The problem is the RSL will activate the reserve in either scenario. It doesn’t know if it is helping or not. For my 14 cutaways, we agree an RSL would have been a bad idea. But if I would have had one for just in case, I would have had 14 cases where I gave the RSL the opportunity to make things worse and none to make things better. I think we can agree for the majority of reserve rides, where the jumper cuts away and deploys the reserve just fine, the RSL would not have helped and could have made things worse. This means, for the majority of reserve rides where the jumper had an RSL, it made things worse and not better. If you have an RSL, you are betting that it is more likely to save you than hurt you, but the odds are against you. You are more likely to have a normal cutaway and reserve deployment, not needing an RSL, than be in a situation where you need the RSL. Out of 100 RSL-equipped malfunctions, how many did the RSL save the jumper? How many does the RSL make things worse. I believe that the RSL makes things worse more often than it saves people simply because on most reserve rides it isn’t needed. If it isn’t needed, it is making things worse. A cutaway or two doesn’t change the odds of the RSL helping the jumper or hurting the jumper. If you must have an RSL, get a Skyhook. Derek

Wrong again Brett. Here ya go: "Description: The Navy was at Elsinore training Seals; they had their own instructors and their own equipment. At the time of this report, no detailed analysis of the rig has yet been made. This report is based on preliminary examinations and eyewitness accounts. The student ( training under the Navy's equivalent of AFF) deployed his main normally at around 4500 feet. During the main deployment the RSL somehow deployed his reserve which then entangled in the main. Someone supposedly had seen that his main was square and apparently flyable while the reserve was completely fouled and entangled in his main lines. No one directly witnessed the incident while the student was between 4000 and 2500 feet. Somewhere during that interval the student apparently cutaway his main which then collapsed and remained entangled with his fouled reserve. It was believed that if he had not cutaway, he may have been able to land relatively safely on his main. The reserve was apparently NOT deployed by his CYPRES: the preliminary examination revealed a kink in the reserve ripcord where the RSL must have pulled against it while it was still under tension from the closing loop. As soon as the rig is released by the coroner more detailed examinations are going to happen by the DZO, the USPA, the rig manufacturer and the Navy. It is unknown at this time what pulled the RSL, it may have been improperly routed and was pulled on line stretch, or it may have been caught by a toggle. It is also unknown if this type of malfunction is particular to this type of rig or is an industry-wide concern. The Navy has stood down their training and grounded all of their equipment until more is known about the true cause of the incident" Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? 1/30/1997 Taupo, New Zealand MAL,DMAL? 35 2500 ?/Y Description: After cutting away from a malfunction, it appears one riser hung up, while the side with the RSL released, casuing the reserve to deploy between the remaining riser. This riser then seperated, and the main ending up choking off the reserve. The pair decended on the partially inflated main which was caught on the wholly uninflated reserve. Lessons:Some of the above is speculation, but it's a good reminder to perform your three ring maintenance regularly. If you don't know what I'm referring to, you should talk to your local rigger. In a nutshell, disconnect your main, flex the webbing of the three ring, clean the yellow cable with a dry cloth, (for metal housings) lightly oil the cable, reconnect the main, perform a line check, and pack it. How about this one? 6/22/1997 Umatilla, FL MAL? 42 7500 Y?/Y Description: At the end of a normal tandem skydiver, the student pulled the ripcord at about 5500 feet. The left main riser broke, which in turn activated the reserve static line lanyard (RSL). The RSL immediately pulled the reserve ripcord cables while the right-hand main riser was still attached. The reserve pilot chute and free-bag cleared, but the reserve canopy entangled with the spinning main. The main was then cut away, but failed to clear the reserve. The student survived the landing, the JM did not. The Master 425 main was equipped Dacron with suspension lines. The type VII risers were manufactured in May 1996 and had the new heavy duty 3-rings. The rings were properly positioned during drogue fall, and appeared normal. The type VII webbing broke about 1" above the lower end; the type IV holding the small ring broke just below the grommet. Neither of the two rings from the left riser were recovered, nor was the cutaway handle or the reserve ripcord. All equipment was less than three years old and in good condition. Instructor and student total weight was about 380 pounds. Lessons:Perhaps a defective riser? Heres another: Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? 7/12/2000 Elsinore, CA DMAL 27 Y/Y Description: The Navy was at Elsinore training Seals; they had their own instructors and their own equipment. At the time of this report, no detailed analysis of the rig has yet been made. This report is based on preliminary examinations and eyewitness accounts. The student ( training under the Navy's equivalent of AFF) deployed his main normally at around 4500 feet. During the main deployment the RSL somehow deployed his reserve which then entangled in the main. Someone supposedly had seen that his main was square and apparently flyable while the reserve was completely fouled and entangled in his main lines. No one directly witnessed the incident while the student was between 4000 and 2500 feet. Somewhere during that interval the student apparently cutaway his main which then collapsed and remained entangled with his fouled reserve. It was believed that if he had not cutaway, he may have been able to land relatively safely on his main. The reserve was apparently NOT deployed by his CYPRES: the preliminary examination revealed a kink in the reserve ripcord where the RSL must have pulled against it while it was still under tension from the closing loop. As soon as the rig is released by the coroner more detailed examinations are going to happen by the DZO, the USPA, the rig manufacturer and the Navy. It is unknown at this time what pulled the RSL, it may have been improperly routed and was pulled on line stretch, or it may have been caught by a toggle. It is also unknown if this type of malfunction is particular to this type of rig or is an industry-wide concern. The Navy has stood down their training and grounded all of their equipment until more is known about the true cause of the incident. Lessons:Dual canopy out malfunctions are nasty. Discuss appropriate procedures with a local instructor. Cutting away from an inflated main when the reserve fouled is not a recommended course of action. One that can show the drawbacks of an RSL. Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? 9/22/2001 Picton, Australia DMAL 34 360 ?/Y Description: After a camera jump, this jumper experienced spinning line twists on his Stilleto 135. He was unable to clear them and cutaway at perhaps 1800'. His reserve (an Airforce 120) opened (via RSL, though reserve handle was also pulled roughly simultaneously) slider-up with line twists, and he impacted in a spin still trying to kick out of the twists. The reserve was very highly loaded, at 1.7 lb/ft^2. Video review of the incident shows that the deceased may have been kicking the wrong direction to get the reserve to untwist, and was not observed to be pulling the risers apart to aid the untwisting. Lessons:There is some reason to believe that pausing briefly after cutting away from a seriously spinning malfunction can aid in reserve deployment. However, pausing also eats up valuable altitude, which is also an increased risk. An RSL removes your choice in this matter, but does insure a rapid deployment after a low cutaway. Note that this forum doesn't post the incidents where someone cutaway low, and their RSL saves them. Another one. 9/30/2001 Opelika, AL DMAL 48 308 Y/Y Description: Due to a hard opening, this jumper broke one of the D lines on his canopy, a 230 Rascal. it went into a spin, so he cut it away. The rapid deployment of the reserve via the RSL resulted in his capturing the reserve pilot chute on his right arm. One report indicates the reserve lines also entangled with his neck. The reserve never cleared the freebag. He was found dead at the scene. A second report from someone involved with the investigation reports that the RSL had nothing to do with it; I await further details. Lessons:RSL's are a mixed blessing. For novice jumpers, they provide insurance against failure to pull the reserve after a cutaway, a relatively frequent occurrence in the pre-CYPRES past. This incident may illustrate the downside of an RSL. For having been in the sport so long and claiming to know so much, I’m amazed that someone like me knows about these incidents and you don’t. There are more, if you look for them. BTW- How’s the anger management going? Derek

Of course, but which has the higher probability of causing you a problem vs. helping you with a malfunctioning main? We already agreed that in a 'normal' cutaway situation, a skydiver is better off without an RSL. The same cannot be said for a reserve. Derek

The odds of a reserve causing someone a problem and the odds of an RSL causing someone a problem are not the same and they are not zero. Derek

they could have deployed their reserves though. They didn't do that. The end result was a long chain of events. An RSL is a band-aid fix to those mistakes. Again, you can always see the ground. Derek

LOL- Nope, just my opinion. The concept is a good-natured discussion/argument where people learn. Maybe seen things from an angle they haven't seen them before. Anything can happen. A reserve canmal when the jumper is stable and open great when they are not. there are no definates when it comes to parachutes Derek

I dunno, but discussions like this are excellent for people to look at both sides and make better choices or themselves. There is no right or wrong, but the more information out there, the better people can make the right choice for them. When will Skyhooks be an option on all rigs? Derek

Exactly. It is better that I did not have an RSL. If I had been vvery low and failed to pull my reserve immediately, then I would have been much better off with one. But the RSL cannot make those distinctions. So it'll help if you are very low and don't pull the reserve yourself immediately as an RSL would, but can cause problems in a 'normal' cutaway. The difference bewteen your reserve and an RSL, is the chances of the reserve causing a problem vs. saving you are much different than an RSL. You are much more likely to need your reserve than have the reserve pre-maturely deploy and cause a problem. With an RSL, you could have a bunch of mals where you don't need it (like I didn't) and it only make things worse for you. You can deal with a malfunction just fine without an RSL, you can't deal with a malfunction just fine without a reserve. They are very different things. Derek

http://www.angercoach.com/ Derek

You didn't answer the question. Let me re-phrase it. On those 14 skydives where my main malfunctioned, would I have been better off with or without an RSL? Derek

That isn't necessarily a good thing. Deploying the reserve immediately after cutting away has led to fatalities. I would rather be stable for the reserve deployment, giving my reserve the best chance to open cleanly, than watch my freebag go between my legs. Unfortunately there are no real numbers to use. Taking my experiences with malfunctions as an example, an RSL would not have helped me one bit in any of my mals, and only could have made things worse with an unstable reserve deployment. I never found myself low on my back after cutting away, but if I had, I would have deployed immediately and taken my chances. I was always able to take a small delay, getting my shoulders even to the relative wind with my chest into the wind before firing off the reserve. If I would have had an RSL, I would have had some interesting reserve deployments, especially the tandem bag-lock where one riser was slow to release. Look in the fatalities lists. RSL's have killed people. They don't very often, but they do too often. As Ron put it very well, they take away options and complicate emergency procedures. We'll never know how many real RSL's saves there are since the jump that has one and has a mal never gets the chance to save themselves. We'll also never know how many people go in sub-consciencly expecting their RSL to deploy their reserve. I strongly believe that some of the cutaways without a reserve pull are because the jumper was used to the RSL and it either wasn't connected or they were jumping a rig without one. They have a cutaway, the RSL beats them to the reserve pull, so they don't bother pulling it. Next time, no RSL, they expect the familar "G's" of the reserve deploying, but feel nothing and panic sets in. They never pull the reseve handle thinking something is wrong. So, they go in and people say an RSL would have saved them. Well, it would have, but it caused the initial problem in the first place. Never having one would have saved them too. I have seen a lot of non-RSL reserve rides, where the RSL would have caused the reserve to deploy while the jumper was un-stable. Instead the jumper cutaway, got stable, and deployed the reserve in plenty of altitude. You can always deploy the reserve very quickly after cutting away if you wish. Without an RSL, you can take a delay. With an RSL, you cannot. Are there times when an RSL saved a jumper? Yes, definately. Of course the jumper could have saved themselves by deploying at safe altitude, picked appropriate gear, maintained their gear, etc and avoid the situation entirely. You have to make several mistakes to be cutting away that low. Derek

What if one of them was? I pulled the reserve and was fine. An RSL still wouldn't have helped. What if on one of the cutaways from a violently spinning VX-60, I had entangled with my reserve PC bridle? I think we should stick to comparing malfunction jumps with and without RSL's. Jumps where the main didn't mal are revellent to a discussion about RSL's. Derek

I'm using my cutaways to make a point. I was fine w/o an RSL, but I could have had a problem had I had one. The only time an RSL (or reserve for that matter)makes a difference is during a malfunction. No mal, RSL and reserve is moot. So, comparing apples to apples, during a mal, a reserve will definately help, whereas an RSL may help or hurt. So, if everyone had RSL's, that is a lot of malfunctions witht he reserve being deployed as the main is cutaway, wether that is the best course of action or not. That would mean an increase in RSL-caused reserve malfunctions. Derek Derek

I would guess less than 50%. Derek

Because that would miss the point. Why is everything. My point is RSL's aren't useless, but their benefits don't outweight their problems. The best analogy I can think of is the airbags one. If airbags fired when you put the brake petal to the floor, few people would use them. But because they only fire in the event of a collisions, they are widely used and work very well. RSL's activate the reserve regardless if it is the right thing to do at the time or not. Derek

Apples and oranges. How could an RSL have helped me on those 14 mals? Your reserve would have been a great help if your main had mal'd. Derek

I don't think they deserve to die either. They do deserve 2-out, which isn't likely to kill them. The numbers don't exist. It would be nice if they did. But is saving more than it kills enough? What should the minumum help/hinder ratio be? Derek

I don't understand what you mean. Your reserve could have caused your reserve to malfunction the same way an RSL could have cause my reserve to malfunction? Derek

OK, give me the numbers. Derek

How could having an RSL helped me? How could the RSL have made things worse for me? Derek

An RSl-deployed reserve is not a guaranteed line twists/malfunctioning reserve, but it can. Why chance it if you don’t need it? Nope, no guarantees, but it is well known that deploying unstable is a primary cause of malfunctions. Why open unstable if you don’t have too? You can always still fire off the reserve unstable if you are out of altitude. I think people focus too much on stuff like RSL’s and not enough on proper gear selection, maintenance, training, etc. Derek