georger

Feel free to give your version of the Palmer presentation! Are you saying it didnt happen? Nobody was there? Have you even read the Palmer report?

Seriously, look how much of the bill is left. Rubber bands aren’t gonna hold packets together when 1) violence is the cause of the disintegration, and 2) that’s all that is left of the bills BEFORE it comes to rest. I believe the bills were already at rest when whatever process caused them to disintegrate occurred, otherwise I just can't see the packets staying so close together throughout all of this supposed rolling violence. You are correct. Any force like the Columbia would change the alignment of the contents of the bundles and the integrity of any rubber bands holding anything together! We are only talking about a few seriously stretched rubber bands. Neither paper straps or multiple bands will hold the bundles together - The alignment of the Ingram bills may be key to the process that delivered the money and rules out forces as great as the Columbia. That alignment is crucial. Tom examined the alignment - and he found slight off axis tilting of several bills - see attached. That tilting could have happened with the bundles partially locked in at the Ingram site. It is unfortunate the rolling idea ever got started. Several agents expressed ideas that never made it into the Palmer report. One of those ideas was that the Cooper money had ridden the Columbia still housed in the money bag until bundles were released nearby to Tena Bar, with the rest of the money going out to sea! There was a suggestion that the money was delivered to TBar in ice ... There has never been any shortage of ideas when it comes to the Cooper money. The fact the Ingram bundles stayed together at all may limit the forces involved and the options of delivery. Lastly: a sample of a rubber band from the Ingram bills does not exist, except perhaps in the Antiquities Section of the old FBI Lab in Washington DC where the Ingram bills were separated and examined for mineralogy etc. Reports Q58, 59 etc. If pieces of those old deteriorated bands could be found and examined that might yield some valuable information. Since these Alliance bank bands lost most of their elasticity (holding power) in no more than a year after given to Cooper then any rolling of bills by forces of water with bands holding bundles together, had to have occurred almost immediately after the hijacking, which puts a date of their arrival on Tena Bar as say December 1971 ? Im just tossing out the idea ... Tom has always maintained the Ingram find was deposited at TBar in late 71 or early 72!

Only FJ knows. Everyone and everything else is irrelevant. Good luck.

Your accusatory style is impossible to work with or even be around ... that is the consensus of many people and it is unnecessary. Sooner or later you attack and demean everyone! You ride this forum and The Cooper case like it was your personal goat! Get a life!

Claim whatever you want. You didnt even know Palmer never submitted a written report but gave an oral presentation, in which there was apparently dialogue between Palmer and several agents questioning his conclusions. As usual you know more than anyone else. You are impossible to have any dialogue with. You attack everyone and everything. From now on you can talk with yourself!

What agent? It is in the Palmer report, .................. Palmer never wrote a report, is what we were told. Palmer gave an oral presentation and agents asked a few questions. A secretary took notes and wrote it up. The relevant passages from the report are: *Based on the condition of the money through observation, Professor PALMER advised that the money was probably washed into the location where it was found by natural river flow and was probably placed at the location of Tena Bar during the last rise in the Columbia River in the past two or three months. (Nov 1979 – Jan 1980) Professor PALMER based this belief on three facts. *The first fact being that the money was rounded off on the corners, which would indicate a rolling motion and would indicate the flow of the river. *The second fact was that the money was found in the surface layer of the upper reworked beach sand. *The third fact was that the distribution of the money was in this surface layer only, and none was found to be in the post dredging sand. (contradicted by agents) That's all there is.

Sure. My assumption continues to be that the Cooper money was subject to the same forces and conditions available at Tena Bar and many sand bars of most rivers ... no special history or gymnastics required. It is unfortunate that some agent suggested 'money rolling-tumbling' across the abrassive? bottom of the river' as a determining factor in the Cooper money's history. So ... set up an experiment and demonstrate this for the rest of us that can't see through walls and leap tall buildings ... You may be correct. You may also be full of crap.

agree ... totally. One mystery to me is why nobody ever saw or found money there before with all of the hundreds of people that frequent that area. Maybe tides kept it constantly buried. Then a couple of kids have to be turning up sand - in just the right place - and money is exposed almost as a miracle. At length Tosaw rototills the whole beach (almost) and finds nothing! Not even more shards in the area of the Ingram find. Something does not add up. Maybe this is one more example of how random nature can be but if that is the case, something has to support that precise outcome. A date, a specific event which leaves only one specific outcome of only a few options for location and circumstances of placement, ... something has to set this all in motion leaving specific options for an outcome followed by a kid that opens Pandora's box within just the right time frame before everything is gone! I have always been suspicious of a possible connection between Caterpillar Island and money found a stone's throw away with a hydrological connection between these two sites! We discussed this briefly years ago. 99 I agree with everything you've brought up. Did Cooper know this area ? I wish Tom would give his 2cents!

how did the Cooper money decompose on Tena Bar The decomposition of the D.B. Cooper ransom money found on Tena Bar is a subject of speculation and forensic interest. The money discovered by Brian Ingram in 1980 consisted of three bundles of twenty-dollar bills, totaling $5,800, identified by their serial numbers as part of the original ransom . The bills were partially decomposed around the edges, but still had intact rubber bands, suggesting a degree of preservation despite exposure Several factors likely contributed to the decomposition of the money: Environmental Exposure: The money was found buried under a shallow layer of sand near the Columbia River. Over nearly nine years, the bills would have been subjected to cycles of moisture, temperature changes, and microbial activity, which can cause paper currency to break down, especially at the edges · Water and Sand Interaction: The location near the river means the money could have been periodically submerged or exposed to damp sand, leading to partial decomposition and the characteristic "rounded" or worn edges observed · Physical Abrasion: Some theories suggest the money may have been tumbled or abraded by natural forces, such as river currents or dredging activity, which could account for the rounded corners and partial decomposition The fact that the rubber bands remained intact is notable, as they might have protected the central portions of the bundles from full decomposition, while the exposed edges deteriorated more rapidly In summary, the Cooper money decomposed on Tena Bar primarily due to prolonged exposure to moist sand, river water, and environmental factors including bacteria and fungi, with the edges degrading while the central portions— perhaps shielded by the rubber bands—remained more intact PerplexityAI

how do things decompose on beaches of the columbia river On the beaches of the Columbia River, organic materials—such as dead plants, animals, algae, and driftwood—decompose through a combination of physical, chemical, and biological processes, much like in other coastal environments : Wave action, wind, and tidal forces physically break down organic matter into smaller particles, making them more accessible to decomposers · : Bacteria and fungi are the primary decomposers. They break down dead organic material, releasing nutrients back into the sand and water, which supports new plant and microbial growth · . Invertebrates like sand fleas, nematodes, and other small beach organisms may also contribute by consuming detritus. · : Sunlight (UV radiation) and saltwater exposure help degrade organic compounds, sometimes before microbes can fully process them · : The nutrients released during decomposition are recycled into the beach ecosystem, supporting the food web. This is especially important in prograding (expanding) beaches like those near the Columbia River, where sediment and organic matter are constantly being deposited and redistributed : The Columbia River is a major source of sediment for local beaches, which influences how organic matter is buried and decomposed · : Unlike many eroding coastlines, Columbia River beaches tend to build outward, so organic material may be buried quickly, slowing decomposition and sometimes preserving it in the sediment · : Seasonal storms, river flow, and tidal cycles can resuspend and redistribute organic matter, exposing it to air, water, and decomposers at different rates : When phytoplankton and other river-borne organic matter reach saltwater at the river mouth, they often die and decompose rapidly. This process can consume oxygen and contribute to low-oxygen (hypoxic) or dead zones in nearshore waters · : The dynamic nature of the Columbia River mouth—with shifting sands, strong currents, and frequent storms—means decomposition rates and pathways can vary widely across the beach and over time In summary, decomposition on Columbia River beaches is driven by a mix of wave and wind action, microbial activity, and chemical degradation. The unique sediment dynamics and high organic input from the river influence both the speed and pathways of decomposition in this environment. PerplexityAI

Dont be hard on him. Personally I let this get away from me. It never occurred to me that anyone would take the end-over-end theory seriously. Tom's bacteria work just never got the attention it deserved and that falls on me and others. This too will pass. My son says it was 122 near you last week! Good grief!

https://citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html It isnt important what you think. It is important what other people have access to and think. ...

So yours is a social game applying social pressure? With you in charge of course ...

Prove it! Dont be upset. I just took it for granted everyone knew the facts! The facts have been here for years. You see we had this guy named Tom Kaye who did some research way back. I guess some people just didnt read it and connect the dots. Each to his own! Good luck with your tumbling bills theory. Take a course on how things decompose on beaches? And you are correct. I still dont buy your packaging theory. The issue is the same as with this: no real evidence for it in the face of real counter evidence. This is not politics. This is science.

Nonsense. rolling/tumbling along the River bottom and for some distance may be fiction. An idea in your head! There is literally nothing to prove the money was ever IN the Columbia or traveled down the Columbia to Tena Bar! Literally nothing to prove that - except for your insistence it happened. Two facts are true and indisputable. 1. the money was in a bank bag, and next thing 2. the money is on Tena Bar subject to all of the forces and elements which prevail on a sand bar of the Columbia, including bacteria! Look at your photo for Christ's sake! This bill is riddled with bacterial invasions. The whole bill's shape is the result of bacterial action ! Travel the perimeter of this bill with an electron microscope and tell me you dont see the signs of bacterial invasion. I am doing science. FJ is dreaming and making things up. When Palmer said 'beach sands are sterile' in response to 'why is the money so well preserved ...', that was the dumbest thing anyone could have said! Yes, beach sand is sterile compared to a garbage dump, but beach sands are still organic. All environments are organic! Even empty space. The fact is Palmer didnt know how to respond to the Agent's question so he just uttered nonsense. Wake up guys! The morphology of the money is due to organic shaping in the sand at Tena Bar, and there is other obvious damage to the money that has yet to be explained. To claim the shape of the bills is due to forces of motion and travel in the Columbia, is tantamount to claiming the bills acquired there shape before even being on Tena Bar, or were never on Tena Bar! The critical question for me is: how long was this money stable sitting in the sand on Tena Bar for organic changes to occur? How long did it take for the morphology we see to happen? A year? Five years? ..... that is a timeline which in addition to the diatoms helps date the Ingram money on Tena Bar. This is just basic forensics. And where in this history of the Cooper money can the Cooper rubber bands have the opportunity to enter the melt transition phase if they did? It could have been on Tena Bar early in the money's history which turns the clock back even further. Either identify and follow the leads that science provides, and stop wasting people's time, or dont. This information about the Cooper money has been available for years! FJ where have you been? Microscopy of the edges of the bills will settle ANY questions about what shaped them! This is forensics 101! There will be a test on Monday !

As a refresher, here is one of Tom's early photos documenting bacterial activity on one of the bills - in response to the issue at the time: what made the holes in the bills.

Various people have suggested money rolling on the bottom and various other gymnastics as an explanation for the shapes of the bills. It seems like a common sense deduction. The socalled 'rounding' phenomenon observed in Nature Everyone just assumed the Ingram bills had to travel through water to get to Tena Bar. That is until forensic people more experienced with these matters offered a simpler more accurate explanation which Tom Kaye confirmed. All of this was reported years ago! The issue at the time was "holes in the money". Tom photographed bacteria eating holes in the Ingram bills. Tom found examples of bacterial invasion on several bills. Research then identified a specific bacterium common in the sands along the Columbia in the area of Tena Bar which favors cellulose in its diet. Another party suggested the wholesale loss of material on the edges and ends of the bills was probably due to the same bacterial process. From the viewpoint of these bacteria, a static target works best. Populations of bacteria typically work around the edges of a target. The more stable and sedentary the host target, the larger the population of feeding bacteria will be. Except, recall that Palmer told everyone that Columbia River sand was generally "sterile". Sterile that is except for a few well recognised bacteria! We also asked about the feeding rate of these bacteria. How long before the Ingram money would have been consumed with nothing left for anyone to find? ........ those issues were never fleshed out. The amount of material removed from the Ingram bills given the feeding rate of the bacteria in play, might offer a clue as to how long the Ingram bills could have been in situ at Tena Bar? Tumbling along the bottom was never a viable explanation for the shapes of the Ingram bills. Likewise, the bacterial process that worked on the Ingram bills may offer an estimate about when the bills arrived on TBar...

Instruct us how wet limp paper money bound with bands rolls or tumbles end over end like a stiff wet noodle ??? across some sand bottom of something? That must be a trick! Oh! Maybe Cooper saw Ingram spray painting below and yelled: HEY! THERE. HAVE A FEW. A gift from heaven, and Ingram knew what to do next. First he rolled money over the sandy bottom for 9 years like pizza dough to get it just right for finding and announcing. The Ingrams are very religious people. They have faith in the impossible.....

Let's see them. BTW notice the smooth rounded ends of the stacked bills. Tumbling end over end is not compatible with that. Some other process is at work. A process that removes corners first.. and precisely when did your tumbling happen that resulted in rounding ends vs wearing off all ends squarely? These bills are a classic example of rounding by erosion. Human beings have noted for millennia that hydraulic forces round things and remove corners first. Im not going to waste any more time trying to convince diehards. Each to his own because the time is long gone when the Cooper money might have provided some insight into the Cooper case. I think Deputy Jones was right. Cooper made his way back to the Portland area and either willingly or unwilling was relieved of his money. And a piece of it washed down to Tena Bar and was found ... by a miracle. The rest of the money washed away.

Things get rounded in nature ...

Exactly. Ships pass by all the time creating waves that break on the shoreline moving debris around. The direction of movement/flow is south to north, including during high tide. The whole upper active layer of the beach is creeping north. Presumably, depending on how the Ingram bills were deposited, the bundles were once on the surface then covered over - without being noticed! How could that happen with so many people always on that beach unless it happened quickly? The Fazios thought the money was brought up with the tide or because of the tide, then covered over in the same process ... the Fazios have always pointed out that the bills were found 'on the high tide line'. Where is the rest of the money? Why wasnt all of the money found on TBar?

Why dont you take this up with Tom Kaye ? Try fitting the Ingram parts back together ... what do you see ?

a tumbling end over end, This is simple stuff.. I wasnt there to see it.

Yes. The Ingrams could have damaged their find and probably did to some extent. However Pat said they were as careful as possible whatever that means. We just dont know. The overall condition of the bills looks good and well preserved. There is damage to some of the groups that is clearly natural vs human. This is why I URGED the FBI to send the money to the Treasury Forensic Lab for an EXPERT OPINION! Apparently the FBI Agents decided they saw no need for that ... who knows. The Treasury Forensic Lab has experts who have dealt with found money for generations. They have a vast data base. To have turned down their expertise was like asking a butcher to diagnose your heart problem and do your surgery, literally! So many claims and opinions have been stated about the dredge I cant even comment about that ... which may be lucky for me! That issue may have been destroyed beyond recovery or belief, by competing claims and competing interests so passionate and certain that ...... I cant even remember it all!

Finding Cooper does not depend on the money at Tena Bar be explained.