snowmman

didnt see any loafers. But several 'boots' appear to be steel belted on the sides, jumping boots? Other than that I saw nothing unusual. Did Snow see Yeshua in the shoes? georger: What was your expectation before the pics on what something to jump with, would look like, if the pants legs covered the ankle? did you have any idea what people jumped with in the '60s?

Jerry suggested out of the blue "But It is a better guess that he new someone that worked at Boing/or in the aircraft Industry or new some one that worked with aircraft" What makes anyone think Cooper worked with aircraft? I see nothing that suggests that??? can you explain??? (edit) With respect to dress, I think Cooper was perfect. If the primary goal was to disguise so as to not get caught. There's nothing that says injury or death was highly likely with his outfit, if he jumped reasonably close to Portland. (edit) Plus: this aircraft worker theory has been around for ages... Why am I supposed to think the FBI has played out the military angle, but not played out the aviation worker angle? It doesn't make sense. It's all circular arguments about the FBI and their theories and behaviors.

Jerry said "The FBI did question many Airbourne qualified personell to include SF,Seals ,Special opp's and many other's . The research you and other's are doing is great. But please bare in mind all this has been done in the past." Ah okay. So you have information that Duncan, Waugh and Braden were questioned by the FBI? Where did you get that info? When were they interviewed? (edit) Now I'm wondering why Sluggo lied to us about Braden being questioned???

Very cool 377! I know you had talked about this thing you had in mind for a while, and it's cool to see you start to plan it and execute it. Especially on a thread where we're all full of B.S. most of the time! So did you use any radios like you were talking about? Somehow, I think 377 is going to turn into one of those crazy guys with a bunch of balloons tied to a lawn chair, and a bb gun...just another variant :) on the shoes: I was just thinking they showed how a quick glance, not knowing what you're looking it, with the pants over the shoes, could be misleading for saying "would you jump with these shoes?". Note that some were thinner soles.

??? I don't see what you mean georger. What do you think it means about the FBI? That they interviewed some enlisted military that were airborne qualified? Rex even said he didn't take HALO training. And his age was wrong. I'm not sure what you mean about the FBI georger. I take it as evidence that they weren't on the job??? What's your perception? I still have no idea why they picked Rex out of a LOT of military possibles. I wonder how many military they talked to???? Or did someone just drop a dime on Rex because they knew his SOG background? (edit) I wonder what would have happened, if the FBI consulted the right experts for the age group, like Waugh, Braden and Duncan, in 1971, rather than Cossey. It made no sense to talk to young sport jumpers in 1971, did it? (edit) How come no one commented on the right-hand pull mods on the Golden Knights rigs I posted?? Or the shoes?

thanks Bruce. Did you confirm Rex's age that I reported? If Rex was selected based on a profile, then they were profiling based on under 40? It sounds like they didn't have records of military already discharged. Since Rex was still military, maybe he popped out..i.e. maybe they were just checking active military. I guess it doesn't matter. Ckret has said that the events of Flight 305 showed Cooper didn't have any experience. Although I'm still not clear on whether that allows loadmasters now. Are we back to Cooper being an engineer? What's the current profile anyhow? Journalist? I know a guy named Bruce who has always been a bit too interested in the case. In fact he snuck into a documentary on Cooper. (edit) did anyone else pick up on the "manicured fingers" description of Braden by Duncan? Kind of odd for a truck driver, if that's what he was. Who the hell was Braden anyhow? Man it'd be great if Bruce could find Wife version 2.

Bruce says "Galen says that Florence sat next to Danny for extensive periods of time whle they circled Sea-Tac, and that it wasn't just Tina. Galen says Florence really studied Cooper's eyes, and she adamantly states that they were a deep, dark, penetrating brown." Thanks for checking that out Bruce. I guess it wasn't Ted then. I guess I'm confused about who was sitting next to who, and when, and when Cooper wore sunglasses. I forget what Ckret said. I guess the strongest evidence is going to be if someone claims to be Cooper and has brown eyes. Hmm..there's really no way we can "find" Cooper. It's not possible. Regardless of anything Galen does, regardless of how much he spends, he can't prove anything either. I wonder who's going to give Galen money? The cop is writing a book too, so that will cut into Galen's profits. (edit) bruce says "While Galen won't share any of his findings until he makes a ton o' money on his book deal and speaking tour, I have every confidence that we will receive this vital pool of information eventually." well if there's a book, it's just a matter of buying the book? (edit) I searched for what Ckret said about brown eyes: he said "He had brown eyes (Schaffner saw his eyes before he put on the glasses, he looked directly at her several times urging her to read the note) " So I don't know about this story about Schaffner sitting next to Cooper as they circled Seattle, and Cooper had the glasses off. I'm not going to look back in the posts.

I was thinking that the white collar cloth is very flat against his neck (the shirt is too tight in the neck)...but it seems to show that there might not be tie cloth under the collar around his neck? it lies flat? not sure.

Looking thru that list I wasn't aware of any US on HALO in Thailand post 1971 I thought there were two ARVN only HALO jumps post 1971. But this says an American died on a HALO operation in Thailand in 1972 1972 09 16 E-9 CSM Carlos E. Leal, Jr. 00Z5S DNH, HALO accident Thailand; 46th SF Co, near Lopburi, HALO accident Carlos Leal is listed in this book also http://books.google.com/books?ei=gs2GSvj-C4TSsQOSzKyWBw&ct=result&id=Bgv6nas1X4oC&dq=%22Carlos+Leal%22+thailand&ots=RR-_quR54T&q=carlos+leal#v=snippet&q=carlos%20leal&f=false He was Command Sergeant Major of the 46th Special Forces Company (Airborne) It doesn't mention how he died there, but talks about the Thailand operation. I wonder if that had been kept secret. (edit) another big SF KIA history search is at http://www.specialforcesroh.com/browse.php?mode=search not just Vietnam, there. Leal is there http://www.specialforcesroh.com/browse.php?mode=viewiroll&rollid=9542

(edit) Note in the above post, when the guy is saying he heard "most" teams inserted were killed or captured, he's talking about indigeneous inserts, early on ('64-'65)...probably Leaping Lena operations.. In "The Blood Road", there were descriptions of Leaping Lena and what happened for some teams. I'm not sure the guy's info above is accurate, but who knows.. now to SF KIA: This guy has spent a lot of hours gathering info on all Special Forces KIA in Vietnam Table with details at http://www.sfahq.com/reg/reg_sfqual.htm home page is http://www.sfahq.com Sobering reading the list. You can see consecutive cases where teams were lost. And then there's the cases of just accidents or weird things.

this is an amazing find here: at http://www.sfahq.com/reg/comments.htm It's from William L. Kendall. His email address is at that site, from 2005. Bruce: maybe Kendall would remember Braden. His email address is there so you can contact him??? William Horner was my replacement in MACVSOG at what was called "House 10 or Villa 10" which was located just outside the Airbase in Saigon. His primary job was that of packing the chutes that were used for the indig that were being inserted and also rigging all of the buddles for those teams. In addition to that he was to help with the jump training at Camp Long Thanh. Bill was working with some of the indig with their training at the camp when he was killed. He was firing the 60mm mortor at the time. The mortor round exploded just as it left the tube killing him instantly. I was notified of this since I had spent a year from 64-65 doing the same job. "I can not say that is exactly what happened" but it does appear to be true according to other sourses. I had taken over the job of working with parachute packing, bundle rigging and training of the indig at Camp Long Thanh from CSD. COL Clyde Russell was our first SOG Commander, MAJ Hanz Manz was the logistical officer, MSG Linwood E. Pate was the logistic NCOIC, SSG James McGlon was the Intel and OP Sgt at SOG Headquarters on Pasture street in Saigon. I could give you the names of most of the teams that were inserted during 64-65 and according to other sourses most of them were either killed or captured as soon as the hit the ground. You probably already know most of this anyway. Have a good day. I will get my eyes checked again. Bill Kendall William L Kendall Jefferson, IA USA - Monday, May 23, 2005 at 20:37:43 (PDT)

Looking at Horners on the US Wall really sobering because they show when the guy's tour stated in vietnam, and when he died. Many in just a couple months. Here's a Horner that was in the military for 12 years. He died just 2 months after he got to Vietnam. William Horner. Was a MACV advisor. http://thewall-usa.com/info.asp?recid=24161 Here's more data on Horner from a MACV-SOG MIA/KIA page http://www.macvsog.org/1965.htm 10 Jul 65; William Horner, SSGT E-6, USASF, MACVSOG, Ops 34, Agent Drop-KIA year is good: 1965 (before 1966) older, so better match for Braden?? Ops-34 mean that Braden would have known about it.. OP-34 from http://www.vietnamgear.com/dictionary/sog.aspx OP-34: Airborne Studies Division Based at Long Thanh, OP-34 supervised the training of Vietnamese agents before inserting them into North Vietnam to conduct intelligence and sabotage activities. (edit) Braden's article said Horner died at "Long Than" so matches? Maybe Braden didn't want to admit he stole a US soldiers's passport..in a US magazine????

Great webpage here from the US National Archives http://www.archives.gov/research/vietnam-war/casualty-lists/xx-by-town.html doesn't have the detail of the canadian wall entries, but it's a single table with grade, service, home town, date of death, place of death, date of birth includes other countries besides canada. surprising. let's see, it would have to be before 1966 that the guy got KIA? CAMPBELL RANDALL KENNETH LCPL MARINES CANADA 25APR65 S.VIETNAM 18SEP44 HOSTILE, KILLED AUVE, DANIEL LOUIS PAUL PFC MARINES CANADA 21APR66 S.VIETNAM 15OCT47 NON-HOS. DIED-OTHER SUTHONS, MELVIN HAROLD PFC MARINES CANADA 18JUN65 S.VIETNAM 03FEB44 HOSTILE, KILLED STALINSKI, STEFAN ZBIGNIEW PFC MARINES CANADA 08JUL65 S.VIETNAM 29MAY45 NON-HOS. DIED-OTHER WELSH, RUTHERFORD J WO ARMY CANADA 27JUL66 S.VIETNAM 09JUN42 NON-HOS. DIED-MISS. Or maybe this guy? age is good (born 1928) WILLIAMS, THOMAS MURRAY SGT ARMY CANADA 18JUL66 S.VIETNAM 27APR28 NON-HOS. DIED-ILL,INJ

I didn't realize, but apparently about 30,000-40,000 Canadians served with US Forces in Vietnam, from 1959 to 1975. good wiki here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War Canadians in the U.S. military In counter-current to the movement American draft-dodgers and deserters to Canada, about 30,000 Canadians volunteered to fight in southeast Asia.[41] Among the volunteers were fifty Mohawks from the Kahnawake reservation near Montreal.[42] One-hundred-and-ten Canadians died in Vietnam, and seven remain listed as Missing in Action. Canadian Peter C. Lemon was awarded the U.S. Medal of Honor for his valour in the conflict. (This cross-border enlistment was not unprecedented: In both the First and the Second World War, tens of thousands of Americans had joined the Canadian forces whilst their homeland was still neutral.)[citation needed] In Windsor, Ontario, there is a privately funded monument to the Canadians killed in the Vietnam War.[43] In Melocheville, Quebec, there is a monument site funded by the Association Québécoise des Vétérans du Vietnam.[44] However, many Canadian veterans returned to a society that was strongly anti-war. Unlike in the United States, there were no veterans organizations nor any help from the government. Many of them moved permanently to the United States. There has been ongoing pressure from Canadian Vietnam veterans to have their comrades' deaths formally acknowledged by the government, especially in times of remembrance such as Remembrance Day.

Did Braden actually get some other passport/name? I can't find Horner. Maybe Braden misremembered something about Horner (he said he was from Windsor, Ontario, and was Canadian) maybe he was lying, to protect the passport (in case of future use??))

Found Canada's equivalent to the US's "Wall" for Vietnam KIA. Guess where it is: Windsor, Ontario, birthplace of Horner. Name list here http://www.glanmore.org/cdncas/memorialair.html It's a list of Canadians serving in US Forces. (canada didn't send troops) But Horner isn't listed ????? The North Wall Canadian Vietnam Veterans' Memorial located in Windsor, Ontario In Remembrance of Canadians who Made the Ultimate Sacrifice while serving In United States Forces during the Vietnam War from another site "The significance of the Canadian Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Windsor, Ontario, Canada, is that a small group in Michigan U.S.A. called M.A.C.V. (Michigan Association of Concerned Veterans), felt that their Canadian brothers and sisters, who gave their lives for the lives of others deserved to be recognized and accounted for, at home in Canada. This small group of Veterans proceeded to make this dream a reality, They fought through the many hardships that comes with caring, they designed, built, and donated the memorial to be placed on Canadian soil, making this Memorial very special to the families of those who gave their lives for the freedom of others."

Did Braden and Duane assassinate JFK? This would be a good claim, because I could start analyzing stills from that day in Dallas. I just found a good site with a lot of photos I hadn't seen before. Good for 1000 posts more or so?

Sluggo: are you clear on the name being Horner, not Homer. You said were going to ask the FBI about Homer. Did you see my post with the correct name? I've not been able to find names of Canadian KIA in vietnam. Does anyone know where they keep them? The Canada numbers are smaller. I'm not sure they have online "wall" memorials like U.S.? Joseph Edward Horner Windsor, Ontario

I am aware of what you posted. We have a different interpretation. Everyone got what they wanted/needed in the end? I don't know if Braden got what he wanted. He wanted to stay in the Congo, but thought he was blacklisted. It'd be really interesting to know Braden's life from 66 to 72 The article was printed in '67, so the experience in '66 was still raw and fresh in his mind. How did he feel about it 4 years later?? Was he hooked up with the woman and 3 kids when he wrote the article? (edit) How long did Duncan stay in touch with Braden after the article??? Duncan continued (and still does) speak out anti-war (see the Sir! No Sir! documentary link I posted..recent Duncan was in it if I remember correctly...)

Georger theorized "Braden's truck driving is an interlude from his main occupation, obviously." So you think Braden got hooked up in the mercenary or CIA business again after he returned to US? I've not found anything that would suggest that, although I don't have anything that says where he got his money, only a weak statement that he was a truck driver. You're saying it's likely Braden killed again? Waugh I don't think ever killed again. He had some CIA jobs (green badge and blue badge), but to be honest, I think Waugh's CIA work was kind of boring? (edit) Waugh implies in his interviews that he's moving to fiction because he can't deal with the CIA reviews that limit what he can write...but I'm half thinking it's really because he might not have many great stories post-vietnam? Can you expand georger? I really don't get your profile...seems like you're stretching for a possible Braden life stateside, that has no basis in typical experience for someone like Braden? How did you come up with that profile? Are you comparing him to a known person?

Thanks Jerry for that post. I know you usually aren't one to share a lot, but thanks, that was a good post. Helps to learn.

Georger said "They brought Braden back in but only after serious effort. He had needed skills. " No f*ing way. I'm not sure you read stuff posted Georger. Braden thought he had skills. The CIA thought he only had information, that they didn't want him to have. They didn't make him an offer to use his skills. They made him sign something promising not to reveal info. He pretty much revealed info anyhow. He wanted money/job that matched his skills. He bitched that no one offered...in fact complained he was black listed by CIA, which gave him no opportunities...

georger said "He would merge with others for a common cause only so long as it benefited himself and the minute it doesnt for any extended period of time, he is AWOL in a serious way. Waugh would classify this as a weakness, from a leadership point of view. " I don't know Waugh, but I think you have Waugh wrong. Waugh is very mission focused. Waugh would say "Whatever makes the mission succeed, is by definition, correct". If there are secondary wins, like everyone coming back alive, then Waugh would back that. You're familar with how many people died (montagnards) on one of Waugh's missions were they infiltrated an NVA camp? A lot.

How do you reconcile that view then with Braden just returning to the US and being a truck driver? You're saying he's too dramatic to hijack...i.e. you say "He wouldnt waste time on such a petty stunt" Yet you're willing to accept that his life post vietnam was just drinking, wife-beating, and truck driving? (edit) Geoger: I'm trying to understand your profiles, but they don't seem to include all available information. You see what I mean? (edit) after all of Braden's jumping...do you think Braden ever jumped again after he returned to the U.S? If not, how do you reconcile that with your profile of him? (edit) It's interesting to muse if Braden's family situation mirrored McCoy's closely. Young kids + bitch wife.