snowmman

warning: "magic-bullet-grassy-knoll" level whuffo. but these issues repeatedly come up so need stated as speculation. theory: someone buried/dispersed the money on the surface of the Columbia beach, sometime after the '71 event, with knowledge of Agent H.'s impending retirement, so discovery would trigger a closure scenario for FBI (drowning in Columbia or ???) that might deter a future agent from reinvestigating the case too closely. possible fact [unconfirmed]: the bundle placement/alignment/sticking?? may be unlikely to be purely drift related .. and no bag/rope remnants were found that might maintain any such alignment. 100% rot/drift away of those items unlikely if they were there for alignment? dunno... Supposedly bundles were removed to Ingrams kitchen? before FBI saw, so any alignment issues would be based solely on Ingram testimony? fact: 2/12/80 article from N.Y. Times attached reporting Agent H. forced retirement (age) in 17 days. Discovery of money 2 days before (2/10/80) related speculation: if human burial did occur triggered by impending retirement, the knowledge could have been transferred inadvertently, on purpose, or Agent H. could have been involved in burial. related theories: it has been speculated there would be no reason for the money to be "buried-to-be-found" at that time, since there was no need to cover an alive Cooper's tracks. But the FBI case was still open. An open case is bad, future risk (look at the future risk DNA profiling created for people with open cases) ..So "attempt to close to prevent young tiger like Ckret" in the future is reasonable. If so, said attempt failed. related theories: -burial post '71 due to '74 dredge clay layer -random drift after '74 dredge clay layer, from random '71 deposit. -just random coincidence in timing -rubber bands and their rot behavior -dredging dispersal -money bag drift/rot dispersal -just plain random dispersal -adhesion properties of wet dollar bills and relationship to known decomposition patterns of recovered bills.

I sent good old Sluggo a PM that was my virtual pat on the back. So assume sensitivity displayed, and now a practical thought. It got me wondering. Now there's nothing for you guys to be worried about with me, but I was wondering how many folks out there may have a flickering self-identify with this case...a "there but for xxx go I" and can actually see how it can happen. Although I've not thought of it for some time. I hung out when I was young,basically my best/only friend, John.. from 11 to 13. And always felt I abandoned him when he got too crazy. I was supposed to be the one that always kept us out of trouble, not caught by the cops. And was successful. He died eventually with cops knocking at the door, and him sticking the gun in his mouth. I sometimes think of that "two possible paths..." and how close one can be to mental disaster.

theory: Cooper didn't really care if he lived or died. fact: Reading some 1971 newspaper articles from the Seattle area, they report an increase in suicide rates because of the local economic depression from Boeing layoffs. Other theories speculate on WA-area residence, so Seattle-specific data might apply. fact: [I don't have a reference] I think suicide rates tend to peak around holidays. People don't like being alone and start stewing about their situation. Maybe Cooper had recently lost a partner, maybe on top of unemployment. In terms of "why Thanksgiving eve", suicide wasn't listed before. [edit] strong contrary fact: Cooper seemed to attempt to limit evidence (notes). Didn't leave much. Suicide run probably wouldn't be thinking that clearly? There is lack of planning, but not enough lack of planning? Alias use etc. suggests strong assumption of successful outcome. related issue: comparing fear control/display to normal sport jumping fear issues, might be invalid, since sport jumper optionally can stop at last moment before exit. Cooper was committed once the plan started rolling, since the only other option was likely jail time. i.e. he pulled the rip once he passed the note. There were some other suicide-hijackings of mental cases in 1971. Those seemed more random? profile doesn't fit? Would suicide run be more likely to be copycat of prior, rather than "first to do the new thing" related speculation: there are various theories that the event lacked high level planning. Could be correlated. also maybe correlated to absolute lack of fear at the jump exit.

I have a tie bar speculation that without maturity will invite wasted energy. It would be very nice to have the older folk respond to see if there are readers that wore ties and tie bars in the late '60s and early '70s and have information on what the men they typically hung with would wear and what they would not wear. Even to the extent of what presents from girlfriends or wives might look like. This could be within an aviation subgroup, or men at large. If there are no readers that might be able to provide firsthand info in response to my thought. I won't post. I'll wait till tomorrow. For instance, I wore tie clips in the late 60's and 70's only cause I was a kid going to a catholic school. I remember I got all my clips stolen from my dad's drawer, and have a memory from that of typical styles, for East Coast telephone engineering/system folk.

theory: Lake Merwin was the targeted drop zone. theory: Previously stashed float plane was exit strategy facts: [you can pick. maybe none. I use "more probability than other theories" but that's me] [edit] weak "supporting or non-denying facts" -all flight path info-crunching points to correct FBI drop zone calcs for Lake Merwin area? -other info deductions suggest Cooper was pilot? -float plane would be easier to have no traces/logs (compared to airfields..don't know if any in area. people might comment) -aft stair placard may have launched right before jump and find location is consistent with theory? (please confirm/deny) -lake large enough for visual identification thru cloud cover prior to jump at 10k ft. -lake actually very large. Lots of landing/takeoff options with float plane. -lake crosses the V23 path, and as been pointed out, a pilot familar with the area could be reasonably sure that the known verbal commands would result in a Lake Merwin crossing. Key is the possible visual recognition at night. (and no lights?) -the recently found chute could be the training chute, and ckret could be withholding info for some reason. Only questioning, with no negative slight to ckret, because of 1) inconsistent reality on 1946 date and news reports 2) unanswered questions we've asked about knife/cutting implement, and 3) unanswered question on whether money bundles (two) may have been found stacked/stuck/aligned together, implying human burial rather than float/dredge dispersal. (getting direct answers here will remove this) -Shoes/clothes/detection/walking/food/water on travel to nearest hub of humanity was not an issue then. Easy to make all gear (chute, etc) disappear forever. On foot you probably wouldn't carry chute. so why not discovered? Automobile could work, but harder to avoid comment on? Also: reason for parked float plane may have been lied about. Pilots given higher trust/social status, possibly incorrectly. -freezing due to exposure in woods overnite not an issue. -cars limited to roads. more detection possibilities? plane could have been stashed so not visible, or at least people don't approach it and investigate (too far out on water) -all out search was delayed somewhat because of weather/whatever. So float plane could have taken off that evening or even next morning. -noise of float plane by witnesses could have been mistaken for the original 727 noise. Plane noise was reported in the area? (attributed to chase planes etc?)

If it was an MST3K riff, at this point the bots and Joel would all yell "ACTING!" (cause it's obvious the character is acting how he thinks a people expect a bank robber to talk).

I want to thank everyone for the hospitality, and apologize for my behavior. I am just an interloper. I have admiration for your strong community, sense of history, and camaraderie. I think I identified a little with it, because of experiences with other similar communities. In any case, I want this to be last post, and leave you with the thought, that if we met under different circumstances, you all might think differently of me (although possibly not! :) Good luck with the main goal of enjoying this thing you've got going. thanks, -snow

Hi quade. I don't know if you've ever been part of a team trying to figure out something very difficult. The most important thing is to generate data. I know ckret says data is static. It's always possible to filter. But unless you have data, you have nothing to filter. The worst is when people self-filter. Actually the more I learn from ckret about how the hunters think, the more I visualize committing the perfect crime, but that's off-topic. Random data can also trigger other mental paths in the team. I flagged it as random. So don't come down on me. There's a consistent thread of "If you don't think linearly, you obviously are stupid". I could hammer down even heavier, but I'm trying to stay useful.

I just listened to a Tosaw radio interview, and a comment about Cooper supposedly reading magazines. Is that true? It's interesting then to say that at some point in the moment of the big event, that's what he did (either to relax himself or to try to act "normal"). It's also interesting that if it's true, people attach more importance to cigarettes and bourbon than this. (like I said before, people "see" based on their biases) I find it interesting because I always read the mags no matter how boring or how many times I've read the airline monthly that month. How many magazines did he thumb thru? At what point in the event did he do that? I find it really interesting when we muse about his possible profile. I like that he might be a reader. I like to picture him reading stuff on the aft stairs. Reading stuff on the chutes. A human sponge.

I have two quick posts. first there was comments from others about revenge theories. although unlikely, there was a major crash earlier that year of a Boeing 727. all aboard killed. It was Alaska Air though. I've landed in commercial jets in Yakutat and Juneau (small planes too..funny it's easy to walk on the runway at Yakutat and people get all upset cause it's a commercial jet runway.) details are here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_1866 final destination was Seattle, so Seattle area passengers possible Cordova, Yakutat, Juneau, Sitka stopovers Seattle-Tacoma International Airport final The NTSB report apparently faults the pilots? interesting reading just as historical curiosity http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/o_n_o/docs/AVIATION/3883.PDF [Sep 4, 1971] On Sept. 4, 1971, a Boeing 727-100 hit a mountain slope about 28 miles from Juneau, Alaska, killing seven crew members and 104 passengers from that news article on 9/4/1971 An Alaska Airlines jet carrying 83 passengers and five crew members plunged into chilly waters north of here late this afternoon, leaving behind what rescue officials described as a large debris field. Eight bodies were recovered but there was no sign of survivors floating on the six-foot swells of sea turned greasy with jet fuel. A massive search-and-rescue operation continued late tonight in the ocean channel known as "Windy Lane," for its high winds and fickle weather. The pilots of the jet, en route to Seattle, with a stopover in San Francisco, had reported mechanical difficulties and were being diverted to Los Angeles International Airport.

Dum.. I thought this post of yours was amazing, and wondered if it was true, and why no one mentioned it before if so. Apparently Poynter says something similar at 4.2.1 on page 20 (scroll down on the left) http://books.google.com/books?id=BKTuTXrXQu0C&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=%22Limited+to+Use+in+Airplane+Under+150+MPH%22&source=web&ots=n_moyn5R4q&sig=skxz5NVO5C7YMal3myfi-4vtIYo&hl=en Poynter says it would be on the outside. Was the 2nd unused rig a low speed chute like dum is implying? It's interesting to think how Cooper might be accumulating knowledge as he goes along...talking to the pilots, getting feedback based on his requests...he may be soaking things up like a sponge based on what people are saying...what he reads (like how to operate the aft stairs)

there's been the long debate about shoes etc. And why he would not have been noticed in his suit. I'll just throw this out as a theory then. Note it's good to state because it overrides a theory that he jumped with a change of clothes. And how he escaped detection on the ground. I'm picturing him walking around for a bit before he acquires ground transportation (private or public) The time period for acquiring the new clothes would be unknown. I was wondering about the idea of having others provide you the tools for your crime is really smart. i.e. acquiring stuff on the fly as opposed to bringing it with you. Then there's no evidence left about how you acquired the tools (parachutes). It's kind of like doing a bank robbery with hostages, and demanding they send in the gear for you to cut the vault and also make your getaway. I guess that is common... when people demand transportation away from the hostage scene. I guess that's exactly what cooper did. demand transportation from the hostage scene. His case worked.

remember my post about guessing my age Orange1? You're the first to be absolutely wrong. I'm not disagreeing with anything you say. I'm looking for the details of what caused the 45-50 estimate. Something did, not just a "feeling". I'd like to know whether it was mostly the balding, mostly the speech or what? I can't tell from what Ckret says so far, which is kind of content-free..it's mostly "just trust me I read the reports" *** er yes older folk do but generally not the 45-50 age group! Ditto for the bushy eyebrows comment. How many people in this age group do you actually know??? ***

thanks. This is much better. The two stews were like 22,23 and women. question: The other two individuals, were they women? and what were their ages. I'm going to stereotype, but women sometimes create perceptions based on the way a person interacts with them. If I act like people expect a father would act, then that affects their perception of age etc. question: was the word balding used in the verbal description, or receding hair line or did they just interact with an artist who drew the hair line that way question: are we definitely sure the hair was black with no gray hairs. What about the eyebrows? any grey? bushy? older folks have bushier eyebrows question: shaving. Was he clean shaven? Did he look like he had shaved that day? did he have any whiskers, stubble. question: Did he have long hairs on his ears or in his nostrils? (older folk do) [edit] question: teeth: did anyone mention his teeth? stained, broken, gaps, fillings? Did his teeth show when he talked? [edit] question: fingernails? anyone notice?

theory: Cooper was a rational actor. I've digested what people are saying about this thread and will constrain myself in the future. Mainly I wanted to humanize Cooper. When he's found and Ckret's knocking at the door with cuffs, it's just going to be a sad little story. There's not going to be the big bad guy ending. Remember, that from Cooper's perspective, every little thing he did was rational. He may have been limited in his thinking for various reasons, but to him it made sense. He held it together for a number of hours on the tarmac. He was not a lunatic. People here have lost their cool just based on reading words, in comparison. Ckret pulled his gun even (found a reason to mention shooting 100s). People respond to stress in different ways. You can see that very dramatically in this thread. Ckret would have carried a gun if he did the hijack. I think to find Cooper, you first have to be willing to say Cooper was rational. It's distasteful, but even a little compassion for why he decided to do the various things he did. I think it opens up one's thinking. 'nuff said. I'll be quieter.

It's the main thing that doesn't fit what you might expect. and it's subjective evidence. All other evidence we have, we allow for fuzz. Jump zone, money, rubber bands etc. I don't know why Age is not allowed to have fuzz. Explain it to me. What the facts that support Age? All black hair, no grey hair, and right away I'm thinking hm.. Tell me he's balding and I say hmm again...people likely to mispredict. So why should I believe there is no fuzz? Just straighten me out.

someone says someone is 40-50. I ask why, why do you think that (in this case) Ckret: what are the supporting facts? As an example of inaccuracte deductions of age, there was something in prior posts talking about the predicted age of the posters here. I am older than Ckret, who is what 40, 41? Am I lying or not? You're going to make a deduction based on the pattern and content of my posts. I'm actually curious whether people can tell. And how come Ckret picks and chooses for what he replies to? was there any answer to my post on cutting implement? or any answer to the knapsack phrase. I don't get it, actually.

I'm not sure if you were just yelling at me or having a conversation...but I'm sure Duane was a perfectly nice guy. But anyone who was in six prisons from 1945 to 1968 is unlikely to have done the hijack without a gun. It's quite a thing thinking you can control a crowd of random people on a plane and outside a plane with no weapons, just your brain, words, and attitude. You don't get that out of a vending machine. And you don't learn that in prison. And equating the way the two might think just because of ?? .... okay, whatever. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm just writing words. *** Dear Snowmman: This is garbage ***

You're quick to dismiss him as a non-expert jumper, jumping with me in my shorts/tshirt and sandals, but have no problem with him requesting a BAK PAK (backpack) parachute according to the transcripts. like everyone knows you call them that as opposed to back parachute. He said chest parachute instead of reserve, but he was obviously clueless. So why would he say backpack and chest (i'm not sure he said chest but Neo says he did) as opposed to back and chest. Combine this with my prior post. It's also funny people want to cling to the age thing.

You obviously pick and choose what you want to consider data. In the transcripts on page 1, assuming the pilot is relaying Cooper's exact words (as we assume when we discuss 15 degree flaps) The word "knapsack" is used as an apparent demand. The word is used by Cooper in 1971 in the Northwest, and it is apparently not a clue? In the land of the blind, a one-eyed man is king.

I know someone will say it's in the posts, but: Do we know how Cooper cut the strings in the reserve chute? Did a stewardess watch the process? Is it unknown or did the stewardesses provide him with a knife or scissors. If they did not, would it have been easy to find a cutting implement? Basically I'm wondering if he had a knife in his pocket. It's also interesting to muse how skilled Cooper was at tying knots. I suppose there weren't many other good choices when they didn't deliver the money in a desired knapsack. I can't think of a better option than the string cutting. Maybe I would have rummaged thru the overhead racks for someone else's possibly larger luggage bag that was more suitable. But maybe there was none on the short flight. I was also wondering why going after those strings was faster/better than any other tying material (seatbelts etc). He made a snap decision that that was the way to solve a problem. It's interesting to muse why his brain solved the problem that way. Time was of the essence. Somehow digging into the reserve didn't strike him as a dumb thing to start doing. I also like how the non-use of a gun, or intimidation on the women, is strong evidence.

ignore me cuz I'm no expert, but Poynter seems to say it's the fiscal year of manufacture, at least on AAF chutes he quotes AAF regulation 65-35 dated Aug 10, 1943 required all AAF canopies to be stamped with the fiscal year and a serial number. he made a special note that it's fiscal year, not calendar. I assumed he meant manufacture date, but that AAF regulation should say. (not sure if Navy had different rules or ??)

The key thing about an alias you have to remember, if you ever use one...is that when the people say the alias, you have to look up and respond. If you don't, they know it's not your real name. The alias in this case was not related to any need for fake ID.

To commit the perfect crime, it's not important how you think, but how the people looking for you think. I love the negative reaction I get, because it helps explain why Cooper wasn't caught. People sometimes stress about the perfect crime needing to be perfectly thought out. You can get (and probably more likely get) the perfect crime accidentally. Cooper was the accidental perfect crime.