snowmman

Good stuff 377. I'm wondering though, whether we should also review the "dumb guy" possibility. Maybe we should reject "dumb guy" since Cooper appeared to be intelligent in most other actions. I'm sure Ckret has a lot of experience with "dumb guy" stuff, where someone pulls something off, and it seems brilliant, but the perps where actually pretty stupid. The "dumb guy" scenario would be just that Cooper knows the plane has stairs, and assumes "hey if I just open them and jump, I'm home free"...i.e. he doesn't even think thru the possibility that they might not open in flight. Why would a "dumb guy" think they wouldn't open in flight? Now the door doesn't open unless the cabin is depressurized right? (I posted the instructions for opening the door and stairs in an earlier post). The 10,000 ft limit and cabin depressurization took care of that problem. Do we say that was just "dumb guy" action? 377's point seems valid...on the whole, it seems like Cooper had to know that the combination of all his requests and actions, would lead to a successful stair deployment, even though he apparently didn't have full knowledge of the stairs, as Ckret likes to point out. Also, a "dumb guy" might think the stairs would open, but without understanding the air flow, wouldn't he be worried about all the fast air keeping the stairs from opening enough for him to squeeze out. It does seem the probabilities favor an assumption of intelligence and knowledge. Note that the pilots thought the stairs would be destroyed on landing at Reno and they were wrong. So Cooper's initial attempt to tell them to take off with stairs down might have been actually "superintelligent" knowledge. Do we know if a 727 could actually take off with stairs down? I'm no expert, but if it can land with stairs down, couldn't it take off with stairs down? (the pilots could have been wrong in the Cooper case)

I spent a lot of time looking closely at the photos of the Ingram bills at the auction site. I can't picture a scenario where someone could transport the "dry" version of those bills and fragments, and throw them in the river as a bundle or collection that transports as a single mass. Even if the bills were in better condition on the initial throw, US currency wouldn't decompose that rapidly from Fall '79 to Feb '80? Especially in the cold winter. No mold or bacteria, especialy in sand. Probably little bug action. The rubber bands would also have to go from some kind of "working state" to dry and crumble-away state. And remember, once on the beach, there's a protective layer of sand, against sun and wind damage. Going from a state where Duane would have had something to throw in the river, to the collection of fragments, doesn't add up with my feeling of bill durability. And they couldn't have been "churned by the river" because the fragments wouldn't have ended up in a pile together. So it's not just a matter of showing up at Tena Bar. The bills had to be in some kind of reasonable bundle at initial throw-in, and then have some kind of story that deteriorates them to the found state on the beach. I believe that's impossible, therefore I don't think that story is plausible. If they were thrown in the river in the fragmented, decomposed, found state, then they wouldn't have been found together in the manner Brian describes. If they had been thrown in the river years before, it might be plausible. But not in Fall '79. Edit: I was taken with Ingram "plant" theories for a while, but I believe the same thinking applies in debunking Ingram "plant" theories. It would have been too much of a pain to transport the money in that state to the beach for brian to "find". Also you'd have to "soak" them before brian found them. Even more crazy if the crumbly rubber bands really were there on discovery. How would you have gotten the bundles to the beach and soaked in that fragile state? So I think Ingram plant theories are debunked also. I think we need an estimate of the minimum time the money needed to decompose AT Tena Bar. There may have been prior decomposition elsewhere, that also could have created a meshed 3 bundle pack. Rubber bands will not deteriorate if kept very moist. I've read a lot of microbial deterioration of rubber depends on having just the right amount of moisture. This was from a piece on museums preserving rubber tires. Too much, and no microbe action. Also sand is good for low microbe/insect action. I'm estimating the money was at Tena Bar for more than one year.

[Plan B theory is: plan was to jump early, forced to jump late] Theory: If the initial plan was to jump close to Seattle, then it's possible Cooper started his day in Seattle. Ckret Question: Did the FBI check in Seattle for any ticket agents selling earlier flights to Portland that day to someone like Cooper? If you're planning on ending in Seattle with the jump, rather than Portland, then there must be something better about Seattle. The jump landing possibilities are about similar right? so why jump early? I don't really understand why that's a better plan unless you like landing close to Seattle for some reason. It was still going to be dark right? So it's not like that plan meant no nite jump. He only asked for stuff by 5, so he knew it'd be getting dark by the time they took off and he jumped, even then? McNally had a target DZ close to home. Maybe Cooper did also. If so, how did he get to Portland? Probably earlier plane right? He had the time. It's interesting turning everything upside down and thinking the target DZ was Seattle area.

Let's explore the Ckret Plan B theory. (wanted to jump early, had to jump late) So you're clueless, it's dark, you know you need to jump, you know you're a lot further from Seattle than you planned. You just flew from Portland, you know roughly how far it is. You only have a rough idea of the time cause you didn't do time/distance/speed calcs at the reduced speed. McNally supposedly timed (had a calculator of some sort at his house). Cooper probably had a watch because he was so time-focused in his demands. BUT: since you're in Plan B from Outer Space mode, don't you think Cooper waits till he sees some lights or something from Portland before he jumps? If you're in Plan B mode, why jump in the dark woods? There's no rush..why not wait till it seems safe. See what I mean: ruling out a planned jump into the deep woods, makes us veer in specific directions, assuming Cooper is a rational actor. I think so far the data tells us he is, so we should always assume rational decisions given his current situation, knowledge and available information.

Ckret ,you guessed "jump right after wheels up" but since Cooper specified wheels down, there wasn't going to be a wheels up right? They were flying with wheels down all the way to Portland right on his command? So you must be imagining some reference point other than wheels up for an early jump Altitude? distance from SEA? measured time with a watch? I'm not disagreeing with a possible "earlier" reference point for a jump, but "wheels up" is not a possible one, right? Also: do you know if they went wheels up sometime after the predicted jump to save fuel? It's unclear how they made it to Reno otherwise without going empty on fuel. Sluggo did some quicky back of the envelope calcs based on fuel consumption rates reported in the transcripts and it doesn't seem to make sense unless something changed in the plane config at some point. Thoughts?

[there's one question at the end of this] Thanks Ckret. Yes, I forgot that he might have had one plan, then he lost control of his plan and had to adapt. Good point. But then we might be able to say he had an unplanned jump into the woods, which goes to [un]survival/hard-or-no escape maybe. So there's still something maybe we've learned. You gave another clue I think, on the rig-up timeline. Sluggo's working on a flight timeline, and I wanted to overlay a "rig-up" timeline on it.. As far as I know, we've not been told for sure when he had the rig on. So if he had the chute on for takeoff, then the stuff from Tina about tying something around his waist, that was definitely after he had the chute on? So it's more likely he was tying it to the rig straps right? It would be too difficult to do under the rig straps, and going all the way around would interfere with chute deployment. So can we surmise Tina's comment about having the "knapsack around him and looks like he's ready to jump" (paraphrase) that she really means knapsack=money bag, and it was probably tied to the rig straps if she saw him tying stuff while the plane was in the air??? Also, it tells us he was messing with the stairs with the rig on, so he's thinking rationally (in case he goes out). I was wondering how he could rig up while the plane was climbing and keep his balance. Rigging up on the ground solves that. Question: Did he cut the ropes and stuff on the chest on the ground? Any idea on that? That would be hard to do while plane climbing also.

Based on our extended cigarette/match discussion, unless Ckret has something that says Cooper asked Tina for a new book of matches or something, I'm going to go out on a limb and propose Cooper wasn't at all worried about landing in the deep dark woods and having to spend the night in the cold. If it was me, I would have freaked at running out of matches if I knew I was going to be jumping into the forest, totally unclear where I was. Unless he was just going to killl himself. But then, why worry about all the money details? So I'm thinking, he was thinking forward to knowing he was going to be jumping someplace survivable..i.e. not planning to spend the night. It's like he had no stress, kicking back, smoking it up with Tina...yada, yada, yada. That is Cool Hand Luke, man. I'm thinking Cooper knew what was about to happen and wasn't stressed, even if he ran out of matches. Heck if he's a smoker, he wasn't even worried about getting a smoke on the ground? Does that mean he knew it wouldn't be long before he'd be having a stiff bourbon and soda and a smoke in a bar or at home? If he's got days of travel ahead, you'd think he'd pocket some matches for smokes (heck he smoked 8 on the plane)! Thoughts?

Cooper had no matches when he landed on the ground. There has been a lot of debate from survivalists about him spending the night on the ground with a fire in the woods. We can guess with reasonably high certainty (unless he had extra supplies he didn't use for his smokes) that he didn't have matches on the ground? Unless he pocketed a pack from Tina after she lit him up? And he was putting the moves on Tina! :) Ckret: you mentioned that the tie bar in my 5 piece set was not a good match. It has an alligator clip. What surprises me is Jo said something about 2 bars, you say alligator clip. My photo has alligator clip. What's wrong with the tie bar in my 5 piece set? It's a different kind of alligator clip? It's the tiebar in the back right of the box. Edit: I was musing to myself that the sketch circulated immediately after the hijack should have had NO TIE if you wanted to catch the eye of someone who might have given him a ride on the ground :)

The auction site with Ingram's 15 bill fragments has very high quality ZOOMABLE pics of the fronts and backs of all the fragments You can select at http://www.ha.com/common/search_items.php?txtSearch=1971+Ransom+Money&chkAuctions=1&chkInventory=1&ic=homepage_search&hdnSearch=true&optGlobalSearch=1 or for example go straight to here for the best bill http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=685&Lot_No=70286#Photo I've attached 4 jpgs zoomed in that show higher quality detail of the damage characteristics, I think. Not really sure what might be interesting though.

Evidently Tina Mucklow's hometown at the time of the hijack was in the Bucks County, PA area. The local paper, the Bucks County Courier Times interviewed her stepmom about her phone conversations with Tina immediately after the hijack, and with officials during the hijack. In an article on page 1 and 4 of the 11/26/71 edition, Tina's stepmom relays what the airline officials said when they called her while the hijack was in progress. "They comforted the family with reports that the hijacker didn't seem to be insane. "They said he was very intelligent and knew a lot about planes and parachutes and that he was being very pleasant with Tina." the stepmother related. Other detail worth noting is that Tina was a stewardess for 2 1/2 years before the hijack. It has one thing that seems wrong. It says she was threatened with pushing near an open door if his demands weren't met. I don't think Cooper ever threatened anyone, right? Also, pictures of Tina afterward shows her with her hair down. I think the pictures we have from Orbis we have may not have been from immediately after the hijack. I have some of the photos with her hair down, and she looks more like I would expect for a 22 year old in 1971, compared to the hair-up-do picture. In a touch of the early '70s, I thought this was an amusing quote from the stepmom. "Tina is about 5-foot eight inches tall, slender and blonde. Mrs. Mucklow says the photo taken of her after the ordeal does not do her justice. She's a beautiful girl and her hair is always perfect but I guess that ordeal was enough to leave anyone disheveled. She really looked exhausted". You go girl! I attached the snippet about planes and parachutes. (remember the stepmom is relaying what they told her the night before)

(Edit: good points made by Orange1 just above on the brother theory) There's this whole theory about Duane throwing money in the river on a certain date, and showing up months later, slightly covered by sand high on the river bank at Tena Bar. For this story to work, the Columbia would have to be some number of feet higher, at some point before the money find, and at, or after the "throw-in" date. My guess is that the river would have to have been at least 4 feet higher in that period, compared to the find date. This is based on looking at the Tena Bar dig photo and the beach slope. The water could have been higher, as the bag may not have floated, or it may have travelled intermittently at different water heights. But it would have to at least once been high enough to get up on the shore. (unless you subscribe to wave theories, but I don't think that gives you sand coverage) This is a short period of time. Fall '79 to Feb '80. I suppose with winter rains the water could rise that high easily. Be nice if we had records that showed how high the Columbia went in that short period. (around Portland/Vancouver)

Jo, I've always thought that you needed to put Duane in a pilot's seat, or connected to aviation, not a parachute. Everything we've discussed here, and even McNally, suggests we could go down the path of saying zero jump experience is potentially ok. I couldn't understand why you pursued a parachute connection for Duane because it doesn't seem needed to me. Edit: oh you already said much older for the brother. I can't believe this story about schematics laying around. I mean forget all the nonsense about MLK and Ray bros and Bay of Pigs. I really like the idea that Cooper may have got plane knowledge from a friend or family. Especially a family member he may have later had issues with. Can you go into detail about these schematics. I really can't believe that. Did you see them? where did that story come from? were you there?

So not possible Cooper had something like a Bic lighter. Not sure if there were other's like it before 1972. I suspect not. if he had a lighter, it was probably the kind you snap open and pour lighter fluid into the felt? I remember my dad's. I'm not sure if there were semi-transparent versions. They were usually metal. reference http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/BIC-Corporation-Company-History.html Expanding Its Product Line in the 1970s In 1970 Gillette purchased the S. T. Dupont Company, a prestigious French manufacturer whose principal product was luxury cigarette lighters that sold for hundreds of dollars. During this time Dupont explored the possibilities of marketing a disposable lighter, developing an inexpensive disposable lighter called Cricket, which it introduced in the United States in 1972. Later that year Time reported that BIC was test marketing a disposable lighter that could provide 3,000 lights before wearing out. BIC introduced this lighter in 1973.

If Tina lit a smoke for Cooper, it was probably matches. Lighting with a lighter is usually a solitary operation, right (cause it can be one-handed, plus more flame control issues) Matches is the more common "two-person" operation. Edit: I would also note Carr didn't report "Tina lent him her lighter. ...hmm was Tina a smoker? is that why she had matches or ??? So if Tina used a match, it may mean Cooper ran out. Probability suggests probably not because his lighter ran out, but he ran out of matches. Did Tina supply the match she used to light him up? I can't imagine Cooper handing her a book and saying "Light me up"...if so that's a weird power trip he's on. So if Cooper was using matches before the Tina lightup, were matches found along with the butts? Ideally, you'd find the empty matchbook, right? Feedback on where my thinking might be wrong here? I guess I'm wondering if Carr can squeeze more out of this in his files. Edit: Note that Tina could have just given him a book of matches. Interesting that she lit one for him. If it was a wild-eyed 28 year old with a machine gun, she probably would have just given him a book....

re clasp direction There's a second (current) news photo where the tie clasp is on the other (correct) side. (attached) url is http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/340794_cooper23.html?source=mypi This photo actually is clearer than the FBI photo, also. Edit: you can tell my photo here is not flipped because there is text on the envelopes in the background that reads correctly. Carr has said here before he takes the clasp off and puts it back on when he shows the tie to journalists. Either the one photo is flipped, or Carr doesn't pay attention when he puts the clasp on? Maybe Carr is messing with us?? or is it the photographer? p.s I never would have thought I'd say it, but I'm starting to think about Duane as Cooper. (today) I don't mean to offend Jo or other females here, but it sounds like Duane knew how to "charm" women. We knew that Tina didn't think badly of Cooper, but I'm really surprised she lit a smoke for him. I mean that's a pretty trusting/close act. Maybe she was just trying to save her skin and make him feel comfortable. I've very curious about this new-to-me thing about Duane's brother and Boeing. Yes we all suspect Jo makes things up on the fly to fit new facts. But Jo, can you give more detail? This sounds like a hard fact/claim that you should be able to provide more evidence on. Is the brother still alive? What did the brother do at Boeing?

(I think I got these dates right...) I was just noticing that N467US (the Cooper plane) was the 137th 727 built. (although it's trash now, there are actually a handful built earlier than it that are still flying, 40+ years after manufacture!) N467US was first flown 4/9/65 and delivered 4/22/65. The very first 727 was first flown 2/9/63 in Renton, WA and actually not delivered until well after the second one was delivered on 3/12/63 The 727 program was started at Boeing in 1959. So if Cooper was mid 40's (45) then he could have been at Boeing 12 years before 1971, say when he was 33. He could have been involved in 727 development in some way, rather than just some random job in aviation. Maybe got laid off, and got pissed, especially if he had been a lifer. Might feel connected to 727s. Interesting question, what would Cooper have been doing in 1959 at the start of the 727 development program? Or even further back, would he have been a college boy? That would be mid-1940's, right after WWII. Maybe went to college on GI bill? Or maybe wasn't in WWII or Korea at all. Just a kid in college around '44 to '48 or thereabouts? Maybe absolutely zero military experience. Jumpers here have mentioned the "wannabe" scenario. edit: also, doesn't his dress at that age, seem to say the probabilities favor him being married? I have a hard time picturing him as the mid-40's single guy in a business suit in 1971 doing a hijack. Like how narrow was that tie: is it 1.5" or 2"? edit: and then if he's married, the probabilities (in '60 thru '71 say) favor him having a kid or more. That's why I was thinking about the 5-piece set for father's day or something. I had a theory that the tie could have been left as a suicide note. If he died, the family would know. If he didn't, it wouldn't be traceable to him.

skyjack71 makes one good point. It's very hard for anyone interested in this case to understand what's a clue and what's not. Everyone on the outside has like zero info. I actually believed Carr in the media when he said he wanted to invite the public in. Obviously the reality is different. There really is no investigation, and Carr is just hoping media attention shakes the tree and something falls out. Me, I'm just like Sluggo. The case is interesting. It's a nice puzzle for one's brain. I like searching for data. I have no idea what's a clue and what's not. I have many thoughts and tidbits, and I throw out things randomly to get feedback. Here's one for the conspiracy theorists. As far as I can tell, it looks like Agent H. may have acquired a 1952 Beech C35 in 1973. What does it mean? probably nothing. But it highlights that there are lots of random facts that can make this case much deeper than the trivial myths that have been thrown around for 36 years. It's like the Cooper investigation has always been a grade B movie. Sometimes I worry about libel issues, but I figure anyone who has publicly associated themselves with this case is fair game for speculation.

I believe the pics are accurate for the time. (chime in if you know for sure) first is a full pack. second is a flat pack so you can read front/side/back I have a mental image of the first thing Cooper might have done on landing. Light another Raleigh and say to himself : "Holy S***!" (hey my full post on smoking questions disappeared? did it get deleted, or does the forum sometimes drop things accidently? should I repost it in case Ckret might answer some of it?)

Canopus, There are reasonable issues here. And McNally doesn't necessarily prove anything either. But it should open our eyes a bit. I'll give some thoughts. Everyone should chime in with their thoughts. First, everyone was and is trying to predict the result of an experiment, which we'll call Cooper. Think of it as predicting reliability. Success/Failure. No one was able to present data from an exact experiment that duplicated "it", based on our guesses of Cooper's skill level. And no one is going to send a novice out on a similar experiment as a test, in case of death. Also, at first, the weather conditions were stated wrong. In fact, it would be nice if Sluggo posted the currently believed conditions, including wind and cloud cover. I don't think we all understand the conditions yet. The conditions, as we now understand, were sort of mild, right? The jump zone in the "rough terrain" may have been overstated. Note that of the 3 drift paths on Carr's map, 2 of them are in current farmland. They should have said something like 25% chance of jump in rough, 75% chance of jump in not-so-rough terrain. The press pushing the -7 deg air temp hard, was a big messup. They didn't understand Celsius vs Fahrenheit, and they emphasized wind chill, which is bogus for understanding survivability, or ability to operate, in this case. They didn't report ground temps. The wind speeds were overstated. Also, there may have been too much read into the chest chutes for intuiting skill level. There are other "tells" on skill level. But at first blush, McNally seemed like a fool compared to Cooper. I'm still wondering about how fast Cooper rigged, and whether he was rigged when he was opening the stairs. Goggles are a big deal..but then again, we don't know that Cooper didn't have any. (not sure about McNally). We also are missing data, like whether the NB6+28 had been jumped before, and how hard a pull it was. Some data is fuzzy, like the amount of cloud cover. So everyone has been trying to extrapolate from their own personal experience which resulted in successes, and predict how that might apply to the Cooper situation. My experience in computer reliability testing, is that it's very difficult to predict failure, using only data that resulted in success. And most of the "data" we're using is the opinions of people who have been successful in jet exits, or other experiences (training novices say) that mostly result in successes. Yes there is some failure (death) experiences, but unclear whether it applies to the Cooper experiment. As far as I can tell there was little data that said "I know this guy who did this and he's dead and that's why Cooper's probably dead" Most of what I read, seemed like "I did this and it was hard and scary, therefore Cooper's probably dead". I know I'm simplifying a lot of intelligent, informed discussion, and I got banned last time for having too much of attitude about this. I don't think we itemized the exact physical or mental skills or knowledge needed for the jump well. Cooper clearly had mental control. It's been fuzzy understanding whether there's a hard requirement for body-in-air control knowledge. That requirement may be overstated. [McNally may tell us that] The other part of this, is that the FBI kind of wanted the answer that Cooper probably died. So I think they kind of went to jumpers looking for confirmation of a belief. Remember the pilots on McNally plane stated that they thought he probably died. In the end, the problem is its about predicting the results of an experiment that few people really do. McNally did one that's close. He's alive. Interestingly, the data on injuries is useful. (bruised face, bruises from straps). It would be very interesting to know what kind of canopy McNally had (no broken leg on landing? and no dislocated arms). He made his may back to Michigan undetected. Until the end, that is. On another note. Apparently McNally's gun and chute were found together. So somehow he didn't lose the gun on the jump? I was wondering if Cooper's determination in tying the bag to himself, after failing to stuff the money in the chest containers, actually showed that he understood a little about the forces in jet exits, while McNally seemed to know less (lost bag). Now Cooper may have lost his money too. We don't know how McNally attached his bag. (he wouldn't hold it like they said: how do you pull then?) I think there have been some bad assumptions, potentially led on by the FBI. There's no reason to assume Cooper jumped with the briefcase in his hand. There's no reason to believe he jumped with stuff flapping. He could have tossed stuff, that just hasn't been found, or found but not reported because it wasn't unusual. All I'm really saying, is that when I look at the data, I can't see why it proves Cooper is dead past 90% confidence. or even 80% confidence. If you can't prove significantly past 50% confidence that someone's dead, then you assume they're alive, in my book. Or you say "Can't Know" and assume alive. I think it's important to divorce the jump success prediction from other data like the money find, etc, because it just clouds the judgment with more fuzzy data. .

sort-of-modern pic from an airplane. But it's nice for visualizing drift scenarios. You can see Fazio Bros. Sand Company there just above Caterpillar Island, for pinpointing the money find on Tena Bar. I have reports that Caterpillar Island has almost completed flooded in the past. That's obviously possible when looking at it's contours on a topo map. Included topo also. I'm not a river expert, but it's interesting seeing that the money find location is consistent with possible eddy currents or low velocity water flow. I had a theory of the money being "dry" on Caterpillar Island for a while, possibly buried on impact or something, and then be released during flood conditions. Partly theorizing that the money might not have drifted far, if it did drift. I was thinking "not far" in order to maintain the stacked or meshed find condition. Could have drifted in "meshed" state, if it didn't go too far? There was a news article of the hijack in the Phillipines? where the guy made a home made chute (which failed). He impacted hard enough that only his hand was sticking out of the ground. (they say). Must have been soft ground. Made me muse about Cooper and/or money impacting in soft ground.

Ckret has mentioned a "cheap clasp" on the tie bar which is not visible in the photos. Attached is a photo not related, but I think may be similar. It is a money clip, collar pin, cuff link, tie tack, tie bar set. The tie bar is the back right. (there's a tie tack in front of it, but that's not the one to look at) Folks opinions matching it to Ckret's photo? The gold is a little tarnished in this photo. Maybe this will help remind Ckret he promised better photos. This may also make people think of how the tie bar might really be part of a cheap set, like what someone might have gotten as present on father's day? or something like that. Money clip is interesting. A whole set may not have been owned or used by Cooper, though. Our "cultural googles" make the tie bar look exotic in Ckret's photo. (phrase per sluggo) In this photo, it's more obvious it could be part of a cheap set (or a similar one). They seemed commonly advertised in the newspapers in the '60's -early '70s. I was surprised to see that money clips were part of the common sets. I don't know how many people actually used the collar pins back then.

just another curious fact. [note the period in question overlaps the Cooper hijack 11/24/71] Northwest Airlines pilots' contract with Northwest expired June 30, 1971 and negotiations began three months before that. They still didn't have a contract by June, 1972 The National Mediation Board declared efforts had been exhausted and a 30-day cooling -of period was required. This ended June 30, 1972 The pilots threatened a strike then. [haven't researched the final outcome] So: at the time they were flying Flight 305, the pilots had an expired contract. attached jpg is from news article dated 6/29/72 but you can backcalculate the dates mentioned.

Brian Ingram has done a lot of interviews as part of his money auction. Although we all know reporters get things messed up, it's been curious to me that he consistently says something about the bundle positioning and rubber bands, but the language changes sometimes. I'm half thinking he's had too much prompting from the FBI, or wants to keep the mystery in the story. This, along with other details, tells me we really don't understand the money find fully. He has described the bundles as "all meshed together" or "touching each other" or "stacked neatly on top of one another" (Google search those exact phrases, along with Brian Ingram and you'll find the references) Another random funny coincidence: Brian, after high school, joined the Army for 3 years and ended up as a medic in an airborne division, apparently.

Hi quade. I know it sounds crazy. But I posted the news article that describes the pants issue. You can read it above (the 2nd post/pdf) I suppose they found pants with the chute and gun? (don't know how close). But then they wonder how McNally made it back to Michigan from Indiana (they weren't sure how) and he had pants. It sounds dumb once you think of the rig straps, eh? Maybe he left "spare" pants he didn't use with the chute? More likely someone messed up in the initial story, I suppose. It looks like after 7/1/72 they don't repeat the pants angle anymore. What's also funny, is that there were a number of reports of pants found in the Cooper jump zone thru the years. Some articles imply McNally was just "holding" the money bag, but that's hard to believe. He must have attached it somehow...dunno...it blew away no matter what. BUT: assuming he kept his pants..it does tell us that there's an existence proof for novice jumper, just wearing pants, at night? don't know what shoes or if had goggles. Interestingly, if he didn't lose his pants (shred) that's good data too. Means Cooper might not have been noticeable from shredded pants! (I almost love talking about pants theories more than rubber band theories!) And we're not even past question 96 yet!

Evidently not all of the capture detail was in my prior post, and it's funny/interesting. Attached is a news article from 7/1/72. Apparently he was picked up by a local cop and kept under surveillance? He apparently lost his pants on the jump, but found a new pair of pants. Got a bruised face on the jump. (plus some other bruises apparently from rig straps?) Note pilots told FBI that they expected he died on the jump because of the speed. Much like people have said about Cooper, actually. His partner didn't turn until the police pointed out how bad his story was. Hmm..amazing how the details of things are always more complicated than you first read about. I'm still not sure about all the details of this McNally thing. It looks like it was Detroit Police who cracked the case, not FBI Although the FBI claims they had prints from the hijack note. Also, correlating to the note about difficulties understand the rig (above) one article suggested this could have been McNally's first jump. Don't know for sure.