snowmman

I have posted details of the McNally hijack on June 23-24, 1972, culminating in a night jump. Thought it would be useful to detail his money container, jump, and rig acquisition, compared to Cooper. McNally asked for, and got, $502,000. (some say $502,200]. McNally's money apparently arrived in a "American Airlines mail pouch". I doubt the container was specified by McNally that way. Maybe he didn't specify. Unlike McCoy, but like Cooper, McNally asked for and got parachuting equipment. I don't know what kind of rig he received. McNally jumped at 3 A.M. in Indiana with a claimed air speed of 263 knots and altitude = 10,000 ft. McNally lost the money on the jump. It was found by a farmer who later quibbled about the size of his reward. http://www.altlaw.org/v1/cases/464749 appeal: http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F2/485/398/ Now given the Loss of Money by McNally, Cooper's request for just $200,000 might be seen in a more positive light...i.e. better planned? $500k was too much? If Cooper's plan was to use the chest containers to hold money, maybe he should have just jammed in as much as would fit? But maybe he realized they didn't attach to his harness anyhow. In terms of "skill levels", McNally has been described as an "unemployed veteran" but his jump training is unknown (to me). Below, an article says "Airline attendants later said he had difficulty understanding how to use the parachute." Based on these facts, if McNally hadn't been found, would you assume him to be dead or alive? It appears he was only found based on "reliable information" at home in Michigan..Apparently this was an informant named Petlikowsky who walked into a police station to talk. Petlikowsky apparently planned it with McNally for 5 months. (Petlikowsky was charged with aiding and abetting) McNally also carried a briefcase, into which he had fitted a sawed off machine gun. The FBI said his original plan was to jump near Monroe, Mich, 40 miles from where he lived. Even though they found the money and gun and chute in the Indiana field, would they have found McNally without a buddy who turned? Would he have not lost the money if he had been smarter about the size and the bag attach? Is the assumption that McNally had mad jumping skillz? McCoy is not the right hijack to compare to Cooper. McNally is. Note: they even had smuggled a FBI agent onto the plane as a "pilot". I don't know what clothes McNally was wearing, if that's really important, or if he wore googles or jump boots. Maybe someone else knows? EDIT: here's a dramatic update http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/itemsofinterest/centennial/centennial_storypage.asp?ID=070729_1_A4_spanc01672 or http://www.tulsaworld.com/TWPDFs/2007/Final/W_070807_A_4.pdf apparently there were two FBI agents on the plane? and one showed him how to rig up and jump? I don't know if this is true (the article says it) but it doesn't sound like mad skillz. I don't know if there were injuries due to the exit or the landing. If McNally achieved this, how am I supposed to correlate the opinions expressed here, and the success/failure predictions for Cooper?

good thoughts nitro. I have zero knowledge compared to you, and am only trying to be as analytical as a scientist would, and hope it doesn't come off as being offensive. I have a thought. Do we know if the NB6+28 pack that Cossey did had been jumped before? or was Cooper the first to try that container+canopy? If Cossey or someone else jumped with it as packed for the nite Cooper got it, then we could reasonably assume Cooper would be able to get the pull (with some defactoring based on some assessment of whether he had the appropriate skill needed for the pull) Does anyone know if Cossey was asked whether that container + canopy had been jumped before, as packed? This would be better data then packing some other nb6+28? Since we don't know about mods (as mentioned before), it would have to be that container plus canopy, not whether someone knows of "any" nb6+28 had that had been jumped, or fish scaled, right? oh ps: we actually don't really know if the placard should have blown out. We don't know the attach method, whether Cooper removed it, or even if Flight 305 still had it's placard when it landed. I haven't heard enough to understand whether it's possible for it to have been removed easily.

I had another musing/thought, which may be applicable as we're reviewing the whole sport/military chest/back and knapsack issue. Once you strip away all the mythology and just look at the facts, Cooper complaining that "McChord is only 20 minutes away" when he was moaning about delays, says to me that he ASSUMED the chutes would come from McChord. Therefore he may have ASSUMED he would get military chutes? The thought may have never occurred to him that they might get them from a sport jumping center. Again it's guessing, but if I had to guess, it seems [to me] like he expected military. This whole "rejected military chutes" mythology has led to a lot of bad thinking? The closeness of a military base may have been one of the things that favored Seattle as the plane landing site. He had to land somewhere to get the money. His plan apparently required chute and fuel pickup also. Seattle had predictable access to chutes? (especially pilot reserve chutes). It's been said here that sport jumping was kind of like motorcycle clubs back then. Would Cooper have trusted the plan to the behaviors/capabilities of a motorcycle club? The stew notes show how concerned he was with time. Would you trust an air force base or a sport jumping club to provide chutes on some kind of demand timetable? I'm also wondering if Seattle was picked because it was an "easy" hijack site. Lower FBI presence? Surprising number of hijacks in that area in the future (for the population..assuming hijacks might be distributed geographically based on population density. probably not true though). re: hard pull maybe true. But Cossey packed it and believed that whoever was going to use it would use it and survive. So now we're saying that Cossey packed a chute that had a lower expectation of success. I'm not sure why I should believe that? Unless you're saying Cossey packed a chute such that trained experts would be successful, but novices less successful. Maybe. All that does is lower the probability of success by some factor. It doesn't guarantee death.

thanks for the insights dumstuntzz and orange1. You can see the problem Sluggo and I are having mentally. If a pilot jumps out of a burning plane with just a NB6, it's likely he'll live, and he's not considered novice. Cooper jumps out of a plane he hijacked, with just a NB6, that you can't cutaway anyhow, and it seems we want to make a decision about his skill level based on not finding one of the two chest packs on the plane afterwards. Read the last line of the stew notes at sluggo's site. I'm curious whether anyone agrees that he may have been saying "fine we'll land if you just get one chest chute, if that's what we're waiting on" The exact line is "If the case waiting for one chest chute go ahead + go down". Chest was written in afterwards, above the line. I'm wondering if the chests were all about requests for money containers, and somehow the mythology has created a whole back story about skill level implications, when that doesn't make sense. See what I mean? Do we all believe the claim that he tried stuffing the money in the chest he opened? Or maybe he tried stuffing it in the other chest? I guess we really don't know about this "doesn't fit" claim. If the door placard could blow out the open stairs, I suppose a lot of stuff could blow out? So missing chest pack could easily mean nothing.

There are easily 100 things that have not been discussed. I'll throw out one or two that people here might have good insight on, or opinions to keep Sluggo alive, or can say "it's in the old thread.." Cooper was very specific about a lot of things. He asked for the money in a knapsack? Why? Do hijackers commonly specify the money container? Probably not. Why didn't Cooper just say "200 thousand" Why did Cooper want it in a knapsack? He knew he was going to wear a parachute. So he's not going to wear it on his back. Is he going to wear the knapsack backwards? The straps might interfere with chute deployment. Was he going to try stuffing it in the chest pack, as we're told he tried with the money?" Was he going to hang it from himself? How did he know he'd get rope? Is that why he wanted two rigs? Is that why he had a knife? Did he have a knife or did he use the service cutlery? We're told he tried stuffing the money in the chest pack and it didn't fit. Who saw and decided on that interpretation of his actions? Was it Tina? Was she wrong if so? Did Cooper yell "Doesn't Fit, Must Acquit?" Did he ask for the knapsack because he knew he'd have to walk on the ground. Did he know the money would arrive in 20's and weigh about 21 lbs, so if he was walking on ground he'd want a knapsack? It's been suggested that he was a "novice" because he didn't ask for 100's and get a 5 lb load, for easier jumping. But passing 100's in 1971 might have been difficult right? Why ask for 100's for a lighter load if you can't pass them? he asked for negotiable currency? So he got exactly what he wanted? Why am I supposed to say he's Novice based on the money load? No use succeeding on the jump if you can't use the money. (people should reference the FBI pages on the Brinks robbery to understand how money passing was part of their undoing) So he asks for a knapsack. I don't think we've discussed at all what that means. We talked a lot about him asking for chest packs. I think our interpretation could be wrong. If you read the stew notes, the last line implies he was willing to live with just one. You could read that as saying he just wanted the chest pack as a money container during the jump. Especially if he tried to stuff the money in the chest pak as we've been told (unclear if true) Ckret has implied he's novice because he jumped with (or threw out) the bad chest. Well: tell me this guys. Night jump in those conditions. Does having a chest reserve or not mean much for the probability of success? I mean if the main fails he's gotta cutaway. Doesn't his base survival probability depend on whether the main deploys correctly...and any additional reliability by having a reserve, is probably minor. Look at the stats on main canopy deployment/failure, right? not opinions. Data/facts. Plus the d rings were wrong anyhow, right? Has everything I've mentioned here been resolved? And this is just one or two issues. There's 98 more., What's the timeline for when he started putting on the rig to the jump? Did Tina see him rig up? How smooth was he, how long did he take? Did he rig up in 15 minutes and jump? How long do guys go from nothing to rig on and jumping? don't you fiddle around? It's been implied that a novice getting a random rig will be laughable as he tries to get it on. Has it been resolved how long it took Cooper to rig up and when he started? Did he start opening the airstairs with the rig on or not? Did he have Tina showing him airstair operation while he was rigged, or not rigged? Did Tina see him with the rig on? When the transcript (Tina?) says he has the "knapsack around him" did she mean the rig? When Tina says she saw him tying something around his waist, was it rope only, or the money bag? Was the rig already on? Ckret is the gatekeeper for a lot of data. Do we think so far his interpretative style of data release, rather than raw data, is correct? Why are Ckret's interpretations any more acccurate than Agent H's. Could Ckret be just as wrong? 97 more questions to go :)

I'm just going off on a tangent cause I had a nice cup of coffee. Now that we all have new bifocals (I hope everyone read the obits like I did up to 2006 so I don't have to mention that for a son) ...but here's the difference between joining the whuffo gang and being in snow's gang whuffo gang who's afraid to shoot -wannabe criminals. You won't see them pulling out fingernails for fun to pass the time of day. -only need one set of balls. rest whuffos. Too many balls usually spoil the culture. -start a new business afterwards. -do searches where during radio interviews you always hem and haw about how much it costs you -fun to offer big rewards cause you don't have to worry about it! -write a book but privately publish it so you don't get a lot of scrutiny from those fussy editors and proofreaders -always get your story out to the press...sell sell sell -with your private book publish, you get to be fuzzy about how many of the damn things you sell. Hey I'm just minting money! now if you're in snow's gang, you've only got a 50% survival probability since we shoot half the folks afterwards to double the success probability! And went in with the AK's we got from ckret blazing!...just kidding hah-hah I love a good comic book.

since the possible reality already has 14 grassy knolls, the obvious 15th grassy knoll if you were writing the science fiction story, is Tosaw.

When I was looking on the web, I saw some beautiful pictures of the Lewis River. I really have to go do my taxes (and destroy any downloaded mp3s and unlicensed software and run the hemp plants thru the chipper/shredder...just kidding!) but maybe someone can post pics of the Lewis River for fun?ah I'm just trying to be funny..bye bye

I actually have to go to a 4 day dog trial starting thurs. [edit] it's agility. I have border collies. It's mostly women there and they never talk to me so I don't talk to them (I'm married) so it's going to be pretty boring for me till next Monday when I'll check in. And I put off doing my taxes cause I got sucked into this. I've done a bunch of climbing/mountaineering. Although I'm not a jumper, I think I identified with the folks here because, with risk sports, it's not about bragging about putting the gun in your mouth, (I'm just being euphemistic about taking risks) it's about being able to take it out! And therein lies the secret to life.. I know for me, I can imagine most anything being possible, cause when faced with a life-or-death decision, you just keeping putting one foot in front of the other. i.e. as long as you don't stop, you stay alive. So it doesn't have to be all that rational. You just keep making the next logical decision. You have to be in that situation to understand it I think. ...but lots of folk (especially military) on this thread can probably tell bigger stories than me! Now I'm sure there's a lot of elders who can recognize a whuffo whuff...So I'll shut up now. Please no flames! So even though I'm a whuffo, I do share a feeling for why you guys jump. Maybe someday for me..who knows. I hear all the old farts here say they still do it. like I said to 377, this whuffo learned one thing, Blue Skies! -snow

you guys actually suckered me in. A thread is not complete until it reverts to a comparison to Hitler as we all know :) I'm done with this. I've got to get back to my life. I'll check in like at the end of week.

pilots? is it common for commercial pilots to wear clip on ties and remove them while in the cockpit? just wondering. *** Now, who wears clip-on ties (in 1971)? Security guards Waiters and other food service personnel People who have seldom worn a tie (Twice, I have had adults who have never worn a real tie {exculding women} ask me to (or tech them how) tie a tie. They all had been wearing clip-ons previously.) (Some) Law Enforce Personnel Anybody have more...? Sluggo_Monster

theory: tiebar was a false clue (i.e. opposite to personality) facts: no other evidence was left behind. Cooper was careful to retrieve notes. Didn't leave bomb even though of no value any more for escape. suppositions: I was looking for similar pictures of that tiebar on the web (period pieces). Couldn't find any, even though many vintage pieces were there. Got me thinking that it would be someone that would be somewhat of a dandy, or effeminate even, to wear which would be odd for the person in the composite FBI sketch [yes I am using stereotypes/bias] I used to go to a Catholic school in the late 60's and wear a tie every day, from ages 6 to 13. I would rummage thru my dad's drawer for a tieclip. They were always the rectangular blocky ones in those days. He never had a tie bar like that thin thing with mother of pearl. In fact, a lot of males would worry about being called "gay" based on military experience taunts. My dad used to try to pass such taunts on to me, as I was the generation starting to grow long hair. So I was wondering "Hmm maybe part of tight social community not infiltrated by FBI"...Seattle gay community was just emerging then in 1971 publicly...there was an attempt at a gay civil marriage ceremony also in '71 in Seattle. Stonewall was '69 in NY. But then I chewed on that idea some more, and am comfortable more with the theory that a studly type (because of some aviation experience) actually picked something that would be totally against his grain...i.e. it was an attempt to disguise. It might have been left behind on purpose as a false clue.

Sluggo. I am afraid of you now. I will run from you if I ever meet you. You used the effeminate word, which is amazing. Because I said nothing in any of my posts that might even suggest that word. I am going to post my tiebar theory.

I would ask people to trust me that I have no hidden agenda. In fact, while musing about Cooper and his motivations/planning etc, muse on how you have no idea what my motivations might be, my sources of information, or when I am lying or telling the truth. I really have no direct experience other than web searching. All I can say is I am just interested in the answer. And my experience tells me I may be wrong a lot, but I'm sort of a shotgun. If I get close, then maybe others can narrow the target to the correct one. Yes I may be off the wall. But that might help stimulate thought processes. So hopefully not a waste of time. two thoughts on airliner: 707 Dash 80 free associate on that. as an example of shotgun thinking: Rather than "savior", Cooper could have been "disciple of savior"...i.e. the mental states/knowledge can be transferred among a tight group easily, causing the personalities to be intermingled.

Nick is likely correct on the airliner. I'm not an airplane expert, and my source data is a little weak. I can say the likely plane, based on other info, if people want to make more guesses.

I'm incorporating/riffing on some thoughts expressed by other posters theory: Pilot Scott recognized or thought he recognized Cooper facts: (i may be incorrect. will edit based on feedback] Pilot Scott never tried to sneak a glance at Cooper to assess threat level subjectively? relied on secondhand info? Seems the personality that would "captain the ship" would want firsthand info, even fleeting. Maybe he did get a glance, but denied it afterwards to avoid having to give a description. fact: There wasn't a strong attempt to determine threat level post Cooper jump prediction. Either because they believed an attempt to do that would increase the threat or Scott knew the threat didn't exist after predicted Cooper exit..i.e. Scott knew Cooper didn't have a bomb or wouldn't leave one.

Hi Nick. doesn't camping/hiking demographic include the Boy Scout demographic you're mentioning?

Describe the tie bar subject A might have been wearing in 1954 and the tie bar he might have been wearing in 1971. ignore anything you know about the Cooper tiebar. Just think about what you know from personal experience in those two eras.

damn sluggo, that's excellent feedback. I hope you're not in the next bank I rob, or ckret will have me in 3 secs :) I'm frigging amazed by your height/weight estimate. I don't know the subject's data at that point, but I'm really interested in how you could just whip off an estimate like that. What if I said the subject was intensely involved in a big project during the years preceding 1971. Would that lower your weight estimate for 1971? i.e. he was working in the commercial industry in 1971, but maybe military in '54 (more relaxed then, military food etc..whatever I dunno)

Theory: there has been speculation Cooper had no family. But maybe he did and had life insurance but no job. May have convinced himself that he'd either get the money, but if he didn't (and died) that maybe they'd be able to collect insurance (if body not found). basically the "I'm worth more to them dead, then alive" correlated to depression/lack of fear theories. counterfact: I suppose the FBI would have investigated any random "no body found" cases. But as noted, aviation insiders might not have been thoroughly investigated due to Agent H. bias. But maybe Cooper was successful, so there was no disappearance..so it played into Cooper's state of mind only.

Theory: disgruntled aviation engineer/test pilot/something who decides the "higher-ups" are avoiding fixing a problem that needs to be fixed...i.e. the aft stairs can be opened in flight. fact: the Cooper vane was invented/deployed after the cooper incident (actually after the 1972 incidents but they were triggered by Cooper? (copycat)) fact: no one was hurt. so maybe the ends justified the means. i.e. a safety or security threat was fixed. Maybe Cooper perceived himself to be a savior, or railing against bureaucracy. counter fact: asked for money. But maybe there were a lot of contributing reasons to state of mind. For instance a project being cancelled, business failure, laid off, fired, partner loss etc. This theory could be a small part of overall state of mind. Imagine if you had a 17 year old that came up for the Vietnam draft in 1971 and you couldn't get him into college (deferment) for money reasons. Just musing. I mention this theory, because I had similar thought processes and deliberately crashed a large number of computers in a Fortune 500 company to demonstrate the need to fix issues customers were exposed to, that the company was turning a blind eye to. What happens, is you justify your actions "for the better good".

Theory: Cooper may have been closer to a hiking/camping/climbing/mountaineering/ex-military demographic than a jumping demographic fact: the language used in the original demand. "knapsack" was used, which probably was not a widely used term in 1971. (outdoor recreational sports were not as widespread as today). fact: Used the words "back" and "chest" for parachutes, but evidently those are not the words a jumper would use. Although it has been pointed out he may have used language directed to nonjumpers. But: he would know the language would be passed on to riggers/jumpers, so even if he initially was talking to nonjumpers, he probably would have used the right technical language to be sure of getting the right thing. When I need ckret to get me an AK-47 and an oxy acetylene torch as I'm holding hostages in the bank, that's what I ask for, no matter who is taking the message. Because I want exactly the right thing (as far as my knowledge goes.) related fact: I think Cooper may have provided his own knife for cutting shroud lines. ckret has not provided info we can digest on this.

This is a real photo of a real person. untouched. It was taken probably 1954 or 1955. subject was probably 31 or 32. Would be 48 in 1971. I was wondering how people react to it. Just free associate. There is no theory or anything with this. It's just a rorschach test.

Theory: Agent H. was biased to trust the testimony of aviation folk (fliers or otherwise) and not suspect them as highly as other demographic groups fact: Agent H. was a flier (apparently private pilot..don't know about other experience) fact: interviews with Agent H. where he states his frame of mind http://nymag.com/news/features/39593/index5.html ” But what about a lone employee? Himmelsbach ruled this out too. “If you were acquainted as I was with many of the people in the airline industry,” he explained, “they are exceptional people. They are head and shoulders above the standards and the values and the character of normal, average Americans.” Depending on your point of view, that's an odd statement that could be read as someone trying to justify some action taken in the past.

I had deleted my post about the 727 crash that killed a bunch of people that year, with planned final dest. of Seattle. If you start musing about suicide run theories, and Sluggo's list of contributors (loss of partner), you can see how that info might be useful just to muse on. (not contributing to revenge theory but to state of mind theory). It's just interesting how data can be perceived to be worthless or not, depending on what we're all thinking about at a point in time. But everyone's right, data and theory should be presented correctly to avoid pollution.