snowmman

(edit) scroll down to what I bolded What we missed, was that MO was special back then. (edit) parole board apparently didn't have full powers till '79? Our thinking about MO commutations during that period was myth, basically. MO was different. The Kansas City Star 1998-10-07 Section: METROPOLITAN Edition: METROPOLITAN Page: C1 Democrats released thousands of prisoners Records show that other governors acted much like Kit Bond. WILL SENTELL STEVE KRASKE Staff Writers JEFFERSON CITY - While Republican Kit Bond is under fire from his Democratic opponent for commuting the sentences of thousands of Missouri prisoners when Bond was governor, documents on Tuesday showed that Democratic governors before and after Bond had similar records. However, unlike in Bond's case, there were no immediate charges Tuesday that any prisoners released by Democratic governors later wound up on death row. Bond, who is seeking a third term in the U.S. Senate, was criticized Monday by Democrat Jay Nixon for commuting the sentences of nine inmates who committed murders after their releases and got the death penalty. Three of those inmates have since been executed. Nixon's accusations were the latest controversy in a heated race, and some analysts question whether his efforts will affect the election outcome. Nixon, Missouri's attorney general, said his latest salvo shows Bond is soft on crime. Otherwise, Bond wouldn't have commuted thousands of sentences in his two terms as governor, from 1973 to 1977 and from 1981 to 1985, Nixon said. State records for a two-year period show Bond commuted 2,000 sentences, according to Nixon's camp. But records show Democrats Joseph Teasdale and Warren Hearnes also routinely signed prison commutations while they were in office. Hearnes approved an estimated 4,000 commutations from 1969 to 1973, the last of his two terms as governor. Teasdale succeeded Bond's first term and served from 1977 to 1981. While state records are incomplete, they show Teasdale approved about 3,800 inmate commutations in his term. David Israelite, Bond's campaign manager, said it is significant that two Democrats signed large numbers of commutations, which are documents signed by the governor that allow prisoners to go free without supervision. ``Jay Nixon knew that the commutation process was something that all governors used, based on the advice of the board of parole, on a regular basis,'' Israelite said. ``The fact that the Democratic governor before and after Governor Bond used this process speaks volumes to Jay Nixon's mistruths,'' he said. Chuck Hatfield, Nixon's campaign manager, downplayed the Teasdale and Hearnes commutations. ``Warren Hearnes and Joe Teasdale are not running TV commercials saying they have zero tolerance for crime,'' Hatfield said. ``Kit Bond had the option to deny any single commutation,'' he said. ``Just because some other governor may have done it certainly doesn't excuse the decisions he made. '' Commutations dropped drastically under Bond's two successors, Republican John Ashcroft and Democrat Mel Carnahan, the current governor. Ashcroft commuted two sentences, Carnahan four, officials said. The drastic drop in commutations by governors of both parties stems from a change in state law in the late 1970s, said Gail Hughes, chief administrative officer for the state Board of Probation and Parole from 1965 to 1985. Before the new law took effect, Missouri prisoners were routinely released through the commutation process after they served a certain percentage of their sentence, said Hughes. Missouri lawmakers approved a new criminal code that took effect in 1979. It gave the parole board new authority to parole prisoners with some supervision, and essentially replaced the commutation process that had routinely involved the governor, Hughes said. Dick Moore, a Republican who served on the parole board from 1974 to 1985, also said the new law triggered the huge drop in commutations. ``That (commutations) was the ordinary procedure back when Bond was in his first term,'' Moore said. ``That was how they exited the system, through commutation. The law changed. '' Nixon contends Bond should be held accountable for killings committed by inmates whose sentences he commuted. Nixon campaign officials said Tuesday that one of the inmates freed by Bond, Winford Lavern Stokes, killed two more persons after his sentence was commuted but before his original sentence would have ended. On Monday, Teasdale disputed arguments that governors should be held accountable for crimes committed by prisoners they free. Hearnes said Tuesday that he generally followed recommendations of parole officials in approving most commutations, except in cases of statutory rape. ``I just didn't want to take a chance on them,'' Hearnes said. The Nixon camp hopes that the revelations about Bond's record on dangerous inmates will turn the tide of the race. Polls conducted for media outlets last month showed Bond held leads ranging from 16 to 23 points, and with President Clinton's troubles dominating the news lately, it has been difficult for Nixon to advance. Some political analysts think the race is all but over. Last week, the Bond campaign touted an article in the Cook Political Report, a Washington newsletter. The newsletter said, ``While Bond has not quite put this race away yet, he is very close. '' With less than a month to go before Election Day, Nixon clearly needs a major boost to get back into the race. The Democrat hopes the commutation story will prove to be exactly that. His campaign spent weeks researching the issue and plans a major television ad campaign to further publicize its findings. The first 30-second spot has begun airing in outstate Missouri and could appear on Kansas City stations as soon as today. The ad's theme: Bond's weak record on crime. ``Kit Bond is so soft on crime, he is the only Republican the Missouri deputies rejected,'' an announcer tells viewers, referring to 1998 endorsements by the Missouri Deputy Sheriffs Association. Bond responded Tuesday by releasing a list of county sheriffs and prosecutors who have endorsed him. ``Senator Bond has put his experience to work to get things done for law enforcement in Missouri,'' a media statement said. How effective Nixon's blitz will be remains to be seen. One Missouri political scientist predicted that Nixon's latest campaign would have little effect. Jim Davis, of Washington University in St. Louis, called the attacks ``old news'' because they are based on events of many years ago. ``I take it as an act of desperation as opposed to something that really will pull the race out for Nixon,'' he said. ``I don't think it's a home run. ''

Hearnes was a commutation machine! found some data on Hearnes! 4000 commutations '69-'73 Duane was just part of the masses? Caveat: Duane was '68. assuming similar rates then. Democrats released thousands of prisoners Records show that other... Published on Oct. 7, 1998, Page C1, The Kansas City Star Hearnes approved an estimated 4000 commutations from 1969 to 1973, ... Before the new law took effect, Missouri prisoners were routinely released through ...

There could be a story. I'm not sure why "trade" comes up though. Are there typical stories of "trades"..examples? I would think "trades" would be rare....in terms of the conspiracy sort of "information" trade. Now in terms of other "goodwill" maybe. A more likely thing would be some kind of family pull or something? Or a problem with the conviction to start with?. Duane's sentence was light to start with in MO for that one...just 4 years. Commuted to 2 years. (edit) Even though the crime was "Grand Stealing" I'm wondering if it was something trivial cause of the light sentence. I'm curious about how Duane's family seemed to have disowned him. I wonder how much "pull" they might have had or standing in the community. Maybe none.

I was really scratching my head when it was suggested that Duane's commutation had any meaning or suggested anything. Why? because no data on the rates of state commutations was presented. I found a paper outlining all the federal clemencies by presidents. There's a lot per president. Like >thousand for some. Did people realize that? (FDR: 3687, Nixon:926) (clemencies include commutations + pardons + ...) http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/pardonspres1.htm But at the state level, the data's harder to find. (edit) http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_08_11_04/huckabee8.html addresses Huckabee..showing state clemencies from '96-'04. MO: 69, OK: 178, AR: 703, LA: 213, MS: 24, TN: 32, TX: 98. Here's a specific example from Oregon '69-'74. And it's not including pardons. Seems like there were 77 commutations in OR over the period of '69 thru '74. This all makes me think state commutations are a lot more common than us non-prison-system-aware folk realize. We hear about clemency for murderers in the papers, but not the more mundane stuff (like Duane's). http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/governors/McCall/mccalllcclem.html 11. Commutations Granted, 1969-1974. 12. Commutation, Warren Anspaugh. 13. Commutation, Ernest Avery. 14. Commutation, Frank Baird. 15. Commutation, Melvin Bray. 16. Commutation, Hiram Campbell. 17. Commutation, Stephen Chochrek. 18. Commutation, Arthur Clawson. 19. Commutation, Charles Cornelius. 20. Commutation, Charles Dawson. 21. Commutation, Helen Drayton. 22. Commutation, Wendell DeLorme. 23. Commutation, Elmer Dixon. 24. Commutation, Edward Easter. 25. Commutation, Arnold Eaton. 26. Commutation, Thomas Elliott. 27. Commutation, Frank Erickson. 28. Commutation, Ben Fleischman. 29. Commutation, Lane Fletcher. 30. Commutation, Arden Foster. 31. Commutation, Jerome Foster. 32. Commutation, Thomas Gardner. 33. Commutation, Leroy George. 34-35. Commutation, Billy Glover. 36. Commutation, John Goodall. 37. Commutation, Gerald Guffey. 38. Commutation, Robert Gruver. 39. Commutation, Henry Hale 40. Commutation, Marvin Hamilton. 41. Commutation, Joseph Hard. 42. Commutation, Edward Harris. 43. Commutation, Dale Helmick. 44. Commutation, Jerry Hollingsworth. 45. Commutation, Kenneth Hovey. 46. Commutation, Arthur Huff. 47. Commutation, Ronald Jennings. 48. Commutation, Stanley Johnson. 49. Commutation, Michael Joseph. 50. Commutation, Tom Keffer. 51. Commutation, William Kent. 52. Commutation, Keith Lee. 53. Commutation, Gordon Little. 54. Commutation, Curtis Lockwood Box 3 1. Commutation, Albert Mario. 2. Commutation, Leroy McCauley. 3. Commutation, Ervin McDonald. 4. Commutation, Walter McNair. 5. Commutation, Robert Meyer. 6. Commutation, Thomas Moore. 7. Commutation, Lynne Nichols. 8. Commutation, Joseph O'Brien. 9. Commutation, Gene Oland. 10. Commutation, Rudolph Oliver. 11. Commutation, Verne Peterson. 12. Commutation, Dellmar Phillips. 13. Commutation, Robert Phipps. 14. Commutation, Stephen Pieroni. 15. Commutation, William Reeves. 16. Commutation, David Rhoten. 17. Commutation, Arnold Robbins. 18. Commutation, Stanley Rose. 19. Commutation, Mary Rowley. 20. Commutation, Marvin Ryan. 21. Commutation, Douglas Schelin. 22. Commutation, Wesley Sieckmann. 23. Commutation, David Skrelunas. 24. Commutation, Larry Slopak. 25. Commutation, Ernest Smith. 26. Commutation, Mark Smith. 27. Commutation, Wayne Stewart. 28. Commutation, Killes Teel. 29. Commutation, Tracy Thompson. 30. Commutation, Irene Van Kleeck. 31. Commutation, Van Wallach. 32. Commutation, Billy White. 33. Commutation, Peter Wiley. 34. Commutation, Albert Wilhelm. 35. Commutation, Eddie William. Most likely the commutation meant Duane was relatively benign as a criminal.

REPLY: Jo, can you tell me simply "why" you want Duane to have been Cooper? Georger I'm in the process of trying to get a 1971 NWA flight timetable so we can debate the flights and NWA's '71 stable of planes more intelligently. (I think DC-10, 707, 747, 727 at the time). I'm wondering if arguably the choice of 727 was random by Cooper (the whole stairs plan seems to have been created on the fly)...If we think he's Portland/WA local, 727 may have just been default. If we agree he's inexperienced jumper, why would he be intelligent about jet exit stairs vs door? Cini apparently wasn't (DC-8). The next Cooper wannabe wasn't (707). Wonder if this concept of Cooper "choosing" 727 is just myth. So then I thought, if I have an actual '71 flight timetable from NWA, and I have the FBI fingerprint card from Ckret for Duane...then I should be able to get the right technology to put a false set of Duane's prints on the '71 flight timetable. While difficult, I read somewhere that prints that old could still be lifted. Jo: what would that be worth? I would think a bunch.

looks cool! clicking thru stuff, saw a video of a guy going out on a jetski, with two guys holding on to it for stability...one guy standing on it...When they landed, the guy proudly bragged about the "first jetski skydive" ...and I couldn't help but think "WTF?" so, from the outside, sometimes there is that aspect of someone smashing a beer can on his forehead, and then yelling "of course the damn raincoat flapped" :)

Ah research.. rorschach test for the thread attached. -skydivers will be making estimates on the front passenger. -snowmman notices the back passenger is wearing sandals -georger says "see, Cooper could have survived Columbia landing" -377 says "I wonder if that would fit out the back stairs of a Martin 404?" -Jo says "Duane learned that in prison" -Sluggo says "Well they're obviously trained professionals"

I have a hard time finding any non-US/Canada parachute extortion hijacks. (excepting that Phillipines home-made parachute case) The first British domestic hijack (Jan 7?, 1975) was a parachute extortion but the guy was a nut. It was a BAC-111 which seemed perfect for the job...BAC-111's were involved in a number of the non-US hijacks, but not parachute jobs. It got me thinking that the 727 for Cooper could have just been an accidental choice. Maybe someone out there has more info. I suppose I don't have access to European newspaper archives. note to Jo: in the Brit hijack attached, a steward was bit by a police dog.

I got curious about NWA hijacks. according to: http://www.mnhs.org/library/findaids/00110.html NWA had these hijackings: July 1, 1968: To Cuba. Jan. 22, 1970: To Cuba Nov. 24, 1971: D. B. Cooper. Dec. 24, 1971: Minneapolis-Chicago flight. May 8, 1977: Tokyo-Honolulu flight. July 11, 1980: Seattle. The Dec. 24, 1971 hijacking is interesting. Just a month after Cooper, on christmas eve. It was a Cooper copycat attempt. But just a kid. And he couldn't even get the plane right (707, from another article) Attached news article. Another random factoid: Northwest participated in the Korean airlift. Flying DC-4 aircraft completed 1,380 round-trip trans-Pacific crossings. I also found a 1963 timetable for NWA. While it's a little old for '71, it has 305 on there, although it looks like it's not exactly the 305 that was there in '71. But it does point out a couple of things. There weren't a lot of flights from Portland to Seattle..they were part of longer flights from the East. And if you wanted an earlier flight, you had to grab the eastbound flights...which were WAY early in the morning. So Cooper may have not had much choice on the time, if he wanted to go portland to seattle. Also, they tended to list the planes on the timetables. This particular one didn't, but I've noticed others that seemed to list the exact plane. ne64-03 has 305 on it. Others for comparison. (west vs. east) (too large to attach) http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/nw63/nw63-01.jpg http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/nw63/nw63-03.jpg http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/nw63/nw63-04.jpg http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/nw63/nw63-06.jpg http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/nw63/nw63-07.jpg

I own three dogs and do a lot of dog training. I've taught one of them to ride a skateboard. I'd have a hard time believing someone on this thread is going to be able to shout me down about dogs. With respect to raincoats, there are a lot of issues. One, it was described as a topcoat at first right? I've looked at newspapers for the ads showing the styles being worn in '65-'71. There are a lot of questions. More tailored coats were coming into fashion? I wonder if it was a real raincoat...more likely would have been tan or sand or grey? if so... Single or Double breasted? Military collar? (wide) or narrow? button or zipper? belted? Many of these coats had the zip in fleece liner for winter. (edit) Specifically, I don't think we're talking about the "Columbo" style very-loose, raincoat. So we can bitch about the "raincoat" or "topcoat" but we're don't even know what kind of coat we're talking about. They were fitted in both chest size and length. No chest pockets. One common thing is that they came down to mid thigh. (edit) so that's a question. I'm assuming Cooper's was mid-thigh, but who knows? could have been longer. So the "blow up/inflate" argument does seem to make sense no matter what? Does anyone want me to post pictures of typical raincoats/topcoats for men from '65-'71? And Jo, throwing the rock at the dog was the worst thing you could do. Hopefully he'll bite you soon.

Thanks orange1. Yes I am clueless on the jump stuff. Sometimes I don't know where the opinions come from. I'm picturing a raincoat, buttoned or zipped, bunched up under a harness. If it's obvious it flaps, okay. Another topic. Paul Cini's attempt on 11/12/71. We've only talked about that briefly. I'm now thinking that the copycat theory for Cooper may be stronger than stated before. I've been reading a lot of '71 papers. Amazing amounts of violence. Vietnam, bombings in U.S. (I think 31 in WA in '71). Right wing groups like the Minutemen were being arrested in Seattle for planning bank robberies. Parachuting was novel. Pics of jump off 1000' ft bridge in CO, and parachuting Santas next to stories of hijacks. It was like all the elements of the crime were right there in the paper. So I got to thinking about the Cini attempt. What was important, if Cooper copycat'ed, was what was in the papers. news article attached from 11/13/71 All the elements are there. Dynamite, Ransom. Cini asked for $1.5 million. Got $50k. Cini details (trivia): He was 5'7". Dark curly hair. Swarthy complexion. Long black coat, apparently used to hide his shotgun. He apparently fired it once. Was going to jump from around 3k-4k ft? (didn't have chute on yet) Apparently wanted to go out an emergency exit window? Said he would blow the tail off if they didn't help? (edit) another article points out how Cini was messed up about flight path/fuel also. They flew to Great Falls, where he got the money. Then took off for Regina, Sask. where they were going to refuel for going to Ireland. But after takeoff, they returned to Great Falls, got 7000 gallons (not enough for Ireland), released the passengers...then took off first saying NY, then changed to Phoenix, then changed again to return to Calgary. orange1: I guess I'm reviewing the theory that Cooper was just an ordinary guy. No aviation/parachute skills. Just a natural progression of what was happening in the hijack world back then. (edit) added Cini family detail (edit) I just realized this copycat timeline 11/13/71 (papers) Paul Cini attempt 11/17/71 (papers) Arthur G. Barkley, the first US hijack that got ransom (in 1970), at trial is declared not guilty by reason of insanity. 11/23/71 (papers) Donald B. Irwin, commercial artist sentenced to psych hospital 12 1/2 yrs. for 1970 hijack attempt. (attached). He passed a note. 11/24/71 Cooper hijack

IF Cooper was wearing a raincoat, there is a real possibility that loose fabric could cause major problems. The chances of an obscured/blocked ripcord handle access go waaay up and a no pull becomes more likely. I can easily imagine a scenario in which a pull would be nearly impossible while tumbling wildly at night. Even if you had the presence of mind to try and uncover the ripcord handle, you have inadequate illumination to see the mess and visually figure out how to resolve it. Anything you do that favors one side (like using both hands to pull raincoat fabric away from the ripcord handle area) creates aerodynamic asymmetry and the tumbling/spinning only gets worse. 377 This is a very good explanation for me, 377. Thanks. I can imagine an experiment that might result in a significant percentage of deaths now. Possibly even with experienced jumpers. Jump with raincoat on under harness. At night, from 10k ft. Jet exit. rain/temp is probably not a big variable, so ignore that. In looking at the harness, I'm not clear on whether a raincoat would really flap as much as people say. (just not obvious to me). If this was the discovery channel, it'd be nice to have a bunch of novices in a raincoat with an nb-6 in a tunnel in the dark, seeing how many can find the rip, and how long it takes or if they can't find it. (if people call ckret about shows, have them do that! and maybe tie the money bag on while you're at it)

Jo, you got to stop doing this. This is the reason I always tell myself "don't feed Jo" I went and looked. Their names are listed under the photo at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:CPS31firecrew.jpg 1945. Left to right: Karl Unruh, Melvin Duerkson, Leo Harder, Melvin Flickenger and Max Miller. Yes you are seeing things. You have to think about how utterly improbable it would be for Duane to even be in that picture to start with. You gotta get a grip Jo. The US population in 1944 was 138,397,345 http://www.demographia.com/db-uspop1900.htm All those people had interesting lives and did interesting things and had raincoats and stuff. Did you see how small the number of CPS smokejumpers was? I only posted that stuff so you might be able to have a source for where you got your ideas or references about WWII smokejumper stories, and let it go. You were talking about whether you were delusional remembering some random story. I'm thinking the random story might have had some stray linkages...but the problem is you leap from those factoids, to the most crazy thoughts. At the very least, you should start to see that there were lots of people, doing interesting things, all over the place, besides Duane. (edit) on 2nd thought, maybe Jo's yanking my chain..if so she got me. (edit) also, I wasn't aware of the history of the "Triple Nickles" ..sorry if my ignorance offended anyone http://www.smokejumpers.com/history/the_triple_nickle.php

LaPoint was the last jumper that I hadn't posted a photo of. (attached) That completes photos of McCoy McNally LaPoint Heady Hahneman I think that's all the jumpers, including Cooper. 2) Another interesting case, which was apparently the first where the hijacker received money. was 1970, not a jumper. He was a nut job. Arthur G. Barkley, June 4, 1970 had a tax grudge ($471). Demanded $100 million. Apparently the first where they actually gave a hijacker money? They gave him $100,750 Not a jumper (note before Cooper) There's a picture of Barkley during the hijack that was taken by a passenger on the plane. Full article attached. (edit) Oddly enough, Barkley was on a 727. I guess shows how common they were. Time's account on 7/15/70 is at http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,909374,00.html really strange: quote from the wife afterwards. She was just as whacked: (she's talking about the IRS case he tried taking all the way to the Supreme Court. (also could example of grudge+money, as I've noted before) "They gave him a runaround," his wife said. "They wouldn't even listen to him. He did it [the hijacking] to draw attention to his cause. They are letting us sit here and starve to death." Two late-model Cadillacs, however, registered to the Barkleys, were parked outside the house even as she was speaking.

The OCR stuff in Google News apparently was able to recognize the text of the lettering in the bubbles. It won't be long before we're able to search for images that "look like" something. Or something that "sounds like" something. I had to look up Buz Sawyer in wikipedia. Didn't recognize it. I do remember Dondi though, as a kid.

Jo's mixture of blacks and smokejumpers and WWII and prison may be related to this. I suspect the books have pics I won't be able to get. Maybe this will trigger some memories/knowledge? There's a specific reference to black paratroops on a smoke jump at the bottom. During WWII, they gave conscientious objectors the option of prison or the Civilian Public Service. Wikipedia has details of the CPS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Public_Service What's more interesting, is that they apparently trained members of the CPS for smoke jumping. There is a whole book dedicated to this, available on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Smokejumpers-Civilian-Public-Service-World/dp/0786425334 I've attached a pic of the book. Since it's during the time Jo mentioned (WWII), and it shows that they "put" people into smokejumping that were prisoners of a sort, I'm going to explore this more. (edit) total # of CPS smokejumpers apparently only ~300? another book: http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780806137667-0 "This book tells the story of one important group of World War II conscientious objectors: the men who volunteered for Civilian Public Service as U.S. Forest Service smoke jumpers. Based in Missoula, Montana, the experimental smoke-jumping program began in 1939, but before the project could expand, the war effort drained available manpower. In 1942, the Civilian Public Service volunteers stepped in. Smoke jumping soon became the Forest Service's first line of defense against wildfires in the West." firsthand account here (missoula '44) http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=252&magazine_editions_id=17 "The Forest Service selected 60 men who reported for jumper training at Camp Paxson on Seeley Lake, about 60 miles north of Missoula. Most, perhaps all had fought forest fires from their base camps. After jumper training, the Forest Service stationed units at strategic spots throughout the area: Seeley Lake, Big Prairie, and Nine Mile in Montana; Moose Creek and McCall in Idaho; and Redwood Ranger Station (Cave Junction) in southern Oregon. The agency established headquarters for CPS 103, the smokejumper unit administered by the Mennonite Central Committee, in Huson, Mont. The 1943 unit proved so successful that, by 1944, the Forest Service doubled its request. My part in a mountain rescue while assigned to the Mammoth Lakes side camp of CPS 37 earned me a strong letter of recommendation from the ranger of that district. For that and other reasons, (I had fought a number of fires both at Buck Creek and Coleville CPS camps), the Forest Service chose me as one of the 60 new men to receive jumper training in 1944 at the new Nine Mile base near Huson. Evidently the Forest Service was happy with our work since in 1945 the agency requested additional men to bring camp strength to better than 200. Some CPS men served all three years. I spent two years as a smokejumper, with 20 jumps, 10 training and refresher over the airfield at Nine Mile, and 10 fire jumps into the Idaho wilderness." Another first person account (interview) that mentions blacks http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=261&magazine_editions_id=11 NOTE: Elmer Neufeld died Monday, June 18,2002 in Boise at age 80. He grew up in Inman, Kan. and was drafted into the Civilian Public Service as a Conscientious Objector during WWII. While at a CPS camp in 1943, he heard of the CPS-103 smokejumper unit that was being formed. Elmer was accepted in 1944 and joined the jumpers at Cave Junction, Ore. TELL ME ABOUT THE GUYS YOU JUMPED WITH? I jumped with a guy named Jack Larson (NCSB ’46)... on the Bunker Hill fire. This was the second Bunker Hill fire in ‘46. In ‘45 we had a Bunker Hill fire that went to three hundred acres. And that one had ten smokejumpers and 97 negro paratroopers on it. We had a big fire. The negro paratroopers did a whale of a job fightin’ fire, did a good job. But in ‘46 I jumped with Jack Larson. I thought he was pretty much indoctrinated with what was going on. He was a little bit behind me in experience. But anyway, we jumped on the ridge, got our chutes, our cargo dropped to us and he said, “Well, let’s go down the hill.” I said, “It’s not there, Jack, that won’t get to the fire.” We couldn’t see the fire from where we were. “Ya,” he said, “that’s the way we gotta go.” So down the hill we went. We missed the fire, I knew that already. So, I says, “Jack, you climb this tree and take a compass with you, place that fire and take a compass reading on it.” “Oh, there’s the fire over there. So we missed it.” “Yup,” I said, “damned if we didn’t.” So, after that there were very few people that doubted my direction. Because I have a direction... a direction instinct, that many people don’t have. It’s built in.

trivia digging: Finally found a photo of Martin Joseph McNally after he was caught (June 29, 1972). 28 years old at the time. Jump was June 22. Attached. Also, by '72 hijacks with parachute demands were so common, they appeared in the normal newspaper comic strip pages. Found one in "Buz Sawyer" next to "Dondi" (attached) I've covered McNally a lot before but here's some new comments from FBI Agent Neil Welch. Remember McNally was neither pilot nor jumper. Just high school graduate. "McNally planned everything except the blast of air (when he jumped)." Welch said. "We have reports that McNally has studied previous successful and unsuccessful hijackings. He as made studies of Boeing 727s to determine what speeds an individual can safely jump out" But then the article says" 'The jetliner was traveling at 320 miles per hour 10,000 feet above north central Indiana when the hijacker bailed out. McNally was described by authorities as a high school graduate and a veteran of the U.S. Navy. Welch said his family was known and is "substantial and established but not wealthy" ' (this reminded me of Heady) I've read other article that mentioned hijackers collecting newspaper clippings of previous hijackings, and the LE moaning about how they learned from prior hijacks. There are a lot more hijacks where they asked for parachutes, but didn't jump or were shot or arrested somehow. Not going to bother with those.

Cooper trivia: you're aware that someone soon after the Cooper thing, robbed a bank and apparently wrote "D.B. Cooper" on a deposit slip. They cleared him though. Arvid Julius Kiperts, of Portland, age 41. Questioned about 16 bank robberies. 2/9/73 thru 2/13/73 news articles. arrested for Oct 29 holdup in King City, OR. Dec 1971 bank robbery in Witsonville, south of Portland, was the Cooper related one. I always wonder when people say something like "Cooper may have been a bank robber".. I wonder how people know about bank robbers? Here's a good link with some data on bank robberies http://www.popcenter.org/problems/robbery_banks/print/ 2007 Q4 FBI stats: http://www.fbi.gov/publications/bcs/bcs2007/bank_crime_2007q4.htm Another thing I thought interesting, is that we talk about motives, but a nice report at the FBI site on solving serial murder crimes, points out that it can be a waste of time. I think the same for something like the Cooper case. It was interesting, that even today, the FBI has to deal with the issue of "myths" around serial murderers. nice report: http://www.fbi.gov/publications/serial_murder.pdf You're also aware that Paul Cini did a parachute attempt (apparently) 2 weeks before Cooper. He was in a DC-8 though. Bad choice, right? I guess he was kind of an idiot though.

This was the court case where northwest was trying to collect on their insurance policy for the ransom. I snipped details of the money delivery. For instance, I've not seen Grinnell's name mentioned before. See below for his role. Also, I guess by 1975, Tina's last name was Larson already? Here, Lee's name is given as Elwood M. Lee. 225 N.W.2d 831 303 Minn. 16 NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC., Respondent, v. GLOBE INDEMNITY COMPANY, Appellant. No. 44904. Supreme Court of Minnesota. Jan. 24, 1975. Plaintiff's Seattle ground personnel were notified of the hijacking and, further, received home office authorization to procure the money and parachutes demanded by Cooper. In order to obtain the $200,000 in cash, arrangements were made with Seattle First National Bank, through its airport branch. The money was taken from the vault of the bank's downtown facility, and transported to the airport by bank personnel and the Seattle police. The release of cash funds after normal banking hours resulted in a debit to plaintiff's account which was repaid by a transfer credit on the next banking day. Mr. William C. Grinnell, an officer of Seattle First National Bank, arrived at the Seattle airport at approximately 5 p.m. with the money. He first proceeded to the airport branch of the bank to pick up the branch manager, who then accompanied Mr. Grinnell to plaintiff's air freight terminal, a 'premises' of plaintiff insured within the meaning of the subject insurance policy. An authorized official of plaintiff gave a receipt for the $200,000 while it was Inside the terminal. Mr. Grinnell transferred possession of the $200,000 to Captain Elwood M. Lee, a Northwest [303 Minn. 19] official designated to transport the money to the hijacked airplane, which had landed at the Seattle airport and was parked at the end of a runway. Captain Lee proceeded to the airplane in an automobile and delivered the money to Stewardess Tina Larson, who carried the money into the airplane and surrendered direct physical custody of it to the hijacker. Upon receipt thereof, Cooper allowed the passengers to leave the airplane. Stewardess Larson also delivered the parachutes and other items to Cooper, who was still in the rear cabin of the aircraft. At that time, he allowed two other stewardesses to leave the airplane. Cooper, Stewardess Larson, and the cockpit crew of three men remained on board.

This is interesting, Ckret. Is there anything on "what" magazine or magazines? I'm wondering if there's anything there that might be interesting. Even to the detail of what pages the fingerprints were on...Just random thru the magazine, or did some kind of article/writing catch his eye? Seems odd if there were multiple magazines. Be surprised if he had time to look at more than 1 magazine. So I guess what you're really saying is you have prints that don't match any of the passengers/crew, from the magazines. There must be testimony from someone else that connects Cooper to the magazines, otherwise it would be likely to just be from other flights? or ???. Did the FBI get prints from any passengers on 305 that deplaned before Portland (it started on the East coast, as we've noted) I'm wondering what data says the magazine prints are likely to include Cooper's. Thanks if you can flesh this out.

Yes, georger, you're following the rational thought process that I would expect. Now: count out the ways the investigation was skewed because it was a 727. 1) this CIA/727/Vietnam mythology. (there was no CIA/DC-9/Vietnam mythology.) 2) Boeing is in WA. Boeing/WA aviation had layoffs. Hijackers tended to be unemployed. The hijack was in WA. Therefore Cooper must be WA aviation engineer, even though he apparently thought seeing Tacoma from the air was quite novel. The data suggesting Cooper was WA local, or aviation industry person, is extremely weak? Douglas manufactured in CA? (not sure). In any case, if it was DC-9, the investigation would have skewed differently. So if it being a 727 skewed the investigation we have to ask: was the skew correct, or absolutely bogus? Like here's another myth: people still think that the 727 was the only plane with ventral stair at the time. It may have been more common, or the stairs used more. But I think the mythology has been accepted that no other jet was possible, therefore reinforcing the weak hypothesis that Cooper knew something about 727s.

If the first successful jump had been from a DC-9 rather than a 727, would the investigation be any different? If so, why? (you saw that one of the later successful jumps was from a DC-9, right?) Attached is a pic of the ventral stairs on a MD-88 (DC-9-88) . It's hard to find stair pics for the non-727 cases. Trivia question: list the planes (worldwide) that had ventral stairs and were flying in '71.

I know we have a hard time letting go of myths like the CIA/727/vietnam airdrop myth, even if there are no supporting facts. But on the plus side, I was finally able to shoot down the following myth. I got a call in to Plant and Page, and they denied it. I investigated this when wondering about what kind of music Cooper would listen to. The myth: Led Zeppelin IV was released on November 8, 1971, which includes their epic "Stairway To Heaven". At the time, it was mistakenly thought that playing it backwards revealed satanic messages. In fact, the song is a message for Cooper, giving him the final details and go ahead for the hijack, which happened just over 2 weeks later. The album has no title, and was sometimes referred to by the title "Man With Sticks" as a reference to Cooper with dynamite sticks. The album cover has a painting of an old man (Cooper) with sticks (dynamite). Analysis of the lyrics: There's a lady who's sure (reference to the leader of the cell, who is a woman) All that glitters is gold (she wants the money) And she's buying a stairway to heaven. (reference to the aft stairs, and jumping in flight) When she gets there she knows If the stores are all closed (reference to the 5:00 pm deadline) With a word she can get what she came for. (the demands for the ransom) Ooh, ooh, and she's buying a stairway to heaven. Theres a sign on the wall (reference to the sign for the aft stair operation) But she wants to be sure cause you know sometimes words have two meanings. (self-reference to the song referring to the hijack, but also to stair operation) In a tree by the brook (the planned landing spot for Cooper) Theres a songbird who sings, (the signal for Cooper after landing) Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven. (telling Cooper not to worry) Ooh, it makes me wonder, Ooh, it makes me wonder. Theres a feeling I get When I look to the west, And my spirit is crying for leaving. (warning to not let them take the coast flight path when 305 leaves SEATAC) In my thoughts I have seen Rings of smoke through the trees, (warning that planes will be searching for Cooper) And the voices of those who standing looking. (warning about searchers on the ground) Ooh, it makes me wonder, Ooh, it really makes me wonder. And its whispered that soon If we all call the tune (Telling Cooper to give the call signal after landing) Then the piper will lead us to reason. (follow the response signal after landing) And a new day will dawn (you'll be okay by the next morning) For those who stand long And the forests will echo with laughter. (the forest where Cooper lands. everything will be okay) If theres a bustle in your hedgerow (this reference to bustle is a dress bustle, it refers to "in case you get a seat pack chute") Dont be alarmed now, (don't worry if so, it's just a feint, don't use it) Its just a spring clean for the may queen. (don't worry if you see any police, they're paid off) Yes, there are two paths you can go by (detailed explanation of the escape path) But in the long run Theres still time to change the road you're on. (if you take the wrong road, it's still okay, there's plenty of time to make Portland for the pickup) And it makes me wonder. Your head is humming and it won't go (the drugs Cooper will take beforehand will cause some side effects) In case you don't know, The pipers calling you to join him, (don't give in to any hallucinations) Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow, (caution/heads-up about the wind on the stairs) And did you know Your stairway lies on the whispering wind. (encouragement for Cooper to jump off the aft stairs) And as we wind on down the road (while on the flight) Our shadows taller than our soul. (reference to the half moon casting shadows) There walks a lady we all know (reference to the leader of the cell again, the woman) Who shines white light and wants to show (this is the light signal Cooper should look for, as the spot) How everything still turns to gold. And if you listen very hard The tune will come to you at last. (telling Cooper to use the radio device to detect the BTG Vortac signal) When all are one and one is all (reminding him the organization is fully behind him. "one is all" is "1isawl" which is Lisa W. L. the leader of the cell/organization) To be a rock and not to roll. (reminder to free-fall for a while before deploying) And she's buying a stairway to heaven. (reminder that Cooper is also going to get a cut of the ransom)

:) Sluggo can be funny too! Hey Jo, if you weren't making a joke, then you should muse on your inability to make critical decisions on information presented to you, and how that might apply to other decisions you make, when confronted with information. Seriously. Hey that story about the Hughes 500P really does appear to be true. I highly doubt they got the wiretaps to work though...seems just too hard. But who knows. I guess my point is that Vietnam is far enough away that we can be reasonably confident most info is now available. Back in the thread, I posted detailed research that had been done on the exact 727s Air America bought and where they ended up. We talked about other airdrops that CIA actually did do, with other planes. My point: when you look at everything, we should bin "727 airdrops in Vietnam" as myth. I referenced the Boeing history book where apparently the guys at Air America asked Boeing about air drops before their purchase (I've not read that book, so that's secondhand). All in all, it's important to think about how the FBI may have been operating under some myths at the time. Also: that Norjak was part of the mythology process. Sluggo knocks news articles a bunch, but note the FBI is imperfect also. (edit) And I'm really curious about money fragments 3 feet under the sand. That was in news reports (and Norjak, as posted.) But the dig site was so chaotic (I posted the later photos of backhoe at the site) that maybe fragments just "fell" into a deeper hole? Who knows.

Hi Jo, there's been some related concern you may have found out what info Kissinger got from the Vinh wiretaps. http://www.vhpa.org/stories/AAblack.pdf Hey 377, if you've not already aware of this story, it's really interesting. Apparently all true? (I've found multiple confirmations). Note the FLIR stuff and SU-50's. Jo: I've decided that the people who think they're being nice to you, are actually the opposite, in terms of what's good. That's my rationale, right or wrong. (edit) I love the mention that that the SU-50's need 1/4 to 1/2 moon to work. A real 305 psychotic will remember the phase of the moon on 11/24/71 :) See 377! JOKE!