snowmman

It could be interesting to have this just be a "Duane Weber: is or not is D.B. Cooper". I'm up for it. Although maybe the title should be changed for new readers? Jo, I've searched extensively. Both E. Howard Hunt and MM-T1 ( Gerald Patrick Hemming )have consistently, on the record, not implicated Duane Weber in the Cooper episode. That doesn't rule out Duane's involvement in other "shows", though. I also believe it's reasonably certain that MM-T1's death on 1/29/08 had nothing to do with the recent reopening of the Cooper investigation. If there are any doubts about the above two statements, I could research some more, but need more direction. Other theories? (edit) I cannot comment on the reports of MM-T1's wearing of U.S. paratrooper wings.

georger: ignore anything I may have said about parachutes long ago. That was before I found this site, and the only info I had was from reading the recent news articles in april this year about nb-6. as people have pointed out here, and actually news articles from '71 confirm, the nb-6 cooper got apparently had a 28 ft canopy (look back in the archives to see all the going back and forth on this) I was just guessing about reserves. I know nothing about them. I'm not sure if I've ever seen any one here say definitively what their guess on the reserve canopies were...I was making a guess way back when. Oh ps: I found some '71 articles where they were talking about the search, and they mentioned that the searchers had been told to also be on the lookout for pieces of the pink canopy that was left on board...i.e. implying that the canopy was cut as well as the lines. That doesn't square with what Ckret has told us though..i.e. only lines cut. (edit) the other fuzziness that I was trying to understand at the time of the stuff you quoted from me (I think another forum?) was who packed what. As we now seem to agree, Cossey packed them all, right?

This may be a dumb question, but is there ANYTHING regarding the found money that would indicate whether it impacted at terminal velocity or came down under an open canopy? I cannot think of anything other than a high force impact puncture through a stack of bills and that was not found. If such an indicator did exist it probably could not distinguish between the money coming loose during the jump or staying with Cooper under an open canopy. I am just trying to see if there is any possibility that the money could tell us whether Cooper went in undeployed. Georger, Snowmman, Sluggo? What about blood stains - from what people have said about bounces I imagine it would not be hard to get at least some samples onto the money - could the rust stains be blood? The last time we talked about the money and the bag and tie on, I thought the consensus was that it was likely the bag separated from cooper? A separated bag would have a different terminal velocity? I think I used the example of McNally's money bag landing without exploding (evidently, because of how it was found)...to surmise that maybe Cooper's bag wouldn't explode (Although McNally's was not a open-necked bank bag). I don't think we agreed on terminal velocity of a 21 lb money bag?

hmm...and Ckret told me you were discreet...:) Good going Jo. Yeah that's pretty weird. Maybe it reinforces the commonness of "Dan Cooper" and we shouldn't read anything into the choice of alias. Although LaPoint who dressed up in cowboy boots and western shirt, used the alias "John Shane". (remember the book "Shane") I think when Ckret puts the grab on Cooper, he should ride a horse ...and it's gotta be in a saloon.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFquzxwYoeE (the kid with the dog is me searching in the graveyard for Sluggo) I love the dialog. Better than Point Break.

So what's weird is that evidently there's a collector's subculture that collects old flight timetables. I found a northwest orient "system timetable" on ebay. Date "effective august 1, 1971" So it should be pretty good for seeing what Cooper may have saw, if he did any planning from a timetable. Attached the front from the ebay auction. It'll be probably take a while for the guy to ship it to me. Cost me $8+shipping. Am I putting out or what? :) I had to wait 6 days hoping none of you guys would shill bid it up, just to jerk my chain. Be interesting to see what's in it. I suppose it would be possible to get "all" the airlines that were at PDX in '71. What other airlines went PDX to SeaTac in '71? Hey that Ingram bill that was sold to the teacher in OK a long time ago (like around '86) that was on ebay, that I mentioned? It finally sold for $2706 Interestingly, it was one of the bills that showed a face in the 12 bundles in the green table b/w photos. (serial number match)....that in itself makes it more interesting...probably would have been a good bill to analyze for that reason. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=300239738338

Good observation.. the "yes I know" response is very common in children of a certain age, but also of adults who don't like to be perceived as knowing less than they think they are supposed to. Then again, maybe he just did know it all... which would suggest a recce of some sort. Still, when you point out, and respond: I'm not quite sure how that conclusion follows (do I read right that it was Tosaw's conclusion, not yours) - or have I missed something along the way that indicated he wanted to be sitting at the oxygen? (he had after all asked for the plane to be flown depressurized which should preclude need for oxygen) Hi orange1. Per the conclusion: Tosaw reported it as a FBI speculation. Unclear if they really did conclude that. Tosaw tied it all in (a prior run, wanting a back seat, finding out about oxygen on prior run? etc) as maybe helping to explain why Coop ended up doing it on thanksgiving eve. But that's just more random speculation. (edit) orange1: on the "yes I know", you're remembering what ckret said about the parachute instructions, right? same thing, if I recall. Yes it's all very confusing. Ckret confirmed a conversation about oxygen, but with little detail about how such a conversation started. Tosaw's account seems to make sense, but Sluggo somehow throws a fit in worrying about "obstruction" when I report other accounts. I'm not sure if Sluggo is talking about his mind, or worrying about the mind of others. Sluggo: I don't think you have to worry about others? I document the source always. More data is good data, as long as source-documented. Hey there's a new youtube video a guy put up (the guy who did the morph for Sluggo I think)...he has a link to Sluggo's site in the info, with kudos about how great a site it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGkhZ6D4gUY (just noticed that he has some errors. Mentions a knapsack) Hey quade: I drive a 2004 R32. crashed my prior '95 V6 GTI.

(attached) "We permit no hippies in the bureau. I can guarantee that." ... "Mr. Chairman, I have a philosophy. You are honored by your friends and you are distinguished by your enemies. I have been very distinguished" ... While Hoover was remarking about a drop in campus turmoil, Rooney asked if any gay activists were allowed in the FBI. Hoover replied: "We don't allow any types of activists in the FBI, gay or other wise" Funny. Makes me think Cooper really didn't have to be all that bright to evade the FBI in '71? When we characterize the hunter and the hunted in '71, I think sometimes we don't really have a good feel for the realities of what was going on in the FBI in '71 (I think only '71 thru '72 really mattered for the Cooper search).

from my prior post: "After the pressure bump, Tosaw says the flaps were put back to 15 degrees (from 30) and speed went back up to 195 mph. Remember he said 167 mph at 30 degrees." remember the 30 degree flaps are no longer a question. Confirmed by the 2nd FBI transcript released. But we don't know the time of the 30->15 transition. Note this flap transition might be occurring right around the point where Sluggo argued that there was a lot going on in the cockpit in changing frequencies around the BTG vortac. The late, big turn is at 20:14 or 20:15, depending on whether you think there is the minute error in the flight path map we have. Wondering if this turn coincided with the 30 to 15 flap adjustment time.

Georger asked this question. Ckret previously told us "Tina told Cooper that they may need oxygen flying at 10,000 feet and she started to tell him where the supplemental tanks could be found. Cooper stated, "I know where they are. " What's interesting, is that Tosaw provides more detail on this exchange. But as Ckret has implied before, maybe Tosaw is trying to fill in the blanks. But the sentence choices seem to imply additional information. But the agents had another reason for believing that Cooper had taken the same flight before (ed. besides the Tacoma comment). Tina had said at the debriefing in Reno that while they were circling above Seattle, the subject of the overhead compartment came up. She told Cooper that the compartment directly over their heads was filled with oxygen bottles, and he replied, "Yes, I know." Since not every 727 carried oxygen bottles in that same compartment and since no one had seen him open it and look inside, Tina concluded that he must have found out about it prior to that flight" Goes on to suggest he probably had boarded the flight before, and aborted the hijack when he couldn't get the seating he wanted. Just speculation. Maybe Cooper just said "Yes I know" to everything.

Just noticed this: "Inside the 727 there were cameras trained on the needles of the pressure gauges. Soderlind brought the plane to the same altitude and speed of the hijacked plane at the 8:13 time" If Ckret could find those photographs, the plane folk here might have some good data...since we've been discussing those gauges. Pictures of them during the drop test would be cool. I also note that Soderlind and Manning are referenced as feeling the pressure bump in their ears. But they weren't on 305. It doesn't say Anderson felt it. It'd be interesting to read the report that quotes what Anderson said. I'm not even sure he was on the flight. It says Soderlind "was able to obtain the services of the same flight engineer, Harold Anderson" I think they may have made up their interpretation of the pressure bump? We really need the full report of the test drop.

CAVEAT: I'm giving Tosaw's account here. It seems a little out of sync with the transcripts we've already digested. Tosaw got a lot from Soderlind (evidently) ...so maybe is Soderlind's account? Tosaw may have gotten 8:13 from the newspapers...but where did he get all the drop test info? I would think he consistently got both bits of info from Soderlind. Okay I'm checking the book. New fact: page 56 Soderlind flew N467US on the flight with the drop test (with Manning, Anderson and the two guys on the stairs). They took off from SeaTac...They used the US Navy bombing range on the WA coast at Hoquiam. The wooden box was filled with sand. Total 220 lbs. They mention the 8:13 time when describing the test drop re-enactment. Manning, the FBI guy that headed up the search, was on the flight also. Here's what's critical. I'll copy the paragraph exactly: page 57 The pilot in the plane following saw the ladder spring upwards, almost touching the fuselage - like a diving board it sprang up, almost back to its closed position. Soderlind and Manning felt the sudden burst of pressure against their ears and the gauges verified the sudden burst of pressure. It was exactly the same experience reported by the hijacked crew at 8:13 So as Ckret says, it sounds like the mistake is that the flight test confirmed the pressure bump, and they assumed that was the oscillations reported by the crew. But the oscillations were reported before 8:13? So did the crew really report the bump at 8:13? I guess it's kind of fuzzy...we've been thru this all before, in deciphering the transcripts. It seems like it was all because they thought the stairs were open at 8:04. As we've discussed, they probably weren't? Tosaw reports Cooper's last communication saying everything's ok at (edit) between 8:04 and 8:10 which may have fed a belief that the stairs were fully open before the event at 8:13 (edit) in re-reading Tosaw doesn't give the exact time of Cooper's last communication. seems to be between 8:04 and 8:10 (edit) A 3rd re-read tells me the crew initiated their communication attempts after the 8:04 events. It took a while to get a response. So this would square with the 8:05 "last comm" reports we have?... They repeated the test a 2nd time and got the same result. So here's what's interesting. Someone immediately, by 11/26/71 told newspapers "jump at 8:13" and the work the FBI did later, was just used to say "yes we were right"...it had no effect on their jump time estimate? (by Mar '72 the 8:13 seems to have been moved up slightly..maybe based on transcript analysis) on page 35 is where tosaw talks about the last communication with Cooper and that before that at 8:04 the crew felt a slight movement, with the sound of the engines being louder, and a panel lite, which made them think Cooper had finally gotten the stairs open. on page 35, is where Tosaw says the crew felt the burst of pressure in their ears at 8:13, and Rataczak says "there he goes" But then he also says "and they all saw the needles reacting on the pressure gauges" At 8:10, Tosaw says "outside the plane it was 22 deg. The wind was from the southwest at 45 mph and the weather bureau reported on the ground it was 40 deg. with southwest winds at 15 mph" After the pressure bump, Tosaw says the flaps were put back to 15 degrees (from 30) and speed went back up to 195 mph. Remember he said 167 mph at 30 degrees.

just noticed there's been a hijacking in progress the last 8 hours or so (google news). maybe we shut up till it's over.

Isn't the biggest risk when hiding bodies, guns, dope, evidence is someone seeing you go to and fro to the hiding spot, or disturbing something that someone notices, or leaving some clue that makes people say "what the hell are all those muddy footprints about" which is why people go places where people don't ordinarily go? If there are fresh graves, that usually means there are people there like every day that might notice something odd...(visitors, caretakers). I can't see Cooper brainstorming about how great your cemetery plan would be, in the context of everything that would have to happen for that to work out. Hell, a better plan, just looking at your map, is stuffing the chute back in the pack...loading in some rocks, and throwing it into a water-filled quarry pit. But he's not going to be walking far to hide shit. If he has transportation: heck keep it with him and deposit elsewhere...the money will be bad enough evidence if the car is stopped. I just can't see your scenario making sense.

Sluggo: I think you're operating under the myth that there was extensive searching. There obviously was by the Third Armored Cavalry up by Ariel. (4 months later on) But FBI didn't really have manpower right? So the only help they had initially were police. I think the police gave up focusing on it by 11/30/71..i.e. after just 5 days. attached article. (it also includes a photo of the note received in Reno but we all know that's bogus) I suspect all that happened was the police drove around, checked out phoned in tips, and H. did the helicopter/plane overflights. Suspect no ground searches. I suspect they didn't search the Columbia.

wow...I've been looking at the little crumbs georger gave about his "client" that talked about project skyhook and parachuting. Any of you whackos out there that track UFOs as well as JFK assassination plots should have had light bulbs going off: WS-119L WS-461L Finally: we have a Roswell connection on this thread! The weird thing, is the georger mixed up a lot of things that don't seem to go together...like the recovery by plane. As far as I can tell, those recoveries were always unmanned payloads. Now if georger was talking to people who were in the pre-astronaut program, parachuting from the balloons derived from Project Skyhook. (the camera recon stuff)...then it's probably a pretty short list of names for the possible client. It ain't Attinger. It probably was connected to Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio? Possible names George Post Harry Collins But that all was in late '50s...so georger probably was just looking at someone's resume that included this stuff from the late '50s? Or maybe georger was just bullshitting us? The book "The Pre-Astronauts" has a lot of pages searchable on Google. http://books.google.com/books?id=1QS38bu9iTwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22The+Pre-Astronauts%22&sig=ACfU3U3H61sTQgFq8V288U_kS5Ud0dpOhg

377: Current policy seems to be that tapes around hijacks are only required by the FAA to be retained for 3 years. It does say a release is required though after 3 years to return tapes to service. Not sure what policy was in play in 1971...maybe none? see page 89 of http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/at_orders/media/Basic7210.3V.pdf It mentions "System Safety and Procedures" as an FAA group to contact for the release? they might be the right contact for historical hijack tapes? Not sure if that's a real group though. Also: A great document for FAA history is the FAA Historical Chronology 1926-1996. http://www.faa.gov/about/media/b-chron.pdf It has good data on what type of hijacking occured when. (download it (big) and search using "hijacking" in adobe reader) Interestingly it perpetuates the myth that Cooper was the first in a series of extortion hijacks (he wasn't) (page 162). One interesting thing I found had to do with various agreements over time, as to who has jurisdiction depending on where the plane is during a hijacking (ground, air etc). It varies between pilot, FAA and FBI. During the time of the Cooper hijack, the existing agreement was that FBI had jurisdication while the plane was on the ground, with pilot at all other times, although FAA recommendations to him took precedence. This changed in '74, to give the FAA jurisdiction from the time the doors closed, to the first door open for disembarking. They did agree that all parties would work together. An agreement in Dec. '71 gave the pilot the responsibility for signaling whether the plane should be disabled or stormed. So Cooper's hijack was during a period where they had not yet fully settled on procedural details of handling a hijack. (page 152) I've seen some hijack reports where the hijacker passed the note before the plane took off. FBI would have jurisdiction at that time, so while I initially thought it would be a good plan (get chutes/money as soon as possible)...it's obviously a bad plan because the FBI get to decide what to do...So Cooper's plan of staying in the air until everything's ready on the ground, was really a great idea.

I've scanned newspapers from 11/25/71 to 11/30/71 again, and the quote that the 727 was the only commercial airliner that you could safely jump from, came from a Boeing spokesman. Apparently this was John Wheeler. Makes sense. He was thinking about just Boeing planes, apparently. I think it fed the public consciousness of "meticulously planned". Just like the idea that it was the first US extortion attempt. (It wasn't). I also noticed that an estimated bailout time of 8:13 was already reported on 11/26/71...with a quote saying it was based on slight changes in altitude from the flight recorder. (edit) don't know if this was really the oscillations, or not. This made them concentrate search around Woodland. So they seemed to have gotten stuck on a bailout time very quickly. The drop test wasn't till next year, and it didn't modify the estimated bailout time? Also interesting is that 11/26/71, some initially reported Cooper's demands as 10,000 ft, wheels down and flaps down. They didn't note the degree of flaps. But then some reported the 15 degree thing. (edit) I found one article where on 11/26/71 they used the phrase "one of the few commercial aircraft models with an exit under its extreme rear, under the tail" So maybe it was also some bad reporting or someone misheard Wheeler. In any case, some news articles started reporting that the 727 was the only one safely possible.

good one happythoughts. I always wondered about the description of the hijacker on the ground. The news articles had said he was hard to find because there was just one hand sticking out of the ground. I didn't realize it was mud, so maybe that explains it. I also didn't realize they helped push him out. (edit) I also didn't realize it was a side door exit. that's amazing. (well not so amazing if you're just nuts). How did they get the door open? Do they open in?

I'm confused Sluggo. On the one hand, you say you've read everything, but you seem to not have read my posts about the successful jump from a DC-9 (LaPoint 1/20/1972). You don't believe the myth that 727 was "the only one possible" right? I had even posted the news article... The myth is especially broken when we include non-US, like the BAC-111 (also posted pic of that). I posted the MD-88 rear stairway photo because my understanding is that the MD- series was derived from the DC-9? (which is why they were sometimes called DC-9-88 or whatever?...although I'm guessing a little there). I couldn't find an actual DC-9 ventral stair photo. Did people not believe the DC-9 story or ??? (edit) I'm exploring that. Which is why I posted the likely stable of planes Northwest had in 1971. I'll know more when I get my 1971 timetable. And you saw the people with apparent parachute plans that were on 707's and DC-8's right? How do you explain that? (they're the opposite: bad choices). Just because most future successful jumps mirrored the 727 choice, doesn't mean the first 727 choice was planned.

Thanks for the replies guys. As I'm sure you understand, I'm just trying to stir our collective thinking on this stuff. Anytime we're stuck in a set of assumptions, it's good to revisit "why are we thinking this way?". I've also been playing with the idea of why the Cooper story stuck in the American subconscious and how that affects the way we think about "facts". 1) In my view, jet airplane technology is inherently unsafe technology. I'm intrigued by how unsafe technologies get embraced by societies. Cars, computers etc. It's a combination of individual embrace and passions, plus economics: corporations pursuing profit. (edit) also military connection in jet case. A lot of elements/desires/passions come together, and millions are spent trying to make the unsafe technology safe. There's no good or bad judgment, it's just what we humans do. (Cooper exploited an unsafe aspect) Jet airliners were relatively new technology in 1971. So there's a technology aspect to the Cooper story. Parachutes, while an older technology, were coming into a broader public exposure in the '70s also. So that's another technology contribution. 2) There has to be an everyman aspect to it. The average Joe Blow has to be able to conceive of pulling it off. 3) Money makes "motivation" simple, something everyone can relate to. 4) Drama. It has to be have a dramatic aspect, that exposes a weakness in the everyday interactions of people and maybe societies. My bias is that the drama is not in the act of stepping off the stairway into the night, but of combining all of the above aspects, whether by chance or plan, in the context of the 1971 stew. 5) (edit) The inherent violence has to be indirect..i.e. deniable. (for the common man embrace aspect). So in the grand tradition of Rod Serling narratives, I've modified my previous shuttle hijack story. The shuttle is most vulnerable to hijack when it's being transported on the back of a 747. So the story is that it's hijacked then. And where is it flown to: North Korea of course, who in their paranoia is convinced it's an attack and immediately threatens to launch a nuclear device. And that's the standoff. The demand is for a $1 billion ransom, as the 747 inches closer and closer to North Korea. With NK threatening to launch. The FBI, convinced they can track the transfer of such a large sum, okays it. But the second part of the plan is that computer/banking technology is exploited, so that it is possible, for the first time, to wire transfer $1 billion and get away with it. Combine that with not getting caught, and it's a modern day Cooper story. (edit) almost forgot: the escape from the 747 is by parachute in the Pacific, landing on an atoll somewhere.

Hi Orange1. Not really serious about Serling. But note: I played it straight. All details are true. I got into looking at it when we were talking about psychological motivation. I happened on the letter the FAA sent out in 1971 about "The Doomsday Flight" and just followed the Serling angle for fun. Interesting how he has jump experience, an interesting facial sort-of match, the suit/tie. etc. I was thinking about things that might have motivated skyjackers in 1971...movies, tv, newspapers. What it shows is that it's relatively easy to cherry pick from the details of a person's life, and make them "fit" Cooper. The "goodness of fit" is more a reflection of people's biases, I think. I found another hijack ransom attempt in 1971 (attached) also. The guy was a nut..but NYC motorcycle cop. I laughed to myself because I've read the myth that Cooper was the first US extortion hijack. He wasn't. I do have two questions: 1) Why do people think the 727 choice wasn't just coincidence? (what data?) 2) Why do people think Cooper's motivations were any different than the other hijackers? He could have been a slight nutcase. (edit) added article about "The Doomsday Flight" from 8/10/71 (edit) I've talked about odd juxtapositions in newspapers before. "The Doomsday Flight" and a real hijack extortion are juxtapositioned here on the same page 5/30/71 (attached)

The references for all this are online, or noted inline. * Rod Serling (December 25, 1924-June 28, 1975, so 46 in 1971), one of television's most prolific writers, is best known for his science fiction television series, The Twilight Zone. He believed that the role of the writer was to "menace the public conscience." Throughout his life Serling used radio, television, and film as "vehicles of social criticism." * Joined the United States Army on January 16th, 1943 * Was a paratrooper and served in the 511th Parachute Infantry Regiment in the Pacific theater * Demolition specialist. Removed thousands of pounds of dynamite from elaborate underground tunnels constructed by the Japanese * Returned home from active duty January 13th, 1946 with the following decorations: o Purple Heart o Asiatic Pacific Theater Medal [w/battle star] o Philippines Liberation Medal [w/battle star] o American Campaign Medal o National Defense Medal o Overseas Service Bar * After WWII, he tested experimental parachutes for the U.S. Army at $500 per jump A life-long chain smoker, Serling often smoked as many as five or more packs of cigarettes a day In 1975, Serling had two severe heart attacks before entering Strong Memorial Hospital in Rochester for heart bypass surgery. He had a third heart attack during the operation and died the following day, at the age of 50 Wrote the script for "The Doomsday Flight", a 1966 TV movie. A bomb on board an airliner has an altitude-sensitive trigger. Unless a ransom is paid, it will explode when the plane descends to land. The FAA wrote a letter to 500 TV stations on June 30, 1971 urging them not to show the movie, because they were getting people doing copycats of it, every time it was shown. For instance it was shown in Canada on July 26, 1971, and on Aug 3. a British 747 was diverted to Denver from it's Montreal/London flight, due to a phone-in bomb threat. No bomb was found. As part of research for a drama on NBCs "Chrysler Theater", Serling jumped again after 19 years, in April, 1964 (static line jump). Script initially called "A Certain Sky Revisited". Shown as "Exit From a Plane Flight". Storyline: Ex-paratrooper Quinton Morrow, now a movie star, returns to an Army base to make a parachute jump for publicity. First aired Jan 22, 1965. On November 18, 1971, Rod Serling gave a talk at Chaffey College, in Alta Loma, CA. This was 6 days before the Cooper hijack. Serling spoke out against the Vietnam War. In 1968, Serling, was a member of Dissenting Democrats of California, a group that supported Sen. Eugene McCarthy's bid for the party's presidential nomination. Serling was living in Pacific Palisades, California. His next-door neighbors, oddly enough, were Ron and Nancy Reagan. Fatalism, from his last interview (1975) http://www.rodserling.com/brevelleint.htm "Brevelle: You told a story in class (ed. note: Sherman Oaks Experimental College, Hollywood) about a near-fatal experience you had in the Philippines during the war. A Japanese soldier aimed his gun at you, you knew he would get off a clean shot and kill you. He couldn't miss, there was nothing you could do to avoid being a perfect target. As you stood frozen in time, unable to move, a fellow G.I. shot the enemy soldier over your shoulder... Serling: That incident, yeah. Well, that was sort of symptomatic of the way I was. Fatalist, you know. About everything. And I survived through no dint of my own courage; it was just somebody up there." He revisited his high school for a commencement speech in 1968, which is great reading even now. http://www.rodserling.com/01281968.htm He seemingly betrays a taste for bourbon in the first paragraph: Graduates, ladies and gentlemen, faculty, friends and old acquaintances—unless you've reached my age and are as familiar with the taste of Serutan as you are with bourbon,...." What doesn't fit, is that Serling was small. 5'4", 140 lbs? But apparently was a boxer at one point. some photos attached.

Jo, I really can't understand why you hang out with all the guys on this thread. I think you must enjoy the abuse at some level? I am not your friend. We're just people posting on the internet. The only rational thing for me would be to take potshots at you for some kind of personal sick pleasure. Chasing some thing down for you makes no sense. Probably not even at $300/hr. More info is easy to find that seems to lend credence to the previously described, unexpected commutation behavior in MO. (pre '79). Here's an example that might lead you places, or give you ways to think about finding the info you want about commutations: Note it has the feel of confirming the article's information. And this is a court document. https://www.fastcase.com/Google/Start.aspx?C=f1d69abee7d815c4c0be8fc743590af7614f6031d6488c68&D=d2d6c53eaee7265e3aeacef47d644ede580f2b9d0c67cf38 597 F.Supp. 1092 Steven LOVE, Plaintiff, v. Dr. Lee Roy BLACK and Dick Moore, Defendants. No. 84-1829C(2). United States District Court, E.D. Missouri, E.D. November 8, 1984. "Plaintiff brings this action under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 challenging the discontinuation of a release program whereby the Governor of the State of Missouri would, upon the recommendation of the Department of Corrections, commute sentences of prisoners who had served 6/12 or 7/12 of their sentence. The new program, "administrative parole," allows the release of prisoners upon serving 7/12 of their sentence subject to supervision by the Department of Corrections." .. "Prior to 1979 Missouri had two basic merit time provisions. Mo.Rev.Stat. § 216.355 (repealed by L.1977, p. 658, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1979) provided for the unconditional release of any prisoner "who shall serve three-fourths of the time for which he was sentenced in an orderly and peaceable manner. ..." The second category of merit time was set forth in Administrative Rules and Regulations. Under this system a prisoner who had served 6/12 or 7/12 of his sentence may have his sentence commuted by the governor upon the recommendation of correction officials. This second category of merit time was based on the governor's power to commute sentences under Article 4, Section 7, of the Missouri Constitution..."

Orange, You completely missed the second level conspiracy explanation. To cover up the significance of Duane's 1968 commutation, the MO govt in the very next year dramatically ramped up commutation volume thus effectively diminishing or even nullifying their significance. A guy in a black helicopter told me so. 377 the really funny thing is... that exact "explanation" had crossed my mind! (albeit sans guy from black helicopter) heh! I was actually astounded when I found the article. I looked again when 377 said the state numbers I quoted before were too low. So good for 377 to be skeptical at first. The surprising thing was how MO was apparently unique during the period we were interested in, and how they had a law change in '79. (I'm guessing about other states, but it doesn't really matter what other states were doing, except how it affected our bias...) Just totally unpredictable. Shows how random coincidences can easily occur and without knowing the full picture, be judged based on present information/bias, rather than the information from the period/region. The sheer number may also explain why records on Duane were lost. The article was written by reporters in a hot political race evidently. Someone trying to tar Republicans (or challenge an assertion?) for being soft on crime historically. The reporters were trying to show how that was an unfair tar, that there was a good reason for it. So the data is probably good...during a gubernatorial race, reporters are going to try to be accurate. (relatively modern, 1998) Also they noted that the governor's office couldn't find some records. So I suspect it's not just Duane's records that were lost, but others also. But as everyone sees, the key thing was that commutations were given as part of the parole process. So it's much easier to understand how Duane would be released after serving half his sentence.

No. The article I just posted above I think answers the question. The laws were different in MO then. There was a parole board, but evidently not full powers until '79? or something like that. (see above). See, we were thinking we understood MO. We didn't. Note to Jo: if this doesn't make you realize you were connecting dots that didn't exist, I don't know what will. You have to read the above and agree: Duane's commutation meant nothing. It was like parole. 377 will have to concur, eventually. (I think?)