snowmman

REPLY> Cooper never requested Reno. FBI website You can't cover up the "Elvis Factor". It's even on the FBI website. pretty funny....the sentence basically says "we don't know where the plane was a little after 8:00 pm, but it was somewhere between Seattle and Reno". If you wanted to bound the possible jump by Seattle and Reno, those times are known precisely..you wouldn't say 'a little after 8:00 pm". Note the Elvis Factor continued with Heady's hijack and jump in Reno in '72. Lapoint's hijack started in Las Vegas in '72. Some news articles mentioned the money was gathered from casinos [for Heady?], but I suspect the money was really provided by Elvis, since he was Nixon's main man on the scene. Nixon -> Elvis -> Cooper. It's pretty simple to figure out. The Nixon/Elvis meeting memorandum has a reference to "radio sets". This happened on 12/21/70. It's likely a coded message about radios Cooper would use, or DF equipment for the BTG vortac. (edit) "4 radio sets" are mentioned. Possibly a reference to 4 chutes. (edit) note the mirror imaging implicit in the date selection: 12/21 Hendrix and Joplin were referenced, but I believe that was to steer investigators away from Jimmy Page, the true co-conspirator I have id'ed before.

I'm not sure how this applies, because Elvis was actually extraterrestrial, not part of some small-town Cooper conspiracy. Everyone knows that Elvis didn't die, but was recalled to his birth planet by the Wow! signal that was received on the planet Earth on August 15, 1977. Elvis's death was then faked the next day on August 16, 1977. I would also note that Roswell has already been mentioned in this thread, so this data is applicable. from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal "The Wow! signal was a strong, narrowband radio signal detected by Dr. Jerry R. Ehman on August 15, 1977, while working on a SETI project at the Big Ear radio telescope of the Ohio State University. The signal bore expected hallmarks of potential non-terrestrial and non-solar system origin. It lasted for 72 seconds, the full duration Big Ear observed it, but has not been detected again. It has been the focus of attention in the mainstream media when talking about SETI results. Amazed at how closely the signal matched the expected signature of an interstellar signal in the antenna used, Ehman circled the signal on the computer printout and wrote the comment "Wow!" on its side. This comment became the name of the signal."

Is this Leroy Jenkins? in any case, that's a good theory, but why would the skydiving community know? That doesn't make sense. Can you make it make sense?

Hi georger. I know what you're saying..but just to be painfully accurate, about what we know, and what we're guessing at (on flight itineraries) ... the only skeds we have so far is 1) the 1963 sked I previously posted that didn't have 305 like we want, and 2) the sked that became active on 8/1/71 that also didn't have 305 like we want, although it was "close" It's possible, 305, as flown on 11/24/71 never showed up on a schedule they printed, although that seems unlikely. So we're guessing a new schedule, maybe active 9/1/71 or 10/1/71 or 11/1/71 or the week of thanksgiving should have 305 as reported flown. The stop in Missoula is in news accounts. I guess we don't know for sure 305 really stopped in Missoula. 305 definitely went from Portland to Seattle though on 11/24/71. and that's not in the 8/1/71 sked. (Missoula isn't in the 8/1/71 sked either). Spokane is in the 8/1/71 sked, so as reported in news accounts, 305 probably stopped in Spokane before Portland. I've mentioned "why not start in Spokane?" before. you could imagine Cooper could even have hijacked 305 in Spokane..picked up stuff in Portland, and jumped going north...but If he said "go to mexico" from portland, maybe he wouldn't have gotten his desired DZ? (edit) maybe he also had concerns about chutes and money being available in Portland. He could have hijacked a Spokane to Seattle flight, but maybe one wasn't available that night. (edit) or maybe Spokane to Seattle was 707? I guess it all depends on how much planning you think Cooper did or didn't do. If he did a lot of planning, then examining all of these issues in detail might give clues to where he was from, or not. I'm questioning the WA resident theory.

interesting document here: http://www.usace.army.mil/publications/misc/un24/c-15.pdf page 9 describes Portland District floods and flood control. Heavy winter rains in '71 and '72 '72 floods in northwest/west Oregon. '72 flood prevention effort. Temporary sand plug at the lower end of the Columbia Slough in Portland, to prevent flooding of North Portland neighborhoods. 100,000 cubic yards of sand spread over the railroad embankment west of Delta Park golf course. They say these two things helped prevent flooding. page 10 Jan '74 had flooding Nov,Dec '77 had flooding, as you say. So: the Columbia may have had high water levels in '72 and '74 also.

yeah... which is why there was a big debate about "no accent" which (IIRC) most seemed to accept as meaning "no identifiable regional accent" (i.e. not no "foreign" accent). REPLY> No doubt Tina knew more than she said, or was asked. She probably was responding to someone's question: "did he have any accent?" But she spent hours with her conversing. Now if Tina had been an expert on phonology (like Jeff Nunberg, CalTech) a small treatise probably would have been written: 'Dialect Variation and Consonental Drift of a Hijacker'! And under the circumstances, Tina and Coop were not sitting there discussing family history, I presume. You take what you get in these matters. But, if Tina had sat down with a linguist she might have been able to provide some clues. Everybody is from somewhere ... Cooper is reported to have said: "Get this plane on the road" which is a derrivative of "Get the show on the road" which oddly enough may have its origins in the Chicago area of the early 1900's ( a linguist reports). But its a common phase many people use in many regions. There are regional differences. One cannot hep but wonder however, was Cooper from the Midwest, the Chicago area, Minneapolis . . . If his physical description is valid then he obviously had an ethnic lineage which was not Irish or Scandinavian. Given that he was second or third generation something. George You've forgotten where Tina was from? Not midwest. SE PA, right? Remember I posted the newspaper article where they talked to her mother the night of the hijack. also: I was looking at use of the phrase "get this plane on", followed by whatever. It seems "get this plane on the ground" is used, when pilots are panicked? I always wondered if "get this plane on the road" was a reference to getting the plane onto the runway. I don't know why people make the leap from "plane on the road" to "show on the road". There's nothing that would say to me that if someone says the former, they mean the latter.

I was thinking of that flight map of Northwest's I just posted..and how there were no used routes going south...not even to SF or LA, from the northwest. i.e. they had no experience going on the necessary airways. I was thinking Sluggo might have a field day theorizing about that. But then I thought: This whole "don't fly above 10k ft" demand...Cooper had no way of verifying it..i.e. they could have flown at 12,000, and what's Cooper going to do? measure it and bitch? No matter what, they could just say "No we're at 10,000" So I'm wondering now if that means that all of this deduction about flight path based on altitude requirements is kind of bogus...i.e. Ckret's point of view might be more valid..he didn't care where they went. He could easily tell if demands were being met by a time. He could maybe tell if the flaps were down and the wheels down (sound?) But how could he tell how high they were flying? I guess maybe he might have known about the automatic release of oxygen masks that we've discussed (what around 12,000 ft?) So maybe that was his marker? Fly low enough so he can tell if they're doing it right, without an altimeter? If he was really planning on jumping further south, then maybe the plan doesn't sound so bad, since the rain stops further south, and it's not as chilly... So maybe that's why he didn't abort on rain in Seattle/PDX? because it didn't matter for his initial plan... if he changed his plan in mid-flight like georger is saying, then all of a sudden it sounds like a bad plan with the rain/cold. just ruminating. Heh there's a researcher named S.D.B. Cooper who's written on the rumen/rumination of sheep...really.

we need more flight schedules I guess, from closer to 11/71. I noticed they had published a special schedule for when the pilots were striking, in 1970. So schedules did change. Don't know if there were special holiday schedules. Don't know if they printed new schedules every month, even? Am I'm not sure if we're going to be able to identify which flights were 707 vs 727 from the timetables in '71. We can tell that they weren't 747. (they bragged about the 747 flights) But knowing when flight 305 started adding the final leg to Seatac (from PDX) would be interesting (between 8/1/71 and 11/24/71). I'm also curious about when the stop in Missoula got added. (edit) I added the departures from Portland and the departures from Great Falls (which shows 305) from the timetable. This backs up everything I said before. The first two show the 8/1/71 effective date. (edit) added some of the flight itineraries for Northwest..including 305. (edit) It appears that Cooper could have flown first class for just $25. But he decided to go with the $20 coach fare. (all the portland to seattle flights then available were that price)

Yeah it's odd. Remember though the normal timetable may have changed by 11/71. On the one hand, you could say Cooper just seemed to walk in and say "give me the next flight to Seattle"...and it just happened to be the last one arriving in Seattle before 5:00, and it was special/new, since 8/71 at least. (edit) But he knew he had to get the money from the banks before 5:00??? or did he? You've mentioned him scouting the route. The likely two planes were going to be 707 or 727. Either he didn't care, or he checked it out. There's some myth about him asking at the counter, but I don't think so? It's interesting that back then Cooper didn't have to worry about being overbooked around Thanksgiving...no advance ticketing needed. He wasn't worried about a seat? And the whole Washington, Minneapolis, Great Falls, Missoula, Spokane, Portland, Seattle itinerary for 305 bugs me. It was the last leg of a very long flight itinerary. If he was from Seattle, or wanted the chutes from Seattle, why didn't he hijack a plane from Spokane to Seattle? (I'll have to check those, but some existed). Why go to Portland? So he wouldn't be recognized? It makes more sense that he was from Portland, and Seattle was the only logical choice. But why risk being recognized at PDX (in the future?) I'm wondering if Cooper was really from neither Portland, nor Seattle area. (edit) it would be interesting if most of the other PDX to Seattle flights were 707, not 727. Don't have that info. If they were all 727, that would mean I don't know what. (edit) Or why didn't he just hijack any plane out of PDX, and say "we're going to Seattle to get some stuff" I guess then you have to worry about other planes in the air in your way? Better to pick one that's already going where you want?

too many good accounts online.. some snips http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=353&magazine_editions_id=24 Marana Special Projects “Between 1962 and 1975, we worked on different research-and-development projects out of Marana Airpark, near Tucson, Arizona. Projects we tested included a ‘para-wing’ with a remote-control device and a parachute with a built-in guidance system that could zero in on a ground frequency system commonly known as a ground-to-air beacon device. Also, we tested the Parachute Impact System, which played a huge role in the secret war in Laos. This parachute allowed the pilot to fly high enough to keep out of range of small-arms fire. We worked with the Forest Service and BLM in…support of [combating] wildfire. From New Mexico to Alaska, we worked with the CIA and assisted in airborne training back in Williamsburg, Virginia.” The Secret War “From 1965-1973, many smokejumpers worked as air-operations and case officers in Northern and Southern Laos. North, East, South or West, we were there. In 1969 and 1971, we supported General Vang Pao's Hmong Army to take the Plain de Jars. I was wounded February 14, 1971, at General Vang Pao's secret base, known as Long Tieng, or Lima Site 20A. I always felt it was a Valentine’s gift from Ho Chi Minh.” ... "When it came to jumping out of any type of aircraft, helicopters included, there was no fear. If we wanted to sit down together and figure out how many types of aircraft we jumped and rappelled out of, I would say between 30 and 40. Many of these were experimental jumps with experimental or peculiar types of equipment" '''' "At the north end of the airstrip we had a barricade of barrels filled with dirt and stacked three high. The purpose of the barrels was to stop the aircraft before they hit the limestone karst. I witnessed two T-28s landing with their hydraulics shot out. Before the pilots hit the barricade, they ejected at ground zero. Out they go, and the parachute would open about 75 feet off the ground. Both pilots survived."

You guys probably know all the stories about the CIA front operation called Intermountain Aviation, in Marana, Arizona. There are lots of web pages. A nice background is at: http://www.bollyn.com/index/?id=10684 which gives estimates for the amount of CIA employment of smokejumpers: "From the mid-1950s until the mid-1970s, the CIA actively recruited paramilitary personnel from the smokejumper program, particularly at the Forest Service's Region One fire base at Missoula, Mont., and a satellite base at McCall, Idaho. As many as one-fourth of the smokejumpers at those bases worked at least part time for the CIA." This story is a well known one, (for 377, although he probably knows about it already). Intermountain was also connected to air drops in Laos, and the guy previously mentioned. quoting a web page: "In Project Coldfeet: Secret Mission to a Soviet Ice Station by William M. Leary and Leonard A. LeSchack (1996), I read what Jerry had done in the Arctic. In 1962 an Intermountain Aviation B-17 with the Fulton Skyhook apparatus and a number of jumpers in the crew parachuted a Navy officer and an Air Force officer on to an abandoned Soviet ice station and gave them three days to sort out important intelligence material. (The Fulton Skyhook has two arms or “horns” extending from the nose of the aircraft that engage a 500-foot rope held aloft by a helium balloon and tethered on the ground to an object or person to be picked up.) The B-17 returned and picked up the intelligence material and officers in three passes. Jerry was the winch operator who brought the cargo and people on board. In 1963 the same aircraft with Jerry as winch operator picked up the body of an American scientist who died of a heart attack on a U.S. ice station."

Missoula is interesting (see prior post on 305 flight), because if you were shopping for a smokejumper, that's were you might(likely?) have gone in 1971? Missoula Smokejumper Base http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/smokejumpers/missoula/history.html Amazingly, I actually found a CIA connection in the Missoula Smokejumper History at an offical forest service site: (edit) actually not amazing as there is lots of info elsewhere on this..I wasn't aware of it. http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/smokejumpers/missoula/History/General/daniels.htm Jerry "Hog" Daniels Excerpted from "Hmong Voices in Montana" by the Missoula Museum of the Arts Foundation. Susan Lindbergh Miller, Bounthavy Kiatoukaysy Thao, Tou Yang, editors. 1992. "A little-known fact is that Smoke Jumpers from Montana were recruited by the CIA to work in Laos. Some collaborated with General Vang Pao who would later move his family to Montana. Among these was Jerrold B. Daniels from Missoula who, in the early 1960's, became the liaison officer between Vang Pao and the CIA. For twenty years he worked closely with the Hmong and became a trusted friend. When the communists took over Laos in 1975 and United States pulled out, thousands of Hmong fled across the Mekong river to Thailand where they lived in refugee camps. Until his death in 1982, Jerry Daniels remained in Southeast Asia. As chief Ethnic Affairs Officer in charge of the Highlander and Lao refugees, he helped his Hmong friends both in the camps and in resettlement in the United States. Jerry Daniels died at the age of 41 in his home in Bangkok on April 29, 1982. His body was shipped back to Montana where Hmong friends and colleagues gathered from all over the United States to pay final tribute to their beloved friend at a traditional Hmong funeral ceremony.

Got my 8/71 Northwest Orient System Timetable. It raises a couple of questions. (it might say Cooper didn't plan it in 8/71?) First, it feels eerie thumbing thru it..I picture Cooper flipping thru one very similar. But not this one. While 8/71 is very close to 11/71, it appears that it's not close enough. Flight 305 in 8/71, went direct to Spokane then Portland, from Great Falls. No stop at Seatac. They must have changed 305 by 11/24/71? Or maybe a special holiday schedule? I'll break out interesting things: 1) Aircraft operated by Northwest: 747, 707-320, 720B, 727S, 727. There is usually no indication of plane used per flight. 747's are marked on some flights. (747 was new then). Don't think Cooper picked 727 from the schedule. It's possible 727 was just the most likely plane, if Northwest was chosen for domestic flight? 2) There were many flights from PDX to Seatac during the day. Assuming these flights stayed constant till 11/24/71, it appears Flight 305 might have been the last Northwest flight to arrive in Seatac before 5PM. Maybe that dictated it's choice, more than anything. Northwest PDX to Seatac flights (daily) 8AM Flight 78 9:15AM Flight 87 11:05AM Flight 70 1:00PM Flight 103 (Cooper bought his ticket around 2PM? so 305 may have been the next flight) The following flights all arrived at Seatac after 5PM 4:40PM Flight 735 5:00PM Flight 537 9:00PM Flight 723 10:10PM Flight 42 11:00pm Flight 700 3) The only other destinations out of Portland (for Northwest) were: Philadelphia Pittsburgh Rochester, Minn. Seoul, Korea Spokane Taipei, Taiwan Tampa, St. Petersburg Tokyo, Japan Washington, Baltimore Winnipeg, Man. Canada Not as many time choices for those flights. Generally earlier in the day. It's possible Seatac was chosen as a destination just because of flights scheduled out of PDX, not because of familiarity. 4) The itinerary for Flight 305 in the back pages on 8/71 was: Washington-Cleveland, Cleveland-Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minneapolis/St.Paul-Great Falls, Great Falls-Spokane, Spokane-Portland. 5) Looking at Flights leaving Great Falls: Flight 305 Leaves for Spokane at 11:55am and arrives at 11:47am Flight 305 leaves for Portland at 11:55am and arrives at 1:07PM Flight 305/105 leaves for Seatac at 11:55am and arrives at 1:12pm (I assume this means you get on flight 105 when you arrive in Spokane) The key thing is that on 8/71 flight 305 would terminate at 1:07PM in Portland. On 8/71 there was no continuation to Seatac, unless you took Flight 735 at 4:40PM. But it was better to take Flight 105 from Spokane, if you wanted to get to Seatac earlier. Somehow Flight 305 got a new leg by 11/24/71, I guess, to Seatac. Maybe to cover the gap in flights between 1PM and 4:40PM. Maybe it was a special holiday schedule? 6) Interestingly, Northwest had no flights from the northwest going south to San Francisico and LA. They mostly had flights going straight across to the Northeast, or down to Florida from Chicago. They had flights from the Northeast to San Fran and LA. Minneapolis, St, Paul was a key intermediate point. But there were the odd places in Montana, Idaho, and North Dakota too. 7) What's odd is that it's well documented that on 11/24/71 Flight 305 went Washington DC -> Minneapolis -> Great Falls (which matches the above) but then it stopped in Missoula, then did the leg to Spokane, then Portland. It then continued on to Seatac, which is the leg Cooper was on. Michael Cooper was the passenger picked up in Missoula. So the Missoula stop was new, and the extra leg to Seatac was new. The 8/71 schedule shows Missoula to Spokane (then continuing to Porland) being flights 103 & 109 at 11:27AM & 6:14PM. So the new 305 stop was more of a mid-day stop in Missoula. 8) (edit) There were a lot of Seatac to PDX flights during the day...about the same as PDX to Seatac. But maybe Cooper chose the direction he did because of his thinking on getting chutes/money easier in Seattle? Oh, another comment on when search areas were defined. Found a newspaper article on 11/27/71 that said: "The FBI said the search was being concentrated in the Cowlitz-Clark County area in southern Washington as a result of information provided by the crew and 'strictly conjecture on our part.' An FBI spokesman said the 75 square mile area was selected because the crew reported a slight shift in the plane's balance while over this farmland region" I guess this is the "curtsy" that we discussed very early on, but seem to have dropped discussion of?

The little politics quips reminded me of a thought I had but didn't post much on. It's easy to fall into a trap of thinking Cooper might have been a left/liberal kind of guy..i.e. the folklore of winning against the system. Or a guy with no social/political views..just wanted the money. But in reading thru Hubbard, I was surprised to see him say that contrary to myth, many of the skyjackers were more right wing conservative types. I don't know if the numbers still hold that way. But it got me looking for right wing groups. As I mentioned before, the Minutemen had been trying to be active in the Seattle area there, with a number of arrests around 1968 around planned bank robberies/bombings. I was always surprised that H. thought it made sense to say Cooper might have been a career criminal looking to make one last big score. And I still have a hard time with the idea of "it was just about the money". I guess I'm a "grudge+money" fanboy. I wanted to mention this, because it made me at least think of different theories. In the 1968 arrests in Seattle, the founder was indicted also. There were similar arrests in 1966 in NY, but the charges were dropped background site http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/paranoia-as-patriotism/minutemen.html news snips about the Seattle stuff (there was an informant in the group that talked to FBI) MINUTEMEN FOUNDER CITED IN THEFT PLOT March 5, 1968, Tuesday SEATTLE, March 4 (AP) -Robert Bolivar DePugh, 44 year-old founder and head of the Minuteman organization, and one of his top assistants have been indicted here in a bank robbery plot... DePugh evidently evaded the FBI for 18 months and was eventually caught in 1969. MINUTEMEN CHIEF CAPTURED BY F.B.I.; DePugh and Aide Had Been Sought Year and a Half July 14, 1969, Monday WASHINGTON, July 13 (UPI) -- Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation have arrested Robert Bolivar DePugh, leader of the right-wing organization called the Minutemen, on a charge of general conspiracy in connection with a series of planned bank robberies, Attorney General John N. Mitchell announced today. DePugh was paroled in 1973 DePugh of Minutemen Paroled New York Times - May 1, 1973 After having served four years of an 11-year sentence, Robert Bolivar DePugh, founder of the right-wing Minutemen organization, was released from Federal..... Others: Duane I. Carlson (seattle) had been convicted. Started serving a 5-year sentence, on 11/8/70, roughly a year before the hijacking. Jo would have liked knowing the Minutemen were looked at on the MLK assassination, but there was nothing. http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-2c.html

Okay. you jumpers have talked about how tight the community is, and how everyone knows everyone, and us nonjumpers just don't quite understand. Well, I'm kind of flabbergasted right now (and feel like the outsider Hoop likes to describe). I posted those pics of Brett Maurer's first jump, which was off El Cap. I didn't have any background on it other than the caption from the '84 article. I mentioned that some pics of Robin Heid were also in Leavitt's article, along with Rob Slater. And then what do you know? I get a PM from XXXXX XXXXX giving the details. I'm blown away..feels like just 1 or 2 degrees of Kevin Bacon :) What's interesting from the Cooper angle was that there was prior tunnel time (a little). So more pre-jump training than I thought. (Sections redacted at request of the original author.)

Ckret, some questions when you find time: 1) any thoughts on the white cord/line on the side straps of the chest chute that you have? Were they there before Cooper got it? Or did Cooper put them on? or is it just unknown? I could imagine that someone before Cooper might have tried to jury-rig a belly-band..but it's odd that at least one of the white cords appears frayed, as if cut. 2) are there cords inside the chest container? (cut?) if so: what color? 3) Can you confirm whether a rip was found, or not, for the chest container?

Again - fiction and fact - WHERE does the FACTs state he pulled the packing cards out and tossed them on the floor? Snowmman you are getting this all messed up. The packing card was something that is packed with the chute telling who packed it (as to my understanding ). The only time a packing card was mentioned was in one of the fiction books. We are ALL aware of the instruction sheet that Tina was given - a packing card in the chute and the instruction sheet Tina had possession of are TWO different animals as I understand it. If I am wrong ok - but you guys (skydivers hashed this out in the other thread or earlier in this one) I had nothing to do with it that information. One is fiction and one is fact. But both are not fact. Okay. You scored. Now try to decide if I really think you scored.

Hi NickD. Okay then hold onto the firehose: hey it's good to revisit what led to the instruction sheet discussion then. (edit) just read your comments about "illegal"...The theory was that Cossey modified the rip for his own personal use. But then again, no one verified all this with Cossey. We're going off a conversation Ckret had recently with Cossey (in April) It's in the thread, but I'll extract the relevant stuff so we're all in sync. I'm real curious about NickD's feedback on this. Especially if there are any thoughts about Cooper actions that might betray experience or non-experience. The key was an apparent right hand pull ripcord mod that Cossey evidently did. Ckret described how Cossey demonstrated the required pull with his right hand, going out and up: Later, Ckret mentioned the instruction sheet, and we were guessing that maybe it was because of this modified pull, but then Ckret mentioned it's not clear if Cossey created the instruction sheet or what..(see my prior post with the relevant Ckret snippets) Tell me if these post snippets don't cover it right..or go back in the thread around the dates/times shown. In any case, both the attitude towards the instruction sheet (although Ckret points out he might have later read it when Tina was gone) and the modified rip may give us some info, or not. In fact the modified rip could easily be argued for a no-pull situation? posts snipped here: *** Ckret June 13, 2008 9:56 AM He [Cossey] talked about a two phase pull because of where he placed the handle. (it would have been under the right armpit) He said Cooper would have had to pull fully out and then up to deploy the chute. If he only pulled the handle out the chute would not have delopyed. Can someone tell me if this is normal? Why would there have been a two directional pull? *** Ckret June 13, 2008 3:42 PM Back to the NB6, Cossey modified the chute, we know that from the 28' canopy. And when we spoke he said he placed the handle under the right armpit. The motion he showed me was that Cooper would have had to hook his right thumb in the handle and push straight out, like a bench press motion. Once fully extended, he would have had to rotate his fully extended arm up over his head. Does this make sense? or did he just demonstrate right handed and he really meant left? *** nitrochute, June 13, 2008 4:03 PM hmmmm....it appears that cossey modified the location of the ripcord.but i still am unclear on why he would do that. i have in 40+ years never seen somone do such an odd mod to a pilot emergency chute. was cossey a pilot as well as a rigger /jumper? and the chute was used strictly by him when he flew jumpers?. it seems such an odd set up from your description. does cossey have any interest in joining us on this forum?if it was set up that way i can almost guarantee that cooper bounced because it is such an odd configuration. *** Guru312 June 13, 2008 6:37 PM > Does this make sense? or did he just demonstrate > right handed and he really meant left? Yes! It certainly does make sense. It is brilliant, actually. I have 2000 hours flying jumpers with about 1000 hours flying for a heavily first jump oriented DZ on the Eastern Shore of Maryland known as Pelicanland. I was always expecting a student to freak-out and grab onto me screaming, "I'm not leaving this airplane!" As I've written, I put a 28 into an NB-6 because I didn't want a potentially hard landing under a 26. The more difficult hard pull was a bonus for protecting me from the nutty first time grabbers. I would guess that Cossy or the pilot for whom he packed the rig would want the larger, easier landing canopy for the same reason I would. His idea for the rip cord under the right arm is brilliant! Only under the left arm would be better than under the right. Second reason for the ripcord postion as described under the right arm allows for the best possible body position when diving out the door. Your right hand can easily grab the handle and push out, Superman style with the right thumb hooked inside the handle, as the pilot jumps out. My hat's off to Cossey. I wish I had thought of it.

Again - fiction and fact - WHERE does the FACTs state he pulled the packing cards out and tossed them on the floor? Whenever georger posts something in shorthand (edit) or slightly misremembered, I always know what he's referring to. (see georger's original post for the main point he was trying to make). When a response post implies georger is dense, I can never understand it. Is it like a game the republicans play...i.e. lets pretend everyone is stupid, and score points wherever we can? Okay well I guess that can be fun too. (edit) I'll call the eight ball on this game and predict I win, regardless of how we twist and turn. Takers? No there won't be, because it's a stupid game that just stupid people play. Here are the relevant posts from Ckret about the parachute instructions that Cooper acted dismissively toward. The only other thing that comes to mind is the toilet paper Cooper wiped with that Ckret says was found on I5. [Joke] Ckret June 13, 2008 10:41 PM Cooper jumped with a chute that had obviously been modified for one individual, it's owner. One more thing that just hit me, Cooper was given an instruction sheet on the chutes, wonder if it was Cossey trying to tell Cooper, "there's something you should know about one of these chutes...." Ckret June 14, 2008 10:54 AM In true Cooper fashion, when Tina tried to give him the instruction sheet he said, "I don't need those." There was no other mention of the instruction sheet after that. Ckret June 14, 2008 3:13 PM I want to make sure everyone understands that the instruction sheet offered to Cooper may or may not have come from Cossey. I think it was a bit odd to offer instructions to Cooper when he made no request for them. And from what we now know the NB6 was altered to the point that even an experienced skydiver may have had difficulty with it. From this, I think that maybe Cossey knew this and wanted to warn anyone who my try to use it. Total guess on my part, but the two backpacks came from Cossey, from Cossey's house. i don't think he had a manufactures instruction sheet laying around that he sent with them.

I know nothing about fingerprints on objects. Since the cloverleaf rip handle was metal, it might have held fingerprints? And Cooper would have had to touch it to open the container...this is much more substantial than the little tie clip that has been mentioned for prints before. Be nice to have a photo of the inside of the chest container. I'm curious about whether there are cut strings there, and if they are pink or white. (edit) Oh ps...back when georger was asking about hardware that might have caused a speculated rust stain on the bill...the shape seemed to me a reasonable match for a cloverleaf rip handle, but I thought that was stupid since there'd be no reason for it to be in the money bag....but if it was nowhere on the plane..maybe it was in the money bag? just a long shot speculation..very unlikely combination of speculations

wow, thanks. nitro/NickD you guys have added a lot of new insights/questions to the details of "what the heck did Cooper actually do with all the gear he had" In the best of all worlds, it would be nice if you could actually handle all the gear. Is there anything interesting that an additional photo from Ckret might provide? I'm wondering about how NickD mentioned that the lines would terminate inside the chest container on hardware that hooks to your harness. Does that mean inside the container, we should be able to see little bits of line that were cut? Or does the line just loop thru hardware somehow...so when it's cut, there are no remnants left in the chest container? Also: what's that vertical metal looking rod on the top left? To leave no detail unturned (and remember it's clear I have no expertise), is it likely that the missing rip is what would be called a "cloverleaf" style or ???

Georger - go back and do your research. You are listening to fiction, She saw little of this - he sent her forward. Jo, I didn't understand your post here. Could you clarify? For background: (my bold) (note specifically that the question of "extra straps from the chest pack" may negate any theorizing Ckret did in the 2nd post below) on Dec 17, 2007 4:26 PM Ckret posted the following: startpost--- Cooper's plan was to have the money delivered in a knapsack. When he realized it did not come as requested he tried to secure the money in the reserve's container but could not make it fit. He then decided to use the cords to tie off the top of the money bag, then wrapped the cords several times top to bottom and fashioned some type of handel out of more cord. Tina stated the last time she saw Cooper he was tying cord around his waist. The money was approximately the size of an average toddler, a point of reference most can visualize. endpost--- Ckret then did some apparent theorizing? On July 2, 2008 4:11 AM Ckret posted: startpost--- I need to get a handle on how Cooper tied off the bag, so I thought I 'd toss out a challenge. We know the bag was a standard bank bag, I think they come in small, med and large, I am assuming he had a large bag. Because of the money find, the neck of the bag must have been secured independently from the line used to secure the bag to himself. If not, when the bag separated from Cooper the line securing the neck of the bag would have come loose and the money would have spilled out. So in my mined Cooper used one section of line to wrap around the neck of the bag and tied it off. He used the other section of line to wrap up the bag and form a loop with what was remaining, this according to the witness. Cooper is now out of line, he only cut two sections I can't remember what I posted but it was either 14'2" and 14'3' or 15'2" and 15'3" (I'll have to find the post to be sure). So according to the witness Cooper had to have clipped the loop into the harness. ---endpost

I had been wondering about something, maybe it applies in this discussion of the chest stuff. I know nothing about this so would appreciate if any answer is "for those with zero knowledge" attached is a slightly enlarged photo from the fbi of the chest that was left behind. There are white nylon (apparently) lines tied on the side straps. The 2nd attachment is the same photo from the fbi, not cropped or resized. It shows the pink canopy and pink lines. Did the lines absorb color from the canopy over time? Or did pink lines really exist? Also: what are the white lines on the chest side straps? Why would cords be attached there, in that method? it seems odd? Did the fbi do this for some reason or ??? Note the white line seems to be cut or frayed also. (both photos are rotated vertically from the site they were originally taken from..the benefit is that the labelled "top" of the pack, is top of the photo) (edit) maybe for NickD: Isn't the rip handle also missing from that chest pack? Ckret: was a rip handle found for the chest pack left behind? You guys are listing all the "pieces" that should be there...duh for me I guess it had to come out to get the canopy out..but where did it go?

Magazine is a now-defunct UK climbing/mountaineering magazine called "Mountain" Number 99. Sept./Oct. 1984. pages 33 thru 37. title: "Cliffing" by Randy Leavitt. has color photos of jumps by Randy Leavitt, Rob Slater, Robin Heid, and text article. Jumps: Painted Wall, (Black Canyon) and El Cap. Page 36 has the two B/W pictures attached. Caption says "Brett Maurer, having dispensed with the formality of a preliminary jump from an aircraft, makes his first ever parachute jump from the top of El Capitan. 2nd caption: Two seconds later Maurer surveys the landing site. The date of the jump isn't included, but from the tone of the article I suspect sometime between '80-'84. Photos taken by Leavitt. The only description of the jump is in the caption for the photos, which I've included. This has some text from the article also. I believe I've read a description of that jump elsewhere, also, that described the literal "parking lot" training. Might be able to find it.

What I see is a bunch of smart folks that recently came back to this thread. I'm amazed and see that as a pretty warm, friendly gesture. Thank you to all the jumpers that have recently come back here. A little PM about your phraseology, is nothing. Suck it up. You'll stay because useful info appears here, not because someone kisses your ass. (like everyone..say Jo!) In other social groups that share similar ties, the difference of opinion probably would have been resolved with a fist in the face. And then everyone would grab a beer and move on. Hey here's a interesting factoid on alias selection I found in wikipedia: "On April 15, 1995 Timothy McVeigh rented a Ryder truck in Junction City, Kansas under the alias Robert D. Kling, an alias he adopted because he had known a soldier named Kling with whom he shared physical characteristics, and because it reminded him of the Klingon warriors of Star Trek." (I was comparing yield of a MK-54 SADM to the OK bombing...and thought the Kling thing was interesting compared to our musings about the use of "Cooper") I've also been wondering about how much parachute/skydiving knowledge was available in books/magazines in '71. I'm wondering if Cooper might have had zero jump experience and just read up on things. Did you really have to "know" someone to get jump knowledge back then? I've got a picture of someone doing their first jump off El Cap. (no prior jump of any kind before)...Early '80s (I can scan it if NickD is curious). It looks like a hand deploy. Apparently the story was he got instruction in the parking lot. How would that pucker factor compare to Cooper's? It's always made me wonder about claims of "a little" prior jump experience with Cooper. I'm wondering why people say that: pucker factor? or some of the actions (like 10k ft request, flaps etc)