Martini

Well yeah I wanna watch too. And who said anything about jumping without a parachute? Nobody says you have to use it, just wear it. And yeah in the USA it has to be TSO'd to be legal. A wingsuit is also a decelleration device, it just isn't real efficient and doesn't flare worth a shit. Think snow, real steep snow. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Considering what you all do for fun it blows me away that you can be so close-minded to this concept. It appears obvious to me that a no-canopy wingsuit landing will be accomplished, probably fairly soon and probably on snow. Will the first attempts be successful? Probably not. Kind of like early wingsuit attempts. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Instead of trying to analyze this thing that has lots of variables why not take a piece of webbing and anchor it firmly between two solid points to create some reasonable representation of a chest strap angle, even an extremely flat one, and try to break it. Using hard anchors will eliminate speculation of deflection and provide an extreme case scenario. Hang from it, jerk on it, use any means possible using only your body as the pulling force. Betcha a 6-pack of Red Hook that you can't break even a type 17 strap. The theory doesn't mean squat until it's tested anyway. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

If we have an exit altitude of 25,000 feet and free fall 12,000 feet to deploy at 13,000 feet is the ground still a factor in separation? Or a 12,000 foot freefall from 1,000,000 feet? Don't believe so. Don't believe the "wind" is either since the wind is only ground relevant. Sometimes to hell with math and physics. Please protect yourselves from the inherent dangers of an out landing but kindly consider my ass too. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Eugene, I love ya man. Your dedication to science is really admirable. I constantly amazes me that you are more fascinated by skydiving physics than anyone I know of. Keep it up dude. Also you are welcome to hang from my type 17 chest strap whenever you have the skill, it's not that hard but it requires good sit/stand control. Even if I throw and have a slammer while you're hanging on your fingers will tear off before the strap or hardware fails. Assuming it's in good shape which it is. I took a hybrid 3-way a little low a couple of years ago while hanging. One of the belly fliers mentioned that he wasn't too concerned, he'd just remove me at 3k by throwing if I was still there. I believe him. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Derek, I have to disagree with you on the separation/groundspeed thing. The aircraft and the jumpers aren't influenced by the ground or it's relative speed, the ground doesn't even exist for them (unless ya get too close). Aircraft and it's spawn, that's you and me, only know the air. BTW I am also strongly in favor of dumping high (like 4k not 8k) in lieu of landing out especially at my DZ. 8-9 months of C-182 jumps and some very ugly outs make this a clear choice. Tracking up or down the line of flight is a bad bad thing but pretty tough to avoid on anything larger than a three way. At any rate the incident reports show few freefall/canopy collisions but many off DZ landing injuries. I'm not sure how this translates because a (rare) freefall/canopy collision would seem to have a higher likelihood of a fatality than a (frequent) out landing. Great discussion, I'm learning a lot here. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

As I see it: Pulling high increases your odds of a collision with jumpers behind you. The higher you pull the more you increase the odds. Horizontal separation is a function of aircraft airspeed. If everyone tracks 90 degrees for 4 seconds on a no-wind helicopter jump everyone is still stacked up. If someone pulls high it could be ugly. You have to move the aircraft through the air, the faster the better. Nothing to do with groundspeed either. The big air effect helps keep incidents low. No doubt in my mind. Too many factors affect the outcome. (airspeed, fallrate, separation time, tracking speed and direction, pull altitude, canopy direction, awareness, experience etc.) Horizontal group separation is the biggest factor keeping the big air effect from being the main source of safety. Jumping a Cessna 182 with 4 fliers incurs less chance of a collision than an Otter load. Just my 2 cents. Worth every penny. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Thanks for the neat explanation Brian. Understanding the physics will help me apply the theory. Clearly a maneuver to be practiced well before landing in a backyard especially controlling carving room and doing carves from a straight-in approach. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Brian, could you elaborate a little further on the hockey stop technique? I know how to do it on skates, skis and snowboard but don't get the canopy theory other than carves shortening swoop distance. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

My apologies for the cynical post, didn't know the circumstance. I'm sure to have offended a lot of good folks, it was not my intention. Lew, I see you have a lot of support and love, I hope to help if I can. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Yeah me too. I need a tame (Sabre, Safire, Spectre etc.) 120/135 for awhile. I promise to be really really nice to it. Really. I could also use a decent SUV, preferably low miles and a loaner snowboard. Something like a Lib Tech Pacifier or Emma around 162/166. My guitar is getting kinda worn too and oh well never mind. Except about the canopy. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Re: the original post. Rig & Things/ Paraservice is a reputable dealer with good products, good prices and ethical business practices in my experience. They have been my dealer of choice for some time. Someone reading this thread might get a mistaken impression about a good equipment dealer. Take your philosophical discussion somewhere else. The post is about a specific dealer not your personal attitude. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

" Just as a note here, old Sabres make brilliant wingsuit canopies. Our decreased vertical speed make for better openings and Sabres open straight all the time. They are also dirt cheap on the used market" I'm looking for a Sabre 120 or 135 to borrow, rent or buy ultra cheap just for that purpose if anyone has one they'd like to share. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Well, Bob, I think that you have a concept that is useful and probably practical. (eventually) Not so much as an alarm but as an information system. If the user could have an accurate and useful altitude readout it might help prevent object fixation, brainlock, distraction etc. from causing a low hook. My personal hangup is twilight interfering with depth perception. Even though most of the information the brain processes during the hook (groundspeed, airspeed, altitude, acceleration, body/canopy angle and lots of other stuff) is mostly visual, a confirmation of true altitude, not a guess at the altimeter, could be a real help to some. For instance I set up a 180 around 450' and a 270 around 650' and a better judgement of altitude might help with consistency even if it just trains my eyes to be more accurate. On the other hand if someone were to become totally reliant on an artificial swoop system they would be injured in short order. An altimeter or Dytter is an aid but no substitute for experience and awareness but having tools like those certainly increases safety. It wouldn't be a bad thing if I knew I was about to set up a swoop 100' low. I'll bet some of the folks who have smashed in might have liked that kind of help. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

I'm sure that the fact that I happened to have packed that rig before you jumped it had nothing to do with the mal. Well I was planning on jumping it myself. (but at the time wasn't aware of the pc problem). In retrospect it seems apparent that bad body position was the real problem. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Jeanne, I'm impressed with your coolness and presence of mind in dealing with your pc in tow. Especially the hand pull on the bridle. Ditching that old pc is a real good idea. About two years ago Doc was jumping a rig with a pc that was known to be worn out (and improperly constructed). It eventually caused a mal and chop. For the guy who borrowed the rig. The rigger doing the repack wouldn't even let met have the pc to mess with, said he was going to burn it. Probably the best plan. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Actually I wasn't interested in how you think I should spend my money. But I agree (and have given other jumpers flak) that being a cheapskate with pc stuff is foolish. I am interested in rigging though and if I could build a safe bridle extension for five bucks worth of materials and my free labor then that's exactly what I'd do. You also may have noticed that I've already resigned myself to buying a new Cazer 9' bridle with a new pc. Personally I support anyone who shows an interest in improving and innovating equipment for any reason. Thats how the stuff that you and I are using today got here. Including your skateboard wheels. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

My current canopy will pack grommet up, not so sure about a bigger rag. Not planning on cutting the corners on my container but I'll talk to Kelly about it (at Velocity Sports). Sitting up after the throw is probably useful. I haven't completely figured out how to do a bridle extension but it appears that it would have to be outside the bag and have a kill line extension too. Probably way more trouble than it's worth. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Is it possible to make a 2' extension for my 7' cazer bridle for wingsuit flying? Is there that much difference? If I have to go to a new 9' bridle it seems logical to get it on a new pc.....but I'd like to save the 85 bucks. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

I wonder if the Stiletto/Spinetto remarks are made mainly by those who have never jumped one? PD's Stiletto is one of the best traditional hp canopies around. Thats why it has been so popular for so long. Naturally you have to have the skills to fly it. In keeping with this post, my (very) limited experience with the Diablo is that it accentuates the deficiencies of both nine and seven cell canopies. That is why it proved to be so unpopular. Unless you are getting a seriously hot deal on a Diablo most people I know would reccommend buying something else. Like maybe a Stiletto. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

" Full flight then 90 degree front riser one way then 180 degree snap hook or carve depending on altitude. " I was beginning to think that I was the only one using this setup. Works well to maintain the pattern and nice for those of us that like snap 180s. Never mind that the 180 turn to final is looking straight down from 500 feet. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

First of all you're clearly rushing the new container/canopy thing. That Naro and SR-71 combo is good for at least another 10 years/10,000 jumps. But if you insist you should talk to Doc, he has done a considerable amount of research into the big reserve/small main thing. He's probably235 out the door, usually jumps a Cobalt 105 and around a 170 PDR. (numbers approximate) Getting a demo reserve is also cheap and worthwhile, I'm planning to demo one this summer. I think PD charges 25-30 bucks. I bet there are several jumpers who'd like to do a demo and share the cost. A Seattle Skydivers sponsored reserve demo weekend might even be a worthwhile event to consider. PM me if you like. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Jussi, would you reccommend a Xaos-21 (loaded around 2.0) for a new wingsuit flier? Mine opens softly, slowly and generally well behaved but will definately twist up if you don't fly the opening. If I buy a BM then a second canopy isn't affordable. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Sometimes my container weighs about 6.5 lbs. (Infinity), sometims it weighs about 194 lbs., especially early on sunday morning. I think it has something to do with the combination of alcohol and gravity. Sometimes you eat the bear..............

Eugene, you might keep in mind that the only stows that really need to be tight are the locking stows. (the first 2 grommet stows that keep the d-bag closed and the canopy inside) The rest of the stows are a convenient way of organizing the lines. The BIG thing that counts is that the bag stays closed until the lines are straight between the risers and the canopy before the canopy starts to inflate (i.e. no slack). The "organizing" stows need to be symmetrical in size and tension toprevent the bag from spinning. If there wasn't a high risk of the lines tangling they could be free-stowed in the container under the. locked bag. Sometimes you eat the bear..............