nacmacfeegle

"Isn't it rather disturbing that Hezbollah finds Moore's movie helpful to their cause? Anything that supports terrorists and terrorism is, in my book, a strike against us." I see your point Lori, but I'm not sure that MM is actually actively or passively supporting terrorism. What he is doing is making political statements criticising your government, that is not supporting terrorism in my book, regardless of how many terrorists agree with his point of view. "he is a self-aggrandizing jackass. " No argument here either, but he is good at it. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

Aye, but Hezbollah wanting to help Moore is an entirely different thing to the allegations of Moore actually supporting terrorism. Surely? -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

"I love it how people conveniently ignore the fact that there has been a couple, albeit small, discoveries of WMD's in Iraq." Have our leaders pointed to this evidence as justification for the war? Has Colin Powell stood up, with a Powerpoint presentation showing pictures of the shells and said "see we were right"? No. Because they (WMDs evidenced to date) do not, and did not, represent a clear and present danger to world peace, and the leaders of the coalition know this. >edit to add< ""I have to accept we haven't found them and we may never find them, We don't know what has happened to them." Tony Blair re-assuring the commons yesterday.... "From 1991 on, he was allowed to possess none." Agreed, it was pretty clear in the UN resolutions being discussed at the time. It was, however, the responsibility of the UN to enforce those resolutions. It was not the responsibility of individual countries to usurp that authority. This sets an unwelcome precedent (president?). IMO we should have finished the job in '91. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

"The point I have had made, ad nauseum, was that the invasion was not correctly justified, no hard evidence of WMDs, and no link available at the time to OBL." No hard evidence, no justification. Lets do the analogy thing..... If my neighbour is misbehaving, or acting unsocially, I try and sort it out without conflict, on a personal level. If the situation is not resolved, I will take my complaint to a higher authority, probably the police depending on the situation. If I can't make a case for the neighbour to change his behaviour, I will not usurp the correct authority, even though I know I'm in the right, but I simply can't prove it. Playing by the rules, and maintaining your own limits of authority, is part of belonging to a civilised society. My concern is that the coalition usurped the proper authority and acted illegally (definitely another discussion) at worst, or set a an unwelcome precedent (unilateral regime change by a foreign country or force) at best. Who appointed the coalition as the world's policeman? I reckon we basically agree on things (Saddam was not a good neighbour), but you probably have a lower opinion of the 'proper authority' in this instance. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

"Come on, please, if you feel the need to ridicule John Lott," No, no, no, thats not my point, I hope my response to Kennedy clarifies this.

"I normally understand your posts, at least, if I don't agree with them." Likewise, its good to talk, exchange opinions, develop our own views, and understand one another better.

"Isn't the huge common argument against the war in Iraq that we should not have gone to war there UNLESS it was a threat to us directly?" No not at all, IMO the justification for the war was fumbled at the international and national levels. Had the coalition gained security council approval for the liberation I would not have had any issues whatsoever with the subsequent invasion. The point I have had made, ad nauseum, was that the invasion was not correctly justified, no hard evidence of WMDs, and no link available at the time to OBL. There is no doubt that the Iraqi regime was guilty of crimes against humanity, the problem was, when he committed those particular attrocities, he was our friend and ally, and that would probably have been quite embarassing for us to make a case for his condemnation. If anyone actually believes that the argument regarding WMDs is still robust, where are those WMDs now? Has the war actually moved the WMDs from a location and organisation that we had under very close observation(?). -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

"WMD's, terrorist connections, etc. were NOT really the reason the Bush Administration wanted to go to war in Iraq, what do you think WAS?" I think the whole thing was one of two options. The whole thing was personal between Bush (both of them) and Saddam. Or... Iran successfully manipulated the USA against its old enemy Iraq, and got one over on the USA/UK (the same pair that installed the Shah in the '50s) at the same time. Either option is pretty scary, and it may turn out that its a combination of several factors, but thats my current take on things. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

"What does the U.N. use for ITS justification for passing and then not enforcing resolutions and sanctions on Iraq that Saddam Hussein basically pissed on, making the U.N. look like toothless, impotent idiots? " My guess is that they didn't want to kill 10,000 civilians unnecessarily, when there was still hope for a peaceful diplomatic solution. Many resolutions are ignored, not many result in regime change and 30,000 dead or maimed people. Point being, if your going to point to a law as a justification for taking action, the action should at least be sanctioned by the law makers. We did away with lynch mobs over here a hundred years or so ago, we find them sooooo uncivilised. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

"I wonder what would happen if they tried that shit here in the good ol' U.S.A. " You'd probably get people requesting the resolution of the detainees in Guantanamo. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

Ah, John Lott... "In his bestselling classic, More Guns, Less Crime, John R. Lott, Jr., proved that guns make us safer. Now, in his stunning new book, The Bias against Guns, Lott shows how liberals bury pro-gun facts out of sheer bias against the truth." Okay, now I know a little of his background, and his interest in the subject. I wonder what Michael Moore might have to say on the subject, hmmm? Joking aside, I'd like to refer you to an article by Colin Greenwood, a leading UK proponent for relaxing our gun control... I was pointed to Mr Greenwood's text by Jonrich, in a previous discussion on the applicability of crime stats to gun control. ""It seems to be assumed that producing comparable time series or cross sectional figures for gun deaths is a simple matter. In fact truly comparable statistics are almost impossible to produce." http://www.wfsa.net/adobe_documents/Cross_Sectional_Study.PDF His study concludes that applying national statistics from differing cultures is like comparing apples with oranges. Or put it this way, gun control in Scotland, and a 5% reduction in crime. The two facts are linked only by my use of them in a sentence. And to give you a clue as to how volatile this subject is over here, I'd urge you to examine the manifestos of our leading political parties, and see where gun control rests in the big picture of our political issues..... -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

"I guess all the articles I've read over the last, say, nine years have been utterly misleading, then." I don't really know, but I'd say your interpretation of them is probably way off the mark. "I'll look for the disproof of your statement later, " Please, oh please, go and find the proof that our police force widely carry firearms, outside those authorised to do so by SO19. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

"Reads like an encyclopedic list of the countries of the world that the British Empire (tm) has colonized, raped, and fucked over "royally" since the days of yore." Somebody else said it, but yeah thats one way to admit your ignorance of the world outside your own frontiers, its a wee bit more than 2 countries would have been the point.

"Who thinks that was even remotely possible under any scenario?" Bush and Blair, they did ask for approval (twice?), but didn't get it. Then they used the UN resolution as a justification for action, thats taking the law into your own hands in my book. But like I said, deposing SH was the right thing to do, if only a cast iron justification could have been tabled.......ah but we've all been here before, and I don't see any point in re-opening those arguments. Not now, its five to five on friendly friday..... Have a good weekend all, cool beers, and gin and tonic await me, and anyone else who happens to be passing by Auchenblae..

"People in Scotland claim that the telephone is a Scottish invention, because Alexander Graham Bell was born in Scottland." Yep, we do, and up until today, I might have argued the case. But you have bust that poular myth, and it now appears that an Italian, Meucci, should really take the credit. I can see the link to the telephone being an American invention, Bell was working in Boston at the time, so fair's fair. How does Canada fit in with this claim? -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

We are good, aren't we? And humble too. Ever seen this?...... Scottish Inventions The average Englishman in the home he calls his castle, slips into his national costume, a shabby raincoat, patented by Charles Mackintosh from Glasgow, SCOTLAND. En route to his office he strides along an English lane surfaced by John Macadam of Ayr, SCOTLAND. Sometimes he drives an English car fitted with tyres invented by John Boyd Dunlop of Dreghorn, SCOTLAND. At the office he receives the mail, bearing adhesive stamps invented by John Chalmers of Dundee, SCOTLAND. During the day he uses the telephone, invented by Alexander Graham Bell, born in Edinburgh, SCOTLAND. At home in the evening, his daughter pedals her bicycle invented by blacksmith Kirkpatrick Macmillan of Dumfries, SCOTLAND. He watches the news on television, invented by John Logie Baird of Helensburgh, SCOTLAND, and hears an item about the U.S. Navy, founded by John Paul Jones of Kirkbean, SCOTLAND. He has by now been reminded too much of SCOTLAND and in desperation he picks up the bible, only to find that the first man mentioned in the good book is a SCOT, King James VI, who authorised its translation. Nowhere can an Englishman escape the ingenuity of the SCOTS. He could take to drink, but the SCOTS make the best in the world. He could take a rifle and end it all, but the breech-loading rifle was invented by Captain Patrick Ferguson of Pitfours, SCOTLAND. If he escaped death, he could find himself on an operating table, being injected with penicillin, discovered by Alexander Fleming of Darvel, SCOTLAND, and given an anaesthetic, discovered by Sir James Young Simpson of Bathgate, SCOTLAND. On coming out of the anaesthetic he would find no comfort in learning that he was as safe as the Bank of England, founded by William Paterson of Dumfries, SCOTLAND. Perhaps his only remaining hope would be to get a transfusion of guid SCOTTISH blood, which would entitle him to ask ''WHA'S LIKE US ? GIE FEW, AND THEY'RE AW DEID!" -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

Deposing Saddam Houssein was the right thing to do, however, it should have been done with the support/approval of the UN. Defending the rights of the 'little people' is a noble cause, its application in this instance is puzzling as many other brutal and inhumane regimes exist quite happily and still do business with our (UK included) governments. The whole WMD issue is a farce and I'm not even going to talk about it here, on this thread. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

Officially the wettest June since records began, here in the NE of Scotland. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

"What a farce it is that the country that sends more humanitarian aid around the world than any," Not according to the figures I have, seems like I'm making a career out of correcting you today, but I assure you, its not personal. Aid in terms of per capita, the USA is 20th on the list. Aid in terms of % GDP, 21st Aid in terms of total (which actually surprised me to be honest) USA is second to Japan. source, the much maligned UN, http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_eco_aid_don_gdp On the subject of human rights, there are a couple of wee glitches that upset your otherwise sterling record:- the maintenance of the death penalty, and the (up till recently) treatment of non-combatants at places like Guantanamo. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

"It's not myth." Point being, until you replicate the link that John posted, thats exactly what it is, myth and hearsay, essentially an unsubstantiated comment. "Make a legitimate argument for keeping on driving on the left, please. I'd like to see what you brits think about it, and how you justify it. " It works, we have been doing it for longer than most countries have had roads, let alone laws to manage them safely, and we have no intention of changing it. "Think about it: you'd have to see fewer traffic accidents and pedestrians run down, " Think about managing the change, the rebuilding of intersections pedestrian crossings, the re-education of generations of drivers and pedestrians, the change to our road traffic laws, the hazards of suddenly having millions of vehicles that are configured for RH drivers. I'd say the long term benefits (what exactly are they again?) would pale to insignificance at the carnage caused by people readjusting. See, what works in one country, is not necessarily applicable to other places....which was the whole point of raising it as an analogy

Why are you looking at Kerry's resume, are you considering giving him a job? Pass the tequila..... -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

"What about the survey that found people six times more likely to be the victim of violent crime in London versus New York City?" Hearsay, and urban myth until you can actually point people to a source for the survey. But I don't actually give a rat's ass, we in the UK are actually quite happy in our (apparently) vulnerable idyll. I don't want our gun laws to change, neither does Mr2, and probably neither does Skyrad, I'm not sure about MikeD, but I'd hazard a guess that he does not need the extra overtime that free gun ownership might bring. So, of the UK peeps who regularly partake in political debates here, none of us want to change our laws. What does that tell you? It tells me that there is a cultural difference in our respective approaches to firearm legislation. This particular dead horse has been well and truly flogged. We have been driving on the left hand side of the road since an act of parliament in 1772, perhaps you'd like us to change that as well? -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

"If you're from Scotland, you're not allowed to answer this question" Oh, okay, be like that then. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

You might also want to try the Citizen's Advice Bureau. They are free and might be able to advise on your legal rights in this situation. Mr2mkg seems to know a wee bit about our law, it might be worthwhile PMing him. Hope it all comes good for you.

"Agreed - he gambled, he lost. " As if that came as any surprise, he was well known for his brinksmanship, pre Desert Storm. He was playing the same dangerous game right up to the start of the liberation. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson