willard

BTW, just what is your point in bringing up injury stats in union vs RTW states? You don't honestly think that being one or the other is the only influence on workplace safety, do you? There are many other factors to consider such as industrial base, environment, etc. You say I keep quoting things from the Republican camp. Maybe I do, I don't know because I don't pay any attention to what they are saying. But I guess it all balances out with you quoting the distorted song and dance routine the unions have been trying to get everyone to believe. Think the unions tell you everything? Ever hear of Agency Fees? Ask your union reps about that one. That's one small item most unions don't want their members to know about. Don't like living in a RTW state? Then move! It's your choice, not mine. Just stop trying to force everyone everywhere to be a union member. Union membership is on a downturn. The reasons are many, but suffice to say that the decrease will continue but rest assured it will stabilize at some point before starting back up. Like Kallend pointed out, it will find a balance.

If you aren't calcutaing rates, then what are you calculating? I have given and example of why the rate is what tells the story, you claim to have taken a stats class, so what else would you use? As I said, the OSHA list I provided did not specify why the data for those states was not available. Since this debate does not entail losing money, a job, etc. the fact that those states' data are missing is unimportant. Mississippi was missing. Since their industrial base is comparable to Alabama, another RTW state, we can safely assume for purposes of this forum that the incident rates will also be similar. I inadvertantly missed the rate from one state while doing my averages. The correct figure is 4.6, not 3.4. Still right at the national average.

Post deleted. Please accept my apologies.

Was on a date once and poked myself in the eye. Was at dinner, went to nudge my glasses back up on my nose (which looks dumb enough), but I was wearing contacts that night. Talk about feeling stupid.

Never got one, but a date of mine did. About an hour into our first date her phone went off. She answered, said everythings good, and hung up. I must have had a stupid look on my face cuz she said that was her "rescue call". If she had wanted out, she would have made like there was an emergency at home and left. I'm glad she stayed.

I happen to believe that right is right even if everyone else is doing it, and wrong is wrong even if everyone else is doing it. Once procedural due process is taken away, there ain't nothing. I'm glad Luster is in prison. Trust me. And I give Dog credit for that - and having the balls to put his ass on the line to get him. Luster in prison....agreed. Dog gots balls....also agreed. Time for Dog to pay the piper for the dance? Looks that way.

And if he's wearing a beard and sandals they'll most likely put him on a bus to Mexico.

Hate to pop your bubble, but those figures are totals, not rates. It is incident rates that tell where the safest states are. I'll give you an extreme example, a purely hypothetical situation. State A has 1000 workers. State B has 100. In a given year A has 10 fatalities and 100 injuries. B has 5 fatalities and 50 injuries. Is state A more dangerous because it has higher totals? no, because when you calculate the rates and percentages, a worker in state A has a 1% chance of a fatal injury, and a 10% chance of any injury. State B, in the same year, a worker has a 5% chance of a fatal and a 50% chance of any injury. If you want to continue this debate I would suggest watching your tone. There is nothing wrong with the OSHA data I presented for the purposes of this discussion. It is accurate, it is reliable, and if you want to fill in the missing states then feel free to search for the data on your own.

Horse kick. Keep trying on getting your landings down. One thing that helped me was getting video and coaching from one of the best canopy pilots in the world. Happens to be a friend as well. J.C. Oh, and yeah...I know what you mean about missing out on 3D movies. One of the few things that suck about having monovision. ltdiver I don't want you guys to take this the wrong way, I'm not making fun, but 3-D movies aren't that great. They really suck. You know how the pictures on the cereal box show a really cool prize inside? Then, when you eat all that shitty cereal and finally get the prize, it's nothing but a cheap piece of junk? Same thing with 3-D movies.

Uh, like, which time? Cuz, you know, if you go more than two weeks without sex you're a virgin again. You knew that, right?

As it happens, I have spent lots of time in steel mills, and have also been in a deep pit coal mine, including crawling through galleries only 18 inches high at the coal face. (Also been in an iron mine, silver mine and a salt mine, but the coal mine was nastiest by far). Then you should know that there will always be risks involved in those jobs, and the responsibility for safety falls squarely in the lap of everyone involved. I have been involved in investigating industrial accidents both in factories and at mine sites. The overwhelming majority of the time the accident was the direct result of a worker ignoring basic rules of safety. Accidents don't "just happen". They are the end result of a long chain of events, and that chain can be broken at any link and the accident prevented. I employers are SO wonderful and safety conscious, I wonder why the Congress felt it necessary to pass the Occupational Safety and Health Act in 1970, and for the president to sign it into law? Don't forget OSHA and Clinton initiated the Ergonomics Bill for repetitive motion injuries, which Bush struck down. Repubs looking out for workers again. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't know. But let's assume that he did. Did you read the entire bill? I know I didn't, therefor I am in no position to play critic of whether it was the right thing to do or not. I'm pretty sure you haven't read the entire bill yourself. I am also assuminh the bill was struck down on it's own merits, which is rare these days since virtually every bill that goes before the President is attached to other bills. Maybe Bush liked the bill from OSHA, but it was attached to something that he would not sign. I don't know, and neither do you, so that leaves neither of us in a position to pass judgement on the case.

As it happens, I have spent lots of time in steel mills, and have also been in a deep pit coal mine, including crawling through galleries only 18 inches high at the coal face. (Also been in an iron mine, silver mine and a salt mine, but the coal mine was nastiest by far). Then you should know that there will always be risks involved in those jobs, and the responsibility for safety falls squarely in the lap of everyone involved. I have been involved in investigating industrial accidents both in factories and at mine sites. The overwhelming majority of the time the accident was the direct result of a worker ignoring basic rules of safety. Accidents don't "just happen". They are the end result of a long chain of events, and that chain can be broken at any link and the accident prevented. I employers are SO wonderful and safety conscious, I wonder why the Congress felt it necessary to pass the Occupational Safety and Health Act in 1970, and for the president to sign it into law? Because, in case you missed it in my last post, "The overwhelming majority of the time the accident was the direct result of a worker ignoring basic rules of safety." Humans, being humans, do stupid things. OSHA was created to remove as much of the opportunity for stupid mistakes as possible and to reduce the impact of any accidents that did occur. OSHA is aimed not only at an employer, but at an employee as well. But even OSHA can only do so much. Did you know that even after electric headlamps became available and affordable, many miners resisted the change and wanted to stay with carbide lamps, even though they could have lethal consequences if mathane gas had accumulated in a mine? I'm not saying corps used to ignore safety in favor of profits. That is a well documented fact. But it wasn't a Democrat thing or a Republican thing, it was something that went on regardless of political affiliation. It's just too bad that it took some tragic incidents, both in the workplace and on the picket lines, to bring change. Wrong again, the vast grouping of workplace accidents happens in RTW states, inferring non-union. Wrong about what? That the majority of accidents are because an employee ignored safety procedures? I think you should check the statistics, because that reamark was obviously made without data to back it up. On the other hand, I can provide proof that your assertion is BS. http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshstate.htm OSHA website with data on nonfatal injury and illness from 2005 showing number of injuries/illnesses per 100 full-time workers. As you will see, the national average of states included is 4.6 The average of the 19 RTW states included is 3.4, well below the national average. Hmmmm....seems you were wrong, doesn't it? Let me guess, you got your figures from a unions website? The RTW states not included, reasons not given, are typical farming/ranching states so we can safely assume their incident rate would be similar to other farming/ranching states. Those similar states had incidence rates close to the national average. If you want to prove a point, do it with facts and not with opinion.

(Insert salivating smiley here.) I would assume St.Peter guards the gate to that place?

I got 3/5 also. I should have known one of the others. Brain fart And the other one I missed was a stranger to me. But sounds interesting, I'll have to read up on it.

New drink..not for kids A woman and her boyfriend are out having a few drinks.While they're sitting there having a good time together she starts talking about this really great new drink. The more she talks about it, the more excited she gets, and starts trying to talk her boyfriend into having one. After a while he gives in and lets her order the drink for him. The bartender brings the drink and puts the following on the bar -- a saltshaker, a shot of Baileys, and a shot of lime juice. The boyfriend looks at the items quizzically and the woman explains. "First you put a bit of the salt on your tongue, next you drink the shot of Baileys and hold it in you mouth, and finally you drink the lime juice." So, the boyfriend, trying to go along and please her, goes for it. He puts the salt on his tongue -- salty but OK. He drinks the shot of Baileys - smooth, rich, cool, very pleasant. He thinks - this is OK. Finally he picks up the lime juice and drinks it ..... In one second the sharp lime taste hits... ..... At two seconds the Baileys curdles ..... At three seconds the salty curdled bitter taste hits. This triggers his gag reflex but being manly, and not wanting to disappoint his girlfriend, he swallows the now nasty drink. When he finally chokes it down he turns to his girlfriend, and says, "Jesus, what do you call that drink?" She smiles widely at him and says, "Blow Job Revenge."

Strap-on. More cowbell!! _________________________________ I damned sure, wouldn't want to try to put a strap-on, on a cow! Chuck

As it happens, I have spent lots of time in steel mills, and have also been in a deep pit coal mine, including crawling through galleries only 18 inches high at the coal face. (Also been in an iron mine, silver mine and a salt mine, but the coal mine was nastiest by far). Then you should know that there will always be risks involved in those jobs, and the responsibility for safety falls squarely in the lap of everyone involved. I have been involved in investigating industrial accidents both in factories and at mine sites. The overwhelming majority of the time the accident was the direct result of a worker ignoring basic rules of safety. Accidents don't "just happen". They are the end result of a long chain of events, and that chain can be broken at any link and the accident prevented. I employers are SO wonderful and safety conscious, I wonder why the Congress felt it necessary to pass the Occupational Safety and Health Act in 1970, and for the president to sign it into law? Because, in case you missed it in my last post, "The overwhelming majority of the time the accident was the direct result of a worker ignoring basic rules of safety." Humans, being humans, do stupid things. OSHA was created to remove as much of the opportunity for stupid mistakes as possible and to reduce the impact of any accidents that did occur. OSHA is aimed not only at an employer, but at an employee as well. But even OSHA can only do so much. Did you know that even after electric headlamps became available and affordable, many miners resisted the change and wanted to stay with carbide lamps, even though they could have lethal consequences if mathane gas had accumulated in a mine? I'm not saying corps used to ignore safety in favor of profits. That is a well documented fact. But it wasn't a Democrat thing or a Republican thing, it was something that went on regardless of political affiliation. It's just too bad that it took some tragic incidents, both in the workplace and on the picket lines, to bring change.

Yeah! PM the answers to me!

Hmmmm..... Left to right... 7.62x39 (steel case), 300WSSM, 308 Win, 270 Win, 3" 12 ga. Win Supreme. Was I close?

Strap-on. More cowbell!!

As it happens, I have spent lots of time in steel mills, and have also been in a deep pit coal mine, including crawling through galleries only 18 inches high at the coal face. (Also been in an iron mine, silver mine and a salt mine, but the coal mine was nastiest by far). Then you should know that there will always be risks involved in those jobs, and the responsibility for safety falls squarely in the lap of everyone involved. I have been involved in investigating industrial accidents both in factories and at mine sites. The overwhelming majority of the time the accident was the direct result of a worker ignoring basic rules of safety. Accidents don't "just happen". They are the end result of a long chain of events, and that chain can be broken at any link and the accident prevented.

Not everyone wants to be in a union. Sounds like they are trying to protect worker's rights. Exactly right. A worker has more to fear from pro-union people if he votes against the union (or resfuses to sign a petition) than he ever would from an employer if he voted in favor of a union. Oh yes, employers are SO benign. Try Googling "Haymarket riots". Kallend, we could sit at our computers for years posting links to sites listing violence by both sides. As far as Haymarket, correct me if I am wrong, as I remember from a paper I wrote concerning that in high school, it was the protest organizers who were ultimately found responsible for the violence that led to a police officer being murdered. As a said before, the only thing I would fear from an employer is loss of a job. Piss off a union enough and you could very well lose your life. Improper working conditions, care of employers, kill or maim dozens of workers in the US each year, in coal mines, steel mills, etc. Misfeasance or malfeasance, dead is still dead. Granted, there are instances even today where working conditions are less than mandated. But it is also upon each and every worker to make his job as safe as possible. To trust only in one's employer or union for safety is foolhardy. Have you ever worked in a steel mill or coal mine? Have you ever set foot in a steel mill or coal mine? As far as I know, this thread is about privacy in voting for or against unions in a workplace. Workplace safety is a whole bucket of worms in itself.

What did the Earth ever do to deserve being implanted with Britney Spears?

Sounds like he needs to spend more time in Bible study.

Never saw that episode. Don't watch much tv. But i can imagine what SP did with it!