skinnyflyer

''They have. You just don't like the answers they came up with.''-billvon yah because not having an explanation for building 7 really answered everthing. "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

any area above the breaking point not only has to break the undamaged structure below but it also has to accelerate it. keep in mind that the steel was maybe 1.5 times as thick at the bottom thanat the top. so anyting close to freefall speeds is ridiculous. "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

''Yeah, but I also took a class in logic. Check this out - You keep bringing up the NIST study to "prove" your case - but you also say that the NIST study is faulty. Therefore you have scuttled your own proof. ''-billvon the fact that the nist investigation- a group of people brought together with the purpose of demonstrating how fire and debris caused three collapses- have been unable, even with faulty logic, assumptions etc., to demonstrate how the buildings collapsed does help to prove my point. i hope your engineering classes were better than your logic classes. "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

billvon thanks for all the 'engineering talk' obviously there are lots of ridiculous conspiracy theories but assigning them to me is straw man. controlled demolition clearly meets occam's razor especially for building number7 and the fact that this was not even considered in any official investigation is a little more than passing strange. "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

Denial is a defense mechanism in which a person is faced with a fact that is too painful to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. hmm... it looks like controlled demolition, sounds like one and all the evidence supports that it is one (but to even consider it is crazy conspiracy theory) "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

''>not to forget but these nist experiments completely failed to take >into account the xthousands of tons of steel and its thermal >conductive ability. Careful there; you're arguing against your own thesis here.'' -billvon when a section of steel is heated, the atached steel columns will draw away the heat therefore making it more difficult to reach failing temperatures. i thought you were an engineer? "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

kind of like ..THIS ONE; "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

willard ''...only three steel skyscrapers ever collapsed due to fire. Hmmm...two took direct hits by massive fuel laden aircraft, and the other was right next to them, burning, and being hit with large chunks of debris from the other two. Damn! Must be the coincidence of the century! ''-willard the example of the empire state building was not offered as proof, but to show that a building being hit by a large plane doesn't necessitate collapse as the official story would have you belive. Frank A. Demartini, on-site construction manager for the World Trade Center-''The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this intense grid -- and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting. '' "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

any asymmetry results in an asymmetrical collapse as this video of a botched controlled demolition shows; http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/dakota_demolition.mov the idea that buildin7 self collapsed is ludicrous; http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/wtc7_collapse2.mpg "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

in 1945 a b25 bomber hit the empire state building; http://www.withthecommand.com/2002-Jan/NY-empireplane.html "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

in more than 100 years of steel framed skyscrapers there is no evidence that any have collapsed due to fire let alone into their own footprint, oh wait except in controlled demolition. "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

''You are the only one here who ever suggested that ANY steel melted. All others are telling you it did not melt and did not need to melt.'' -willard me and the pictures and the firefighters; http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/thermite.html and the nasa satellites. ''Most building that collapse DO fall in their own footprint unless a force inside causes the collapse to go outward''-willard read the whoe thread if you're going to post this stuff here; http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/collapsecases.html "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

not to forget but these nist experiments completely failed to take into account the xthousands of tons of steel and its thermal conductive ability. "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

this is from nist 2005( note that its difficult to keep track as they keep changing their theories over and over. ''Observations of paint cracking due to thermal expansion. Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 ºC: east face, floor 98, inner web; east face, floor 92, inner web; and north face, floor 98, floor truss connector. Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 ºC. ... Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 ºC. (p 90/140) '' "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

billvon-''You claim that molten steel was dripping down the building. Well, steel melts at X degrees, and it couldn't get that hot, so therefore you're wrong!" Now, no one suggested that molten steel was dripping down the building; that was an argument that the arguer made up so it would be easy to defeat (i.e. a straw man.) '' another great one billvon except; http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=cameraplanet%2B9/11 "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

if you study the nist report carefully it concludes that most of the fires did not exceed 200-300C but then their collapse model goes on to say that the steel had to reach 700C to lose enough support. "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

also from that article ''almost 12 weeks after 9/11 at least one fire is still burning, making it the longest-burning structural fire in history. [New Scientist, 12/3/2001; CBS News, 12/19/2001] As well as the hot spots, numerous witnesses describe molten metal being found at Ground Zero (see September 12, 2001-February 2002). '' "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

well here are nasa thermal satellite images 9/11 and the days after. notice the hot spots under wtc 1+2 and BUILDING 7 which immediatedly rules the ridiculous idea that these were caused by aluminum from the planes. multiple hot spots estimated to be from 800-1300F were observed. http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=robert_shaler if you're suggesting that the elements spontaniously came together to create thermite and melt the steel this strikes me as being highly unlikely and probably impossible. "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

billvon you've now resorted to using straw man arguments. aren't you the moderator? "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

''It also looks exactly like structural failure of several central elements, causing failure of the adjoining elements.'' its funny how it looks exactly like something thats never happened before.your arguments keep getting stronger.keep it up. ''..., believe whatever you want'' this one almost has me convinced. "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

did you miss me? despite all your insults and ridiculing none of you provided any scientific reasoning. no billvon i don't need to hear; ''Fire = hot. Iron/steam reaction = hot. Hot = molten metal'' again because science says; ''~1510ºC (2750ºF) - melting point of typical structural steel   ~825ºC (1517ºF) - maximum temperature of hydrocarbon fires burning in the atmosphere without pressurization or pre-heating (premixed fuel and air - blue flame)'' the proof is in building 7 which was not hit by any jet liner, what's that you say, it was the ruble from the collapsing buildings, fema-''The performance of WTC 7 is of significant interest because it appears the collapse was due primarily to fire, rather than any impact damage from the collapsing towers.'' so a fire caused all the columns to simultaneously fail making it look EXACTLY LIKE A CONTROLLED DEMOLITION, boy thats quite a coincidence, well, astronomical, improbable, ridiculous coincidences are the order of day so whats one more to the pile. so since this is the third largest engineering failure in history after the two towers how exactly did failure occur? fema-''the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence.'' follow the slide show; http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/b7/introduction.html "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

except that no jet liner hit building 7. -we can explain the collapse of building 7 through controlled demolition. it fits the data perfectly and it look exactly like a controlled demolition and the evidence supports this conclusion. -or we can invent a new phenomenon; some sort of pancake theory which fails to explain how the two towers fell and doesn't even attempt to explain how building 7 fell. but because of the implications everyone choses number 2 without even considering 1 "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

and no matter how you say it a steel framed highrise that DID NOT COLLAPSE will never be a good example for how steel frame highrises are supposed to collapse from fire so good night to you. "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

this is the reference for the alleged hijackers; September 16-23, 2001: People with Hijacker Names and Identifying Details Are Still Alive Reports appear in many newspapers suggesting that some of the people the US says were 9/11 hijackers are actually still alive: Hamza Alghamdi: No media outlet has claimed that Hamza Alghamdi is still alive, but his family says the FBI photo “has no resemblance to him at all.” [Washington Post, 9/25/2001] Saeed Alghamdi is alive and flying airplanes in Tunisia. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001; Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001; BBC, 9/23/2001] He says he studied flight training in a Florida flight schools for parts of the years 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001. [Arab News, 9/18/2001] The Daily Telegraph notes, “The FBI had published [Saeed Alghamdi’s] personal details but with a photograph of somebody else, presumably a hijacker who had ‘stolen’ his identity. CNN, however, showed a picture of the real Mr. Alghamdi.” [Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001] If this account is true, as of mid-2004 the FBI is still using the wrong photograph of Alghamdi. Salem Alhazmi is alive and working at a petrochemical plant in Yanbou, Saudi Arabia. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001; Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001] He says his passport was stolen by a pickpocket in Cairo three years ago and that pictures and details such as date of birth are of him. [Guardian, 9/21/2001; Washington Post, 9/20/2001; Saudi Gazette, 9/29/2002] Ahmed Alnami is alive and working as an administrative supervisor with Saudi Arabian Airlines in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001] He had never lost his passport and found it “very worrying” that his identity appeared to have been stolen. [Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001] However, there is another “Ahmed Alnami” who is ten years younger, and appears to be dead, according to his father. [ABC News, 3/15/2002] Ahmed Alnami’s family says his FBI picture is correct. [Washington Post, 9/25/2001] Abdulaziz Alomari is alive and working as a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines [New York Times, 9/16/2001; Independent, 9/17/2001; BBC, 9/23/2001] He claims that his passport was stolen in 1995 while he was living in Denver, Colorado. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001] “They gave my name and my date of birth, but I am not a suicide bomber. I am here. I am alive.” [Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001; London Times, 9/20/2001] Mohand Alshehri: The Saudi government has claimed that Mohand Alshehri is alive and that he was not in the US on 9/11, but no more details are known. [Associated Press, 9/29/2001] The brothers Waleed M. Alshehri and Wail Alshehri are alive. A Saudi spokesman said, “This is a respectable family. I know his sons, and they’re both alive.” The father is a diplomat who has been stationed in the US and Bombay, India. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001; Arab News, 9/19/2001] There is a second pair of Saudi brothers named Wail and Waleed M. who may have been the real hijackers. Their father says they have been missing since December 2000. [ABC News, 3/15/2002; Arab News, 9/17/2001] The still-living Waleed M. Alshehri is a pilot with Saudi Airlines, studying in Morocco. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001; Associated Press, 9/22/2001] He acknowledges that he attended flight training school at Dayton Beach in the United States. [BBC, 9/23/2001; Daily Trust (Abuja), 9/24/2001] He was interviewed by US officials in Morocco, and cleared of all charges against him (though apparently the FBI is still using his picture). [Embry Riddle Aeronautical University, 9/21/2001] The still living Waleed Alshehri is also apparently a pilot. [Los Angeles Times, 9/21/2001] He claims that he saw his picture on CNN and recognized it from when he studied flying in Florida. But he also says that he has no brother named Wail. [As-Sharq Al-Awsat (London), 9/22/2001] Mohamed Atta’s father says he spoke to his son on the phone on September 12, 2001. [New York Times, 9/19/2001; Chicago Tribune, 9/20/2001] Khalid Almihdhar: On September 19, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. distributes a “special alert” to its member banks asking for information about the attackers. The list includes “Al-Midhar, Khalid. Alive.” The Justice Department later calls this a “typo.” [Associated Press, 9/20/2001; Cox News Service, 10/21/2001] The BBC says, “There are suggestions that another suspect, Khalid Almihdhar, may also be alive.” [BBC, 9/23/2001] The Guardian says Almihdhar is believed to be alive, but investigators are looking into three possibilities. Either his name was stolen for a hijacker alias, or he allowed his name to be used so that US officials would think he died, or he died in the crash. [Guardian, 9/21/2001] Majed Moqed was last seen by a friend in Saudi Arabia in 2000. This friend claims the FBI picture does not look like Moqed. [Arab News, 9/22/2001] The Saudi government insists that five of the Saudis mentioned are still alive. [New York Times, 9/21/2001] On September 20, FBI Director Mueller says, “We have several others that are still in question. The investigation is ongoing, and I am not certain as to several of the others.” [Newsday, 9/21/2001] On September 27, after all of these revelations mentioned above are revealed in the media, FBI Director Mueller states, “We are fairly certain of a number of them.” [South Florida Sun-Sentinel, 9/28/2001] On September 20, the London Times reported, “Five of the hijackers were using stolen identities, and investigators are studying the possibility that the entire suicide squad consisted of impostors.” [London Times, 9/20/2001] The mainstream media briefly doubted some of the hijackers’ identities. For instance, a story in the Observer on September 23 put the names of hijackers like Saeed Alghamdi in quotation marks. [Observer, 9/23/2001] However, the story will die down after the initial reports, and it is hardly noticed when Mueller states on November 2, 2001, “We at this point definitely know the 19 hijackers who were responsible,” and claims that the FBI is sticking with the names and photos released in late September. [Associated Press, 11/3/2002] Entity Tags: Salem Alhazmi, Ahmed Alnami, Saeed Alghamdi, Robert S. Mueller III, Hamza Alghamdi, Abdulaziz Alomari, Marwan Alshehhi, Mohand Alshehri, Wail Alshehri, Waleed M. Alshehri, Majed Moqed, Khalid Almihdhar, Mohamed Atta "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs

what makes you think that falling debris would transfer all its energy in the form of heat maybe you think that through "Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs