maadmax

--Yes. That wasn't meant to demonstrate how life began - just a few examples to demonstrate how random matter can spontaneously combine to produce more complex matter. Negative, your examples can go in both directions without degradation to the specimen. That is not life or evolution. --But it means the opposite of what you said. It's like saying "I can prove there is no God because there is evidence that Zeus exists. I don't follow your statement, the phrase "god of the gaps" refers to phenomena being explained by unprovable events. Which can apply equally to creation originating from God or evolution. ...

People claim evolution as "the creator and designer of the universe"? I don't think I've ever heard that. That is the explanation I have heard over and over explaining how we and everything else got here. Which of course is based on an extrapolated observation of events occurring on the earth over a limited period of time. In a different setting confidence put in such theories would be called faith.

--Sure there is. --Simpler to more complex structures - crystallography, metallurgy, geology, chemistry. Plenty of examples there. --Self-replicating molecules - chemistry. Scripps just demonstrated how very simple organic molecules can replicate forever. I have to disagree, You are describing simple chemistry and physics, not mutation & natural selection leading to sentient life --More complex life - biology. There are plenty of examples of complex structures (powered flagella, wings, eyes) that evolved from simpler ones (osmotic pumps, arms, light sensitive patches.) OK, no disagreement, that is obviously evolution. Which in essence is a force acting on disordered matter and energy to produce an ordered more complex state. --"God of the gaps" is actually the opposite argument, that anything unexplained by science must have been engineered by God. that is why I said "god of the gaps" its the atheists explanation of the basic questions of origin and meaning using evolution in place of God. ...

>All it takes is a little faith in evolution. No faith needed, since science says it does not know how, exactly, the system evolved. All science can do is show that divine intervention (or an intelligent designer) is not _required_ to produce a bombardier beetle; evolutionary mechanisms can produce a bombardier beetle from similar ancestors. You can always say "I don't care about the science, I want to believe that God did it" and that's fine. Other than being an interesting observation, evolution doesn't really offer much information in solving the fundamental questions of our existence and why we are here. There is no area in the fundamental sciences that can produce a postulate explaining how random matter and energy will spontaneously combine to produce ever more complex life forms. The best argument I hear atheists using to defend "almighty evolution" as the creator and designer of the universe is ," I don't believe in any gods so therefore evolution must be the god of the gaps in explaining how we got here" ...

The probability that it did settle out in _some_ way is 1. So the question becomes - is there any evidence that this is NOT the way it happened? AGREED, The question of great significance now becomes, How did it all begin and Why.

Thanks, for the post, Speedracer. I, like most christians, accept evolution. Getting back to the original post, I'm not convinced that most Christians accept evolution, though I know that a lot of them do. As a Christian I have no problem with evolution. But I do have a problem with so called "scientists" that use an extremely limited understanding of the origins of life on earth to conclude that God doesn't exist. To claim that the subatomic plasma from the big bang just happened to settle out like it did boggles statistical probabilities. Those who reject God have used various rational throughout the ages. Evolution is just the latest flavor for those who want to reject God and whitewash their self deification. ...

It seems to me that if the "spirit" was non-physical and just used the physical body as a device, physical disease or damage might impair functionality (such as making you blind, like removing the lens from a camera), but it wouldn't be able to change the essence of who you are. Do you have a resolution to this problem? Cheers, Don Hey Don, the soul and spirit I read about in the Bible requires a body to process information and connect it to world around it. The Bible states that we live in an imperfect world for now with imperfect bodies. But at the resurrection we will receive perfect bodies like Christ's body at His resurrection. All the attributes of self consciousness that you mentioned will remain intact and function perfectly in the new resurrection body. ...

It is easily demonstrated that assembling the translations of various books that comprise any version of the 'Bible' to which you refer was done for specific reasons, none of which had anything to do with truth of any kind. Veracity was but an occasional byproduct. There are portions of the texts that are accurate, some that are wildly inaccurate, many that are heavily editecan't you get it? The Truth of God has survived all of the translations, re-translation, copying, re-copying, editing, re-editing, cultures and languages, erroneous scientific backgrounds. What we have works for those who can hear Gods call. It is a spiritual book with powerful spiritual insights. My life is proof of that. Call it want you will, in the end who gives a shit? It works as a means for communicating with God and at the end of the day that is one hell of a lot more important to me than some rhetorical chirping.d, and others that are entirely redacted. The originals of the various scriptures were written at various times and for quite different audiences. To treat the compendium as anything close to monolithic requires a true commitment to ignorance. BSBD, Winsor So what, can't you get it? The Truth of God has survived all of the translations, re-translation, copying, re-copying, editing, re-editing, cultures and languages, erroneous scientific backgrounds. What we have works for those who can hear Gods call. It is a spiritual book with powerful spiritual insights. My life is proof of that. Call it want you will, in the end who gives a shit? It works as a means for communicating with God and at the end of the day that is one hell of a lot more important to me than some rhetorical chirping. Oh yeah and I forgot to add, Have a good day :) ...

Any time neolithic to Bronze Age storytelling is subjected to the cold, harsh glare of critical evaluation, however, the whole set of concepts is revealed to be orders of magnitude more preposterous than any radio serial could ever be. BSBD, Winsor The authors of the Bible could only write what they knew. Their scientific knowledge was lacking but their spiritual knowledge was inspired by God. The purpose of the Bible is to convey spiritual Truth. Which is as intergral to reality as is scientific truths. ...

Where do you expect to go when you die? Same place I suspect you'll go . . . vanish into nothingness . . . no more than food for worms. And why shouldn't that be the case? What happens to a flame when you snuff it out? Does it go to "fire heaven"? Sorry, but when you're dead, you're dead. That's it. Show me any physical evidence to the contrary and I'll consider it, but be warned, I've seen quite a bit already and so far all of it is bullshit. And you know of course, as an educated person, you have absolutely no proof one way or the other. No instruments, no science, just logic based on what we see around us and feelings of what seems right. Science can describe life but it can't begin to define what it is much less recreate consciousness in the lab. When it comes to the death experience science gets a big FAIL. ...

Boy, you sure put me in my place. Your opinions are the absolute truth, as you are so kind as to assure me. Yep and I saved you a seat right next to mine.

Regardless of the axiom, you do realize that perception is not reality; right? ah yes, that is why I said it. That is all any of us have, a perception of reality. And I also know that big mouths and big egos are the best way to distort perceived reality.

Nah, more like half an hour, but it was well worth the time and $20. $20? Did that include the robes? That covered tuition and fees. Postage and robes were, unfortunately, extra. That does make a lot more sense, back to square one. You have no idea about what you attempt to discredit. For me a spiritual relationship with God is not a crutch, but a way to greatly expand my perception of reality. I do enjoy reading your bombastic attempts to impose your opinions that for the most part are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. ...

I went to school. For one thing, I am a Doctor of Divinity - Diploma and everything. For another thing, I have taken (and passed) many, many courses in Logic and Stochastic Processes/Probability and Statistics. Very impressive! Don't you ever wonder if your initial feelings that led you on such an intense search for God was real, and that where you have ended up was just a wrong turn along the way? ...

All gods are equally valid. If you have 1,000 gods, each of whose adherents claim "the other gods are all false!," each is making an equally correct observation. BSBD, Winsor Other than an unbelievable ration of arrogance what credentials could you possibly possess that would enable you to define spiritual reality? I have yet to read anything you have posted that would give the slightest inkling you have any clue of what you are trying to discredit . ...

That does not answer his question. The teachings of Christ are highly debatable. There are four official versions of his story and at least 2 unofficial ones... How do you decide which ones to believe or to follow ? What exactly is the grace of God ? I've heard that a bunch of times but I simply do not seem to understand the concept.... I can only answer that question for me, I can't answer it for you. Only God can answer the question for you once you hear the information and become receptible through faith. The Truth of anything will always be manifested by the works it produces. I study everything and rule nothing out. I trust God to help me discern Truth from evil. Grace is any good thing we receive that we don't earn or deserve. ...

Ok, then what do you believe in exactly? Why even follow a religion that has been so bastardized and corrupted over the years? How do you know which bits are good and which were added later? I believe in the teachings of Christ, that He is the Truth, the Way, and the Life. That He provided the means for us know God and have fellowship with Him. My reason for believing in God is as basic as my need to eat and breathe. It is a relationship I require. If you like some of the others here are repulsed by the idea of a personal relationship with God, then you are as much of a mystery to me as I & others are to you. I have found that the Truth has set me free and given me a spiritual life beyond my wildest expectations. The failings of others does not negate the Grace of God.

Do you believe in god? Yes I do. And at the same time I reject religion that has been created by some as a power grab to manipulate the masses. To some extent Christianity has been corrupted into a religion.

I was once a full fledged believer and I had my own "spiritual" experiences as you call them so I know exactly what you're talking about. If anyone has a broader spectrum of insight, I've been on both sides of the fence and you have not. You don't know what it's like to see the religion for what it really is.Quote Well then I have a question. Since you have gone full circle in your spiritual life and are now back where you began without God, what is driving you so passionately to convert other to your fabricated reality? Especially when your reality has shit to offer except anger and hate. Oh and by the way, scientific discovery is available to all. So concluding God does not exist based on our current technology is a naive delusion. ...

if religious types could just say what they mean without getting all formal and flowery, they'd likely not turn people off so quickly Aw man, that response is just bullshit! Is that the best you can do? Judging from your other posts I assumed that you were capable of more intellectually inspired concepts. There, how was that? Plain enough? ...

If you claim that god is unproveable then you are already dismissing all but the vaguest, wishy-washy, new-age versions of god. Most versions of god through the ages (and many current versions that a huge amount of people still believe in) plunge their sticky fingers right into the middle of this reality, wiggle them around a bit and do many tangible, physical things that would leave tangible, physical evidence. Proving God exists is a trivial pursuit. God is real to whoever perceives the desolation in their soul and is humble enough to accept the healing God has to offer. This life changing experience will always be a factor in how one constructs reality thereafter. ...

Now, if we were to talk about science vs spiritualism I think the discussion would be quite different. But spiritual is not the same as religious. I know a lot of atheists who are quite spiritual people. Don I agree. But it seems that the concept of a spiritual reality is a total anathema for most atheists in this forum. ...

Another thing that I find curious, is the statement that it's "the bane of my existence". I haven't felt any ill effects of my disbelief in anything supernatural. Have you? I totally question that "bane of my existence" statement. How would he know this? As far as I know we have never met in person. We haven't met, but if we did I am sure I would not know you as well as I do here in SC, nor would you ever recognize me in person. As far as proof is concerned, the best science can do is offer probabilities and only if you are not looking. The spirit is as real as you perceive it to be. ...

Very good, and so true on many levels.

Ok so you claim Christianity has a special form of faith?? really! What do you have to back that up with?? Faith is belief with out evidence. Second birth, like a small child?? Really what do you have to back up this claim?? Transformed?? Really! What do you have to back up this claim?? Let me guess. NOTHING And such is the bane of your existence. Physical phenomena is proven by outward physical results. Spiritual phenomena is proven by the inner transformation of the soul. ...