DSE

that was one of the funniest episodes of South Park ever!

Paralog can't communicate with the Alti-track...Protrack, yes. Altitrack, no Otherwise, I'd switch. For the timebeing, I'm running JumpTrack on my MacBook under BootCamp.

There is nothing wrong with faith. If it sustains one in times of need, if it supports the inexplicable, or if it salves the fear from contemplation of death...terrific. However; Believing in "golden plates" that only one human ever claims to have seen, whose mother tells stories in her journals of his "fantasies and mesmerizing imagination" as a young boy...who was also a gold-digger, and treasure hunter...who later was convicted of fraud on numerous occasions, who was known to have had many sexual relations with very young girls ie; 13-15 year olds even after he was married, who also claims to have powers beyond anyone on this planet.... To believe these rituals that J. Smith claims were revealed only to him specifically from God, when in truth, they're variations of the Masonic rites (and Smith was a member of the Masons); accepting a book that is quite obviously a plagiarized piece of work from at least two different books published 15 years prior to the "Book of Mormon"; to believe the stories of the "Lamanites" being directly from Israel but DNA has now proven this to be absolutely false, thus forcing a change in the wording of the Book of Mormon...are all but a few of the exceptionally questionable LDS beliefs. Then the Church taught for years that Polynesians were direct descendents of Israelites. The Church even brought hundreds of Polynesians to Utah to see if they could till the soil of the desert, and attempted to create a community of Polynesians in the Skull Valley desert, known as Iosepa (Joseph in Hawaiian). Hundreds of Polynesians died in the first winter. DNA has recently proven that Polynesians are of Asian/Taiwanese descent, not Israeli. Add to that the Book of Mormon purportedly being a "History of the Americas..." Hmm....Horses, pheasants, and other creatures were here 600BC but left no archeological evidence, and then miraculously disappeared for a 1000 years and then returned? A great war in which hundreds of thousands died, but there is no archeological evidence of any kind to support this fantasy? The church has more recently tried to explain that the battle that for over a century was believed to have been fought near the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, NY, was really fought in Central America. Oops, archeology proves that concept wrong too. And besides, how did the golden plates get from Central America to be placed beneath a rock near Palmyra, NY? God carried them there? Why Palmyra, of all places? What about the belief that African/black people are inferior in origin? That Satan is Jesus literal brother/same mother and father? Then there is the ceremonies for the Dead. Missionaries, members of the church, everybody together now...come up with names of dead people and we'll baptize them. This is a way to get hundreds of little girls and boys (OK, teens to be accurate) to go into the baptismal fonts beneath the temple and be baptized in the names of dead people. Kids brag about how many names they did. "I was baptized for 130 people" and they're proud, because they got dunked 130 times. People like Charles Shulz (Peanuts Cartoonist) Adolf Hitler, Pope John Paul (Seriously, most of the Popes have been baptized for the dead), hundreds of thousands of Jews...(The LDS church agreed to quit baptizing Jews killed in the Holocaust, but were later caught doing it anyway, prompting several lawsuits. The practice has allegedly again, been stopped). Outside of the Intermountain region, the religion is somewhat mainstream, even if the foundational beliefs are somewhat unique? People are normal, and might even occasionally be seen drinking a beer or something (unless it's my exwife, who happens to be a seminary teacher). In Utah, it's debatably the most repressive society in the USA. Remember, Utah still supports George Bush at the highest rating in the USA. There are some good things that should be mentioned. Mormons teach: Food storage for at least 90 days of survival, for when the cataclysm comes. Family values. OK, Utah has one of the highest divorce, suicide, prescription drug abuse, icecream consumption, and poor health statistics in the US, but those families that *do* stay together...stay together. Abstinence from smoking, drinking, sex outside of marriage... Tolerance for your fellow man (unless he's not Mormon) Gordon Hinckley was the king of "Be tolerant." He admonished Mormons "to learn to be tolerant of others." My response at the time was "Screw you, I don't want to be 'tolerated' but rather 'accepted.'" Famous Mormons include Gladys Knight, Glenn Beck, Donny Osmond, Billy Casper, Larry King's wife, Steve Young, Billy Barty...Mormons claim that Wilford Brimley is Mormon, but as his neighbor...he's about as Mormon as I am. There is a humorous story about the ceremonies for the dead... If people are baptized for the dead, what if they've been screwing off in heaven, or discovered to have been messing up here on earth? ### AP Salt Lake City Gordon B. Hinckley announced today that effective immediately the Church would start conducting Disciplinary Councils for the dead. I met with President Hinckley and asked him exactly what that means. Are they going to excommunicate dead people or disfellowship them? Is that even possible? "Yes, I know that it might seem a little bit weird to be hold 'Courts of Love' for those who are on the other side of the veil, however, many of of our members submit names of their deceased ancestors without even checking out the history of these people. The Church on both sides of the veil needs to be kept clean and pure from those who are not 'celestial' material." Hinckley said. "But I thought that those who hadn't heard the gospel while they were alive in this life would be able to hear it in the next life and then they would be forgiven for their sins and all would be fine with them." I said. "Well that's not how it works. These people would have had to live good upstanding LDS lives in order for that to happen..." Hinckley said. "But but...these people didn't even know LDS doctrine when they were alive, how can they be judged according to that?" I asked. "Well, here's how it will work. Let's say that your great grandfather John had never heard the gospel before..." "Yea.." "And he cheated on your great grandmother and was a womanizer. You submit the temple name, but you probably didn't do enough research to know that." Hinckley said. "Okay, and..." I said. "Now he has had all the ordinances and now been sealed to your great grandmother, but he cheated on her in this life. If he had been alive in this life, he would have received a disciplinary council to find out his true repentance. This gives him a chance to repent of this sin by proxy." "So how exactly is it done then?" I asked. "Come watch." So I followed Hinckley down the hall and under the street over into the Salt Lake Temple where they had constructed what looked like a High Council room. All the people were dressed in temple garb, so I felt a little out of place. "Okay, we now come to the case of the adultry committed by Milton Filmore Gurmon back in 1709 with a Ms. Hally, who was a prostitute. What do you have to say for yourself Mr. Gurmon?" The person in proxy for a Stake President asked. I looked over and saw that at the end of the table was an empty chair. "Don't you have anything to say in your defense Brother Gurmon?" The Proxy Stake President said. "C'mon, you must have something to say in your defense! Anything?" "Excuse me Brother Williams," another person at the table said.."On behalf of the deceased, and as one of the proxy High Council members for the defense that it was my understanding that this Ms. Hally was quite the looker and could be had at a reasonable price. Also, may I remind you all that Brother Gurmon had just had an argument with his common law wife regarding whose turn it was to clean out the latrine and she had threatened to kill his favorite goat, according to his journal." "I would still like to hear what Brother Gurmon has to say though, but since he refuses to talk..." "This is just crazy!" I said outloud, "There is no one in the Chair!" I protested. "We can't know that for sure." Hinckley said, "for all we know he really is just being nonforthcoming. "Okay then, how many of these Courts of Love have you held?" I asked. "About 500." Hinckley said. "And of those meetings, how many have actually had the accused say anything at all?" I again asked. "None, but I'm sure they are just being stubborn." Hinckley said. ### One last word on the subject: Local news is reporting that the Westboro Baptist Church (Yes, the same assholes that picket funerals of servicemen KIA...) are planning to picket the funeral of Gordon B. Hinckley. I sure hope someone is driving down the very icy roads near temple square and their brakes fail. It would be a shame if all those picketers were taken out. After all, they will be able to be baptized into the LDS faith once they're dead.

The secret handshakes, just like those you had as a child in your secret clubs, are the same concept; it's so you know who you're meeting and know if they're part of your group or not. In the LDS world, this is fairly important, as the handshakes take place through a veil, and you must give the correct handshake before being permitted through the veil. You can see the veil here and here. Secret Handshake 1 Secret Handshake 2 (notice the position of the thumb) handshake 3 It's not just special pants in the temple, it's special clothing that is never worn outside the temple except in your casket. Many people are buried in their temple clothes. I've never known an active member of the church who wasn't. Temple clothing is all white other than the apron, which represents the clothing Adam wore in the Garden, therefore it is green. It is referred to as a symbol of Satan and his power. Outside of the temple, those that have had their endowments are required to wear "garments." You can see what garments look like here. There are the crazies that will say that their garments will protect them from bullets and bad accidents. YouTube has 3-4 videos from people talking about various situations such as being in the war, and everywhere the garment covered, bullets didn't penetrate. There is one where a man talks about being in WWII and his plane crashed, and he was badly burned, except where covered by his garments. It is very important to note that this is not church doctrine. You'll hear bullshit general authorities within the church relate these stories (particularly the infamous liar of liars, Paul H. Dunn, busted for telling hundreds of lies from the LDS pulpit on international television over the years and later gracefully removed from his position as an active General Authority), but the concept of Garments protecting you from harm is not a church doctrine itself. To tell or see any of these things literally is life-threatening. The LDS members of this forum will be tremendously offended, and any older LDS person will be sickened to see that their secret ceremonies are now entirely on the web in video and textual form with photos. To them, I apologize for the offense, but I'm not the one who took the pictures, video, or recorded/transcoded the ceremonies in the temple. Until 10 years ago, each time the temple was visited, each person agrees three times in the ceremony that they'll take their own life as penalty for speaking of any temple ordinance at any time outside the temple. This includes being in church. You may not speak of any aspect of the temple experience outside the temple. Sidetrack:The Paul H Dunn chronicle is one that all Mormons should read/be aware of. He claimed to have saved a platoon in WWII, once the internet came out it was proven to be false. He claimed to have been a major league baseball player and struck out big name stars like Ted Williams. False. He claimed he'd saved Japanese kids in Saipan. He'd never been to Saipan. Paul Dunn told stories and wrote books. He was the hero of the youths of the 60's and 70's, including me. He quietly apologized for his lies, and brought forth the then-thought-dead concept of "Lying for the Lord." (Google it) Glenn Beck is more recently suspected of using this license to prevaricate, as is Mitt Romney.

Get it now...Walt Appel, "Square Asshole" featuring the bizarre hit "Two Chicks in MY Tub" and the follow up smash "Blind Chicks Dig Me"(Chihuahua Seeing "I" Dog), and "Round Peg in a Square Hole," (Ode to Billy) Only from Ronco. Order today, and get the Popeil Pocket Neck and Cheek Ripper at no additional cost!

I don't have an iPod but I think you can put any mp3 on an iPod. No doubt there are many here that could tell you exactly how to do it. Walt Import the MP3 into iTunes, and drag it to your iPod, or sync your iPod.

I'm glad I didn't pull my reserve, I needed to jump the next day. Margaret told me not to jump it for 14 hours, Scott Campos also advised me to not jump it, I left it sitting in the video room til the next day. Fortunately I had another rig. Lesson for me wasn't really learned by the advice not to jump, but rather seeing the woman that experience the in-air fire.

Utah residents no longer get a free pass unless they first prepare a home in Adam-ondi-ahman. Alas...Missouri is a nice place, but not for me. My heart lies in the desert. I need mountains, too. Not those pathetic bumps in the ground they call "hills." BTW, The Osmonds record label is Kolob Records. Moody, you have got SO MUCH to learn about the LDS faith. Aside from all the many references in the D&C, Journal of Discourses, the many writings of J. Smith, B. Young, etc...part of the temple endowment ceremony indeed, is to promise that each person worthy of the Celestial Kingdom will be a god himself. Some easily found citations: “…you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves,…as all Gods have done before you…”(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith) “…We are gods in embryo, and thus have an unlimited potential for progress and attainment. (Ezra Taft Benson) “The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself…” (Journal of Discourses) “…you have within your hands the possibility to become a god and pass by the angels and the gods…” (Spencer W. Kimball) If you wanna believe in Mormonism, that's fine. If it makes your life better, that's terrific. If it provides you some measure of comfort as you contemplate death, terrific!!! However, it's not a basis around which a government should be operated, nor a basis around which a society as a whole can function, and most importantly, I don't need people knocking on my door to knock on my life to tell me how miserable I am for not believing any more. I can't wait for the day an atheist knocks on my door to tell me that nothing is happening and I don't need to be afraid of anything. I hope he/she is wearing a tye-dye shirt and blue jeans. Or levi jacket, holding a bottle of cool centenary Oban.

Did I say God lived on Kolob? No more than I'd said anything about Gordon Hinckley before being shat on. you should attend Sunstone...Quinn gave an excellent dissertation on whether Kolob is literal or figurative. Of course, he's since been excommunicated. yes, I know that by common LDS belief, Hinckley isn't literally on Kolob. And you know that those that are celestial kingdom qualified are not assigned a planet over which to reign until the second coming. SPECIFICALLY, which information have I incorrectly provided? Write fast, cuz sure as hell I'm heading for Spirit Prison!

EXAFO, I feel compelled to explain that not even President Hinckley knows which planet he gets to rule over, that won't be determined until the second coming of Christ. At the moment, he is merely an exalted resident of the Planet Kolob. (Yes, this is a serious answer).

You clearly don't know the religion in which you claim membership. I suggest you spend some time with the Stake President or Bishop and get some facts, or research the church. You've apparently not had your own endowments, or you wouldn't make such a silly statement. Of COURSE one has multiple wives in heaven, and OF COURSE your non-member relatives are not with you in the Celestial Kingdom. Sweetie, you have SO much to learn about your religion... Baptisms for the dead are not truly "in the temple." You've never seen the Celestial, Telestial, or Terrestrial rooms...those are reserved for folks that have had endowments done. Any teen who is marginally worthy is permitted to act as a proxy for baptisms for the dead. It ain't even close to the same as the "real" stuff that happens after you've taken out your own endowments. What parts of the temple ceremony would you like me to spell out for you? I'm not too concerned that I'll be struck down dead (even though I agreed to commit suicide if I ever spoke of my temple experiences). Would you like to know my wife's secret name? Secret handshakes? (For accuracy, the suicide pact was removed from the temple ceremonies in 1996). Read D&C 132. Read the Journal of Discourses, V11, page 269. or just go buy a copy of "Mormons for Dummies." Until the LDS faith repudiates and removes those scriptures (or modifies them) which they certainly can do (after all, God's word is weak, and therefore needs several books to support it), and they have done (as recently evidenced by changes in the Book of Mormon due to DNA discovery relating to Native America,....polygamy is live, well, talked about, joked about in the world today. If former General Authority George P. Lee is to be believed, General Authorities even today, have had multiple women sealed to them in this life for purposes of the next. Additionally, anyone who has been married in the temple and divorced, but has not had a temple divorce, is still sealed to their former spouse. Imagine that! A man divorces his wife, marries another, but doesn't have a temple divorce from the first wife, he now has two in his pocket. Poor sucker... Tossed the one for life, but now he's stuck with her in eternity. Moody, send me a PM and I'd be happy to explain whatever you'd like to know about your church.

No, that will probably get you into a side spin.... Side stepping out the door with your back to the prop blast. That's kinda what I thought, which is why I was asking. Thank you for clarifying.

Yes. Holding your wings straight out in front of you as you exit. Tip your head back and as you see the ground, bring them out and fly down the hill and to your right at the formation. Ed One more time for the slow people just so I'm clear; Face straight out from door/90 to jump run, straight out gainer?

Living in Utah doesn't suck, as long as we're allowed to chase missionaries away from the door with pepper spray and baseball bats. I wish I was as biblically eloquent as this guy but since I'm not a follower of the bible either, I just enjoy seeing the sweat. I admit, the lifestyle in Utah can be repressive if you allow it to be. If I was a heavy drinker, smoker, or party animal...it would be tough. I'm none of those things. The environment is worth dealing with most of the weirdness, but at the same time, going to the store, mall, or downtown and seeing all the Stepford wives, robotic men, and cyborg-like emotions in those places... it surely could be weird. Fortunately, I live out in the mostly uninhabited desert area, and SLC is a long drive away.

I have met very few religious OR NON RELIGIOUS people who did not, in some way, act on their beliefs in a way that affected others - often adversely. Fixed it for you. When was the last time a non-religious person or organization passed a law based entirely in non-religion that affected your general well-being, lifestyle, or freedom? When was the last time a non-religious person knocked on the door at your home with a message about how screwed up your life was because you are religious?? When was the last time you were accosted at the airport or other public space by a non-religious person asking for money? Homeless people don't count, as panhandling isn't universally protected, but religious groups are. Even those in the non-religious religion category, of course.

So you feel it's appropriate to insult fags?

Hell just froze over!!!!

Outside of him being a hitman for the Danites? A couple of decades ago, I used to play in the Zephyr Club in SLC, Utah. There once was a hotel there, and that's where OP Rockwell was killed in his room, while drunk. There are so many fun stories about him, ranging from when he went to California to collect the tithes of the The Saints, lost it all, spent the winter selling booze and opium, and earned the money back because he was afraid of Brigham Young. That story alone tells how frightening Brigham must have been, if he could instill fear in a man like Rockwell. Rockwell served in the most significant fashion, I believe, by preventing members of the faith from joining J.J. Strang, whom many believe should have been the successor to Joseph Smith. Not only do many church documents support that belief, but Sidney Rigdon also supported it; he was Smith's second counselor in the church. He went into hiding from Rockwell. Funny thing is, today you ask almost *any* Mormon about Strang, and they'll know nothing about him. They won't know that Martin Harris, David and David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and even Smith's mother and wife (Lucy & Emma Smith) that he was the appointed replacement for Smith. He believed he was a King, and also "found plates" that he translated, just like Smith did. It's almost worthy of a comedic film, all those Hebrew and Aramaic plates that were buried/found in NY and IL during the early days of the LDS church. Between the Golden Plates, the Kinderhook Plates, the Strang plates, and a few others whose name immediately escapes me.... In short, if there had been no Rockwell to prevent Strang's continued successes, there would be no Mormon church as it is known today. It likely would be the same backwater group that was known as the RLDS faith, now known as The Community of Christ. They have a few hundred thousand members world-wide, and all of their leadership is a direct blood descendency of Joseph Smith. They have always allowed women to hold the priesthood (just as early mormons did), and have accepted black people since the Civil War. The regular Mormon church didn't, until they were sued by civil rights activists in the mid 70's. Rockwell screwed up...He shoulda just left JJ Strang and the Strangites alone!

Holy cow...I have to defend Utah mormons?? Nope, they're amongst the MOST educated people in the USA. Very low high school dropout rate by national comparison, and when you consider the number of students per teacher, it's considerably lower (percentage-wise) than most states. Teen pregnancy is slightly lower in Utah and surrounding states than the national average. Substance abuse is also lower. However, suicide is grossly higher for young males, wavering between 3rd and 6th in the nation (not per capita). CDC isn't easily forthcoming with the statistics, even though I've had some really good pointers from someone here on DZ.com. Disclaimer, watch for a new book entitled "Better Off Dead: A Book of Mormon Suicide." It details why I believe suicide in the Intermountain region is so terribly high. Most folks don't quite realize there are two LDS faiths. The one in Utah, and then the one everywhere else. I'm fairly sure that anyone who knows Utah LDS people and LDS people from other places will agree with me. Utah Mormons are very racist, particularly those that have long-time, deep roots. Only yesterday did I hear the local bishop comment "Have your black guys...." Or "Jerry Ferguson's Mexicans..." sorts of phrases are heard. Yes, it's constantly 1955 in some parts of Utah, but Utah is the single most connected state in the USA, according to the State of Utah, and Forbes says Utah is in the top 5, so choose who to believe. Mormons are definitely educated for the most part. Sheeiiittt. My older brother is not only a PhD, he's got TWO of em'. I have two cousins (one of em' a mormon Bishop who is a senior rocket engineer for Thiokol, and his little brother designed the Rav for Iomega. They're stinkin' brilliant. Yet another cuz that invented Chumz, the eyeglass holder. He now builds green water pumps (pumps that don't need outside energy and don't create pollution) They sell em' to the Mexican government. I guess I came out the idiot, but did do the college thing in Utah.

A back flip in the same manner you'd do a gainer from a Skyvan (more or less?) Most of my jumps are from a KA. I think I'd be more, rather than less worried doing a backflip in a WS (haven't been able to jump the KA since getting my new WS)

I didn't say anything about Hinckley. Feeling defensive? I didn't/won't say anything about Hinckley's death, I knew the man when I was younger, and have respect for him, despite any experiences I have related to his religion. He was as good a man as he could possibly have been given his choice of religion. Moodyskydivers post intimates that non-mormons are are allowed to go into the temple for weddings, and that's simply not so. No, many temples don't open every"couple of years for remodeling." Some temples, particularly the new McMormon pre-fab temples, open up every 10 years for remodeling, and more rarely, the older temples. I failed to mention my adoptive father is a temple president?

Walt, thank you for the laugh. Not only do I enjoy our PM exchanges, but this post.... What's even more funny is I'm watching parts of Barbarella at the moment. Believe it or not, it's abou to be re-issued (again). OK, I'll STFU now.

EXAFO, you can't see your children married, period. Not a chance in hell, quite literally. You can't enter any part of the temple. Until recently, you couldn't even go onto the temple grounds, being forced to watch your child come out of the temple after the ceremony from outside the temple gates. It's made very clear during the temple ceremony that if your children or parents aren't "of the covenant" then they will be separated from you in heaven and you'll be given to someone else. In other words, not only can you have multiple wives in heaven, but you'll be given new parents if they're not members of the Church. Contrary to Moodyskydiver's last post no one, not even a member of the LDS faith that has not been issued a temple recommend, may enter the temple. Ever. Under any circumstances, once the temple has been consecrated. The temple is open for a short time prior to consecration, so that the general public may tour it. Certain aspects of the temple are not placed until after the temple is consecrated. Moodyskydiver, NOT ONE NON-MORMON ALIVE TODAY, HAS SEEN THE INSIDE OF THE LDS TEMPLE IN SALT LAKE CITY. ** If you're a member of the faith, you know this. You've never, ever been inside a consecrated temple because above, you say you've never paid a tithe. You cannot be issued a temple recommend without having paid your tithing in full. **Apostates not included.

I dunno, but I sure wish I could figure a way to get my cat to use it for hairballs. Woke up this morning to a warm, wet, smeary hairball hacked halfway across the kitchen floor.