georgerussia

This is a brilliant point. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Fixing your mistypes again. The evidence that I posted links to support my claims is for example here or here. Therefore your claim (which you present as a "fact") is plain straight LIE. Yes, everyone can see that you post baseless claims, which are no facts. And if you think everyone is going to read all your 12,000+ posts in attempt to find whether you indeed presented some facts as you claim here, you need a reality check. The Earth was round even when everyone believed it was flat. Fact is something which is true no matter how many people believe it is not. (and just for the record, your claim is not valid anymore :)) I, however, now understood why Brady behaves exactly the way they do. In part, why they do not have any dialogs with pro-gun lobby. The reason is that pro-gun lobby is not capable of any kind of dialog which does not match their agenda. So it seems to be the only way which would actually work. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Of course! "Treat others as you want to be treated by them", as your Jesus allegedly said, and it would be naive to expect anything else back. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

I do it often, like here or here right in this thread (maybe I should have just said "I provided links even in this thread" as Ron does?). However when you spend some time searching for the facts or combining the references, and get a copypasted reply like this, or no reply at all, it provides zero incentives to spend more than thirty seconds replying to such individual. After all, if a person obviously does not respect you as his opponent, why waste extra time on him? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Same with you. I have provided you data and reference to Google, and the fact that you are lazy and don't bother to look something up does not change the fact they have been provided time after time. They have been provided and you keep bringing lame excuses so you can ignore them. (and of course you being lazy does not equal something not happening) *yawn* yet another lame round of repeating the same Ron-style bullshit. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Sorry, dude, I have no intention to search the whole thread to find those posts where you provided links, so this is yet another groundless claim from you. This is because I do not consider you an opponent worthy of discussing those topics with, and I suggested long time ago that in this case you might want just to stop discussing with me. Almost nothing you provided during our discussion was constructive, and all your replies to me mostly contains bragging and groundless claims. And this is what you are and will be getting back as well. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Well, Ron considers such things as "proof" when he states them. Thus he should accept those things as proof when others state them. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Oh, I seen it somewhere. You can find it in Google. By your own definition, this is proof. Now prepare to hear in every following post that I provided you facts and references, which you conveniently ignored! * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

It was sarcasm, with the purpose to show the hypocrisy of your typical gun nut. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

I suggest you ask them if they support making chemical or biological weapons available to everyone the same way as guns are. Maybe even nuclear bombs. Or just simple Army grenades. After all, objects do not kill anyone, people do. And people were, are and will be killing others even without them, so why not? You might want to have a nice pack of grenades in your home just for fun. Why are they scary of a grenade which is just an object? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Do you know any country where you have this "real freedom of expression"? As far as I know, not ever kind of expression is covered under First Amendment in U.S.; for example child and obscene pornography is not covered, while regular pornography is. Regarding free speech, a recent distasteful joke from Russia: Obama meets Medvedev and tells him about democracy in the USA, and free speech and how Russia should change the laws to provide the same free speech. Being asked for example, Obama says: - We have free speech in USA, which is protected by our Constitution. For example, anyone can go to street with a banner saying "Get out of White House you stupid nigger Obama" and he will not be prosecuted for his free speech. - Russia has the same free speech - replied Medvedev - Anyone in Russia can can go to street with a banner saying "Get out of White House you stupid nigger Obama" and he will not be prosecuted for his free speech either! * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

You sound like you have experience in this field; could you please share your experience in researching how homicide statistics is collected in different countries, and how many country laws are you familiar with? Just for example, you're now using term 'homicide' instead of 'murder', which is the case for Russia (there is a single line in the official statistics, which also includes "attempted homicide"; probably there is internal statistics which keeps them separated, but it is not disclosed). Is it the case with U.S. or other countries you're comparing to? Interesting. You were given a direct link to the document from official government web site. All you needed to do is scroll down to a specific page, select the text from the PDF file, open Google translate and copy it there. You would see the result yourself. On the contrary, you and others from your camp accused me of "ignoring the facts" just because I did not spend a day researching something you mentioned without any references at all. This is the great example of hypocrisy. What you are doing is trying to twist the facts to match your theory. It doesn't work however, and it is obvious you're trying to compare apples with oranges. For example, you just ignored this argument referred by your own post which indeed shows how gun ownership effectively reduces murder rate! You're comparing with sprees, which are obviously murders, so you should compare number of gun murders, not just deaths (which may include manslaughter). Are you saying there are 10k gun murders in a year? Could you cite a source then? I do not know anyone who would have to actually defend themselves against ex boyfriends (maybe it is part of local dating culture? lol), and in this case if a restraining order does not help, I guess why a gun would. But anyway - your way of thinking is like "my way or the highway". That's exactly how Brady bunch looks like, and that's why I'm saying you're not different - just on the opposite side. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Yes, it is important to me. And distorting one's nick is childish. You can do better. Which crime officials? Are you telling me you can read press release from Ukrainian MVD? Or you mean "crime officials" from NRA? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

You are really smart, you know so much about Google! So why didn't YOU do it before posting? You'd know it is in Ukraine, and would not post wrong country, and saved yourself some grief. Indeed. Fifty people killed in fifty years with a gun is not spree either. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Yes, it is. Nobody knows if you mistyped the town name (and talking now about a different case), or a country name (and talking about the same case), so the clarification was necessary. It is always nice to see how politely you react when YOUR mistakes are being shown. No, we do not. One person who killed fifty people in fifty years with bare hands is not a 'spree' by my standards either, even though he killed more than 7, and didn't even use a gun. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Seems like you do not even understand then what is my standard, but still applying it. Again, so much for "facts". * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Not at all a deflection - you were talking so loud of presenting "facts", but apparently didn't check your "facts" before posting. No, 20+ people being killed during a year is not a spree (difficult to do it at once with a knife; they would definitely be able to do so if they had a gun). * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Don't you have any self-respect? This is just LAME. And since when you were appointed to set up MY standards? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Dude, Dnepropetrovsk (which you mentioned) is not in Russia. Check your "facts" before posting them. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Yet another lame excuse when being shown the _facts_. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Murderer of Gun-Shop Owner Gets Life in Prison Two suspects confess in gunshop slaying Gun shop owner slain in Methuen JUSTICE SERVED: Second accomplice in murder of gun store owner gets 27 years Trial set to begin in shooting range murder Shooting Range Murder Suicide In Orlando A caretaker at the shooting range in Kannat Tabla went crazy and started shooting people Two face charges for police station murder A year ago your camp would also mention "or military base". Not anymore, I think. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Five years is significant for Russia at this moment, the country is changing pretty fast. Unfortunately MVD online statistics only goes back to 2006, so I cannot verify 2004 numbers. Also did you read the rest of the posts, regarding "attempted murders"? If you did, why do you still compare raw numbers, as it is obvious that you're comparing oranges with apples? 1% of what? * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

I tell ya what, if I ever need your advice on any matter, I'll let you know. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Actually it is the opposite - for example, local pro-gun members Ron and mnealtx wrote several times that guns do more good than bad because three (out of 40+) school shootings were stopped by people with guns. Of course most of those shootings would probably never happen if guns weren't available so easily. What I'm trying to do is to estimate benefits and drawbacks of gun ownership for an average person who does not own or need any guns. So far gun owners claimed that having guns available makes others more safe, and recent killing sprees kinda disagree with this statement. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

Three issues here. First is that their statistic is too old. Nov 2009 statistics (sorry, Russian only) says that 2009 "homicide" rate is ~15K, excluding December - i.e. twice less. Second, and more important - in Russia "murder" and "attempted murder" are put into the same statistics category as you could see on page 3 - the line with 14978 -11.3 says "murders and attempted murders". Unfortunately MVD does not publish separated statistics, and this makes it quite useless in comparison. Third, there are also classification issues. "Murder" in Russia includes the following: - Intentional murder (article 105); - Murder committed by mother when she kills her newborn (article 106); - Murder in the state of affect (article 107); - Murder when you fight against someone who attacked you first, and you exceed what the judge considers "reasonable defense" (article 109); - Not intentional murder (article 110). Includes a lot of things. For example, recent fire in Perm killed 150 people, and there were 400 people inside the club. The fire inspector which signed up the club permit is now charged with 150 counts of non-intentional murder (which will add 150 to the statistics). It also includes drivers who run over a pedestrian, or killed another driver in a crash - Leading to suicide (article 111). Yes, it is also here. All those things make it into the "murder" statistics. I wonder how many of those do not count in the murder statistics in the USA? And of course if you still think it is related to guns, how would you explain Brazil there - which apparently has pretty of guns? As you can see, even the rate which includes attempted murders is quite close right now. Nineties were quite wild in Russia, surviving the day was indeed something to be happy about. Things, however, change. LOL. I don't even know what is "Kellerman's 43:1". If you read the posts, you'll see that was brought by mnealtx, who claimed it was "debunked", and I was interested to see his arguments, hoping to at least see some actual facts produced by him. His "fact" was really funny though. I never thought you can "prove" something to be true by just typing it in Google and counting the number of pages repeating the same phrase. 1,000,000 lemmings can't be wrong? You bet. Same mugger on a third strike may as well shot his victims from behind - it is easier, less risky and more reliable than using a knife - in which case carrying would make no difference. And, as I said, my concern is not muggers. My concern is people like Cho and Jing Hua Wu. * Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *