RiggerLee

Tom, please give him a chance to sober up and appolojise before you ban him. His post are normally some of the few worth reading. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Have you cut a hole in your "Roof" to give your self a "Drying Well"? Sorry I don't know what else to call it seeing as your "Loft" is in your basement? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

We were discussing this a couple of years ago on a slow day in the loft. My partner was talking about ways to knock off the bank across the street. The police force in this town is a joke. I don't think any of the natives have a triple diget IQ. This is the shallow end of the gene pool. I may not be able to spell but we have two of the best minds for 50 miles around and should be able to pull it off. We were debating the marits of tunneling in vs knocking it over. I pointed out that sooner or later the FBI would step in and we would have to deal with more chalenging opponents. Personaly I lean towards hitting the bad guys. First off they can not simply go to the cops and say some guy stole $20,000 that they had hiden in their crack house. If the cops do become involved the investigation would be on a totaly diffrent scale. They will be prone to assmueing that some other nonspicific bad guy did the dead. I had an idea for a nice quiet approach. Sneek up to the house in the night with a bottle on Carbon Monoxide. Find the intake to the airconditioning unit or a cracked window, base of a door, or just drill a hole. Just start a nice steady trickle. It's oderless. You don't need a high concentration. It acts like a poison. It builds up captering the red blood cells. It can even happen over a couple of days. In this case you want it to hit over a couple of houres in the early morning. You just start to feel tired and shitty and go to sleep. What probable happens at that time any way. With luck you can just walk in. If you do it in the winter and pick a low rent one where they don't have gas heat you could set up a little habatchy with charcoal in one of the rooms like they were useing it to keep warm or cook. No questions. Worst case if it goes loud they wont be worth a shit and then your back to the , some bad guy did it plan. Your right finding the right people is a tough one. No one keeps his mouth shut when he gets cought. The real trick is to find some one that keeps his mouth shut when he doesn't get cought. A lot of people get nailed when they open there big mouth or let the money burn a hole in their pocket. The key is to find some one with the kind of disaplin to stay on the down low. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Don't do it. Normally the grommets are pulled toward the top of the container by the loop. Placeing the loop in the bottom flap alows the top flap to fully extend. A lot of Javalins do not take this well. It puts more preasure on the risor covers and the tuck flap on the main may not close well. A lot of the problems people have with risor covers and main flaps come from over sized mains with too long of a closeing loop. this is the same thing. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

This is in the classifieds under spare parts. I'm not trying to give the guy shit. In fact I applaude his thrift. He's even cheeper then my partner Tom Who is a cheep son of a bitch. We laughed so hard I had to share. For Sale: Used VX 90 Line set Price: (MO) Shipping: Buyer Pays Shipping Used Vectran Line set from VX 90,

This is basicly a retraction of a opinion that I stated in another thread here in the gear forum. It was in one of the original threads on the Javelin RSL, see link in post. The RSL had absolutely nothing to do with the fatality it was just part of the fall out. In telling that story I made a speculation on the original accedent and haveing now seen the rig I've found my self changeing my position on this and did not want to be responcable for any missconceptions about it. There has been more then enough missdirection away from the original issues as it is. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Just saw the rig today. Have not gotten ahold of Stanford yet. I think the burn is what they missed. We had to work hard with the light to make that show. It is not obveous. With out that bit of info I beleave they just misinterprited the torn stitches. I hope to speak to him soon. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Following PIA Tom posted a question. Now as it happens that post turned into the big Javelin RSL issue that we are all familiar with. A request was made in that thread for more information about the incident. I was surprised to see it and how long it had already grown. I went ahead and wrote up a description up the accident and the aftermath of it. I told the story as best I could but I can only tell it from the point of view from which I saw it. There was nothing in this case that was cut and dry. There were even more lose ends and contradictions then is normal. In telling it I tried to be clear on what we knew for a fact. I also tried to be clear on what was speculation, both my own and that of others. The post was long and the accident was only one small part of it. Never the less it reignighted the controversy about what really happened. I got a phone call and was talking to some one that had the opportunity to examine the rig. The gear has now been released from evidence and I have in fact had the chance to see it myself. I’m doing an about face and changing sides on this debate as to what occurred in the actual accident. This is what I wrote in the original post: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2681081;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; Some of these things are boring and almost closed cases from the start. This one was odd and left some unanswered questions. You’ll hear fifty different stories from fifty different people but here is what I think we can say. He had a malfunction on his main. He attempted to cut away. One riser for whatever reason failed to release. The reserve deployed. It entangled with the main. The other riser released but the canopies were now entangled. At some point the reserve handle had been pulled. He spun in and did not survive. In the end that’s all that can really be said about the incident. Now let’s talk about the gear. There were several repacks on the rig since I packed it and removed the RSL. One at least was a cut away. The cut away handle had been replaced with one from RWS. He’d specifically requested one with their larger ridged tube inside. It was inspected by Gene Bland from the FSDO, Master rigger from way back, and John Stanford, manufacturer and master rigger from just about the beginning of time. Bland is good but a little out of date. Stanford is just about the sharpest rigger I know. They do not miss things. They inspected the gear down at the morgue. They found no problems with it. The risers seemed it be in spec. When suspended the left side cut away about 1.5 inches of pull after the right. That sounds just about perfect. I don’t like to speak ill of the dead, especially a friend, but I think he just got casual. He pulled until he felt himself drop and punched the reserve. The rig did exactly as it was supposed to do. It chopped the right side first. The reserve went up and the main as it spun above him entangled with the reserve. I have no doubt it happened quickly and by the time he realized what was happening it was too late. He just got sloppy and failed to pull his handle to full arm extension. He failed to fully cut away before he himself fired his own reserve into the streamer above his head. Now that sounds harsh as shit but that’s how I read it. There are plenty of other stories to explain what happened. Every one has their own idea and there have been some doozies put forward… They tried to tell every one that it was not a riser release problem but a packing problem. Supposedly they found damage to a side flap and some stitches popped at the corner of the tray? Now I guess it’s possible that Bland and Stanford missed something but let me tell you I’ve watched Bland inspect a rig following a fatality. He used a magnifying glass. He chided me for not keeping one in my rigging kit for that purpose. Between the two of them I don’t buy that they missed any thing. Never the less the next time Jay, now the Sunpath rep, showed up there they had a new theory. He was going around trying to tell every one that would lessen that it was the packer that had killed Appleton. The Packer and the long break lines of his Specter. So Jeff was the next one on the chopping block. They had this elaborate scenario where you laid the break line like this and pulled the flap like that, and passed the flap through the loop and closed the other side with all the line clearly visible on top of the flaps, some one had to help him by the way he needed a third hand to make it work. And then when he when he goes to demonstrate how it turned into a horseshoe all it did was unstow the toggle. I never saw him succeed in making it work. He could not replicate it. Never the less he was still going around telling any one that would lessen that Jeff, a perfectly good packer and rigger, had killed Appleton. And the more you tried to reason with him the louder he would say it as if he could make him self right and win the argument through greater disable power. So they had no problem feeding Jeff to the lion’s ether to save there own reputation when as far as I’m concerned it was never in doubt. I jump a Javelin always have. And like I said, I think the rig did exactly what it was supposed to. Perfectly… All that I can say is that when I wrote that I believed it. It was my opinion and I stated it as such. Today I saw the rig and the damage they were speaking of. I’m now firmly on the other side of the fence. It’s not the first time I’ve ever been wrong and probable wont be the last. It can be hard to understand how there can be so much disagreement over what you would think would be clear and obvious facts. Unless you’ve ever been involved in an investigation it’s hard to convey how confusing the evidence that you’re trying to work from can be. It’s not just that there are peaces missing from the puzzle but you are constantly being handed peaces that don’t belong in the picture. There are contradictions. There are always witness statements and they never agree. It’s not just a matter of filling in the gaps it’s about filtering out the noise. Stanford and Bland saw the gear. The rest of us did not. If I was going to chose two people to look at it I couldn’t have picked any one better. Never the less they did miss something. There is a line burn around the left flap. It’s not big. It’s a subtle melting of the surface of the fabric. It’s interrupted line of glaze where the fabric wrinkled it only touched the tops of the folds where the flap was squeezed. There is a slight bowing in the stiffener as well. The tare is in the stitching closing the bottom corner of the main tray. I’ll attach pictures. The burn is not obvious depending on the light. Taken alone the damage to the corner of the tray can be mistaken for damage on impact. Let me clarify that. There is dirt on the back of the rig. With out the burn, impact it the only explanation that I, and probable they, could come up with. It’s a little week. You wouldn’t expect to see it with the main tray empty but strange shit happens when you hit that hard. With the burn it all makes since. You can even see how the inset of the Odyssey harness put tension on the seam and tore the stitches. So we have two very good master riggers that come back with one story. The rig is shipped off and Sunpath come back with this totally different explanation. There are eyewitnesses that are telling us all kinds of things including statements that contradict Sunpaths horseshoe story. Who do you believe? It really didn’t help things when a Sunpath rep. showed up here with this story from Javelin. He wasn’t a rigger and wasn’t a good representative for them in this. It didn’t help that he felt the need to grossly exaggerate all of his descriptions of the damage. Telling people that the whole side flap had been torn lose from the rig and that the flap had been sawed in half by the line just wasn’t productive. We’d all ready spoken to Stanford and every one has a lot of respect for him. Nobody believed that he missed the fact that the container was practically torn in half. We were all standing there looking at the guy like he had a third eye growing out of the middle of his head. The completely ridicules scenario he was trying to sell of how the break line had been packed around the side flap went over like a ton of bricks. Basically both he and Sunpath came across looking like a bunch of fools. Now imagine this in the context of all the RSL issues that were going on at the time. Nothing made since and no one could buy the contradiction in the statements. In the mean time Sunpath had put together a report that they were sitting on. I’ve spoken to some one that has seen it. It’s a straight up evaluation of the container damage that fully explains all of this. I’m told that it is a well-written report that clearly details the reality of the damage and how it occurred. Then at the bottom there is another paragraph that states that they believe that the Fat Daddy cutaway handle that had been installed in the rig was the cause of the whole accident. This is in total contradiction to the findings of the rest of the report and was clearly added later by someone in the management of the company. I don’t have any doubt in my mind at this point that it was a horseshoe. Sunpath was right in this all along. They just didn’t do a very good job of representing their position. I still don’t buy the break line. I’m more inclined to believe that it was one of the suspension lines that half hitched around the stiffener in the flap. You need the tension from the riser to make the half hitch work. This isn’t new. It has happened in the past. That’s why we have stows on our bags. It was not uncommon to just use the locking stows and coil the rest of the lines in the tray. That lost popularity from incidents just like this. It’s not common but it does happen. There have been a hand full of incidents over the last few years on modern rigs. It almost comes under the heading of a shit happens act of god kind of thing. If there’s any thing to be learned from this it might be to stow the risers closer to the bag. Less free line in the tray can help to avoid this kind of problem. Another thing we might look at is redesigning the construction of our flaps. Wide stiffeners in the side flaps expose you to this kind of problem. This is not a Javelin issue. This is an issue that can affect many of the rigs out there. In the future we might do well to design rigs with more taper to the side flaps. If the actual stiffener is smaller and inset into the edges of the flap so that it does not go all the way across the flap it might be less prone to this problem. I hate to say it but Sherman might have had something with the Racer and the construction of the side flaps. Even then he still has a grommet there and the softness of the flap is dangerous in and of it self. What we really need is a more substantial flap perhaps built with a stiffened ballistic cloth that is tapered so lines will slide off. If it has a plastic stiffener in the end it should be shaped in a way to help lines slide off rather then to form hard corners to create a place for lines to lock. You know what really bothers me more then any thing else about this is the round about way that all of this has happened. It feels like we have run in a circle all around the world only to come back to where we started. What has all of this been about? All this RSL shit. All this business about the cut away handle. The hiding of information. All these games about TSO’s and alterations. And where has all this hair pulling gotten us? What has Sunpath achieved with all of this? I feel like I’m trapped in a fun house in the hall of mirrors. I hate it and just want to smash them all so that I can see the truth. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

It's interesting that the skiing analogy keeps comeing up. It is in fact perfect. A few years back there was an artical in... Outside Magazine. I don't know if you remember it but it was following the fatality in Ouray, CO. at the ice park. I'll spare the detailes but there was threat of a big law suit. Just the threat was enough to ripple through the insurance companies causeing rate hikes that shut down many out door busnesses. The article was about the history of liability in this country. In point of fact all of this shit started with skiing. A guy got paralised and won a law suit setting a presadent for liability law that has fucked us all. There's more. The ski resorts did not retreat and cower. They were able to get a law passed limeting the liability of a resort. They did this by standing togather not by hideing in the shadows and bickering. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Built one last summer. The lines can be shorter then you would imagion. The skirt tends to be tight and makes it hard to stear with three vents and it needed a bit more venting to stop the osolation. Note the more recent photos of the irving canopy have a mesh vent band on each side. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I'm pretty sure that it all comes down to the data package that they submited to the MIDO during their original aplication. No one out side Sunpath has been privy to the comunications that have passed back and forth between them and the FAA. They have not seen fit to share the details of any of it. If it was truly and clearly in stone then I can not understand how they could have ever waffled back and forth all this time as they have. I tend to think that this has all been driven by the manufactorer rather then by the FAA. I doubt any other manufatorer would chose to open this can of worms. I honestly have trouble understanding why Sunpath has chosen to turn this into as big of an issue as they have. I'll have to leave it to some one else to make that call to them. I've got enough hit men on my trail as it is. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Right now as it reads there is no answer. As it is writen right now you are in the same boat as the rest of us. They have made no provision for DOM or SN of the rigs affected. There is no way at this time to tell if a rig ever had an RSL. You should contact them your self on this question. Perhaps they could publish a list of SN exempt from this. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

THIS IS A QUESTION FOR LAWYERS. The good news is that a master Rigger at our drop zone has agreed to sign off the removal of RSL's. He has already planed the wording he will use. I can't remember the exact phrase which I herd second hand but he is trying to word it in a maner to limit his liability. First what is the real exposure the a Master Rigger faces in this. Second Can some one, a lawyer fermiller with the cival laws on liability recamend a phraseing that will both meat the requirments of the letter fromm Sunpath and not put them at any more risk then nessasary. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I have receaved approval for a couple of alterations through the local FSDO. At the time Gene Bland said that it was not necasary to compleat a 337. He alowed me to write up the design and drawing my self. Stanford signed them off as a master rigger and Gene approved them with just a date stamp. This is a alternative to receaving approval through the manufactor. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

In the past that was every ones understanding. The whole story changed when Appelton went in. Their new stand on the issue has no wiggle room in it. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

That's exactly what it means. Find your RSL or get it signed off. Otherwise your fucked. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Oh, and will any one sign mine off? I jump a Javelin and I'm grounded by this too? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

This is going to be a big issue. Sunpath has taken a firm stand on the RSL issue. This leaves many jumpers in a bind as their RSL was removed and possable discarded lond ago. For some people this happened long before they purchesed thier rig used. There is of course an out. If you can find a Master Rigger willing to sign this off as an alteration then you can continue to jump the rig. Now here's the catch. Sun Path has very clearly stated their position on this. Read there original written responce to here: http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2681081;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; It's about half way down the page. It makes very clear what their responce will be in the event of an accedent. Any one signing off on this alteration does so against their strongest recamendation. When the court case comes up they will leave any one doing so hanging out to dry. So here's the deal. If you are a Master Rigger you can legaly do this but they are forceing you to accept all responceablity and liability. I can't think of another instance where a manufacteror has done any thing like this. We are haveing a hard time finding any one willing to sign off rigs around here. Who out there is willing to do this. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Another question that has come up. Early javelins that were built without a RSL? Acording to this they are unairworthy. Did Sunpath violate there own TSO when building them? If they are still airworthy how do you identify them? How do you seperate a legal rig from some one bullshiting you trying to tell you that it was never there? This is going to be a pain. I don't know about you but they just grounded 75% of the Javelins on the DZ. It's four days to the weeknd. I only have three RSL's and the DZ manager has had his head in the sand hoping this will all go away. He hasn't told or e-mailed any one. It's going to be a mess Saterday morning. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

The word of God has been delivered down unto us. In other words it's up on the web site now. Please note how they are very specific about useing a terminal reserve pin. The reserve ripcord must be of sunpath manufacter. I guess that's in their line drawing as well. So much for interchangeability of tso'd parts. Isn't it interesting that they use the bent pins for their FXC instalations? Honestly I like my Javelin but they seem to be determind to make it difacult to own one. Lee Sorry I ment to include the link. http://www.sunpath.com/downloads/bulletins/RSL_answers_2-27-07.pdf Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

This is to Eather. You can jump with way more then that you woos. Now on to the real subject. What was the weather like? How long was your weather window open? How long did the climb take you from camp? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Huh? What visible portion are you refering to? The ring goes around the cable. I'm not sure which comment your responding to. Every one does understand that the rings have to be on the flap right? That with out them to directionalize the pull you can just bend the pin 90 deg and break the RSL. You just wait I'll bet in the next six months you'll find a rig where some one just put the RSL on with no rings on the flap. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I just got back to the shop. We got this in today from SunPath. It came as an e-mail. So it's not a signed document but it's probable good enough. I'm surprised they haven't posted it here them selves. They say that a more formal statement will apear on there web site soon. If nothing else this seems to be a fairly clear statement as to where their position is going to fall. I have no doubt that they've aganised over this and the repocusions of it. There is going to be whining but the pain should be over rather quickly. So... any body got stack of RSL's out there? Lee, I understant that there has been alot of talk recently about this subject. A more formal address and clarification will be made soon on our website. I will answer your questions below: 1. If a RSL has been previously removed is it legal and air worthy to jump? Yes, however the removal of the RSL or any RSL components must be noted on the packing data card by a MASTER RIGGER. This is considered an "alteration" to a TSO'ed system by the FAA. And, only a master rigger can "alter" a TSO'ed component. 2. If a RSL has been previously removed is it legal for a rigger to repack the reserve with out the RSL in place? Yes, as long as the removal of the RSL components has been noted on the packing data card by a MASTER rigger. 3. Is it legal for a master or a senior rigger to A) assemble or B)remove the RSL on a Javelin or Odyssey container? You have 2 questions here: A) assemble: Yes, a senior rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITH an RSL Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITH an RSL Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITHOUT an RSL Yes, a Master rigger can assemble, pack and maintain a system WITHOUT an RSL as long as the removal of the components is noted on the packing data card by a MASTER RIGGER. B) Remove: Yes and no. ONLY a Master rigger can remove components of the RSL from the system as long as that MASTER rigger notes it on the packing data card. In these questions I use the word removed to mean not including the RSL in the assembly of rig when the ripcord is installed. If the Velcro or guide rings have been removed from the container how does that affect the legality and airworthiness of the rig? I think the answers above have addressed this question. If the Velcro and guide rings have been removed will you provide instructions and approve the reinstallation by a master rigger? Yes, but we prefer it done here at the factory. Is there a DOM or serial number at which your position on the RSL changes if so please clarify your position on each of these questions. NO The Sun Path policy regarding removal of the RSL components still holds true. The Javelin and Javelin Odyssey harness/container system incorporates the reserve static line as part of the complete system and permanent removal of this part is highly discouraged and NOT recommended. However, the last line in that letter will need to be amended to read, "Our reserve static line is built with a snap shackle for easy disconnect from the main riser, in the event of an emergency situation. Please note: the USER or OWNER cannot legally remove the RSL lanyard unless he/she is a master parachute rigger. UNLESS, the user is in an emergency situation. More to come on the website, I hope this is what you were looking for? DAVE Dave Singer Engineer SunPath Products, Inc Phone (813) 782-9242 FAX (813) 788-3057 dave@sunpath.com Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

This came in as a pm but it's relative enough that I thought it wouldn't hurt to share. Also I thought it might not hurt to clarify what I was asking. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess the question is what could be the consequences for these people personaly and the DZ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The attorneys need look no further than Part 105. The FFA all but spelled out the people that could be held responsible. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- § 105.3____ Definitions. For the purposes of this part— Parachute operation means the performance of all activity for the purpose of, or in support of, a parachute jump or a parachute drop. This parachute operation can involve, but is not limited to, the following persons: parachutist, parachutist in command and passenger in tandem parachute operations, drop zone or owner or operator, jump master, certificated parachute rigger, or pilot. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael I responded: Yes, that is where the FAA would begin. I'm not sure where that would leave a private lawyer. They seem to in some ways have a lot more freedom in who they name in a law suit. On the other hand when the waver is signed the signe gives up a lot of rights. One of which is the right to sue some of these people. Now we come to the question of whether the waver covers 1099 employs? Does any of this constatute grose crimanal neglegence? If so how far can the law suit go? I guess it's mostly a question of cival law rather then the FAA. At least those are the questions I was trying to get at. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I’d like to add a question. We were having a conversation about the possible consequences of all of this. I’m specifically looking for some one with legal insight, i.e. a lawyer. Let’s say a guy goes in in the next six weeks while we wait for a ruling from the FAA. For the sake of argument well say it was a no pull after a cut away. SP is confronted by the lawyer of the vindictive family. They cave and run for cover behind the statement that the rig was illegal with out the RSL. The question we were kicking around is what could this mean? Let’s take the drop zone here as an example. Guy showed up from out of town and filled out a waver. A rigger from the drop zone did a gear check and signed off on the waver that the gear was airworthy and good to jump. A packer on the floor packed his main. He is an employ of the drop zone with a 1099 on file. He is working under the supervision of yet another rigger, employ of the drop zone. The poor guy gets on a plane and goes in. So where are we at. We’ve got the rigger at home, the rigger here that signed off the gear, the packer, the supervising rigger, and the pilot. All but the rigger at home are in one way or another employs of the DZ. Now let me clarify that. There are actually several companies that own different things and the paper work is probably good enough to hold up. The waver is pretty good. So I mean thy are doing the best to defend them selves. Still I know there are limits to all of this. I understand that if they can prove grows negligence that a lot of the protection granted by the wavers and the incorporation goes away. I guess the question is what could be the consequences for these people personaly and the DZ? Could this actually crack the structure of the drop zone and attack some of the real assets? If the DZ was not as well protected or they found a hole in the bookkeeping or the paper work how bad could it really be? Is it limited to the people involved or cold it go higher? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com