RiggerLee

I just caught up on this thread here. I think it's a very good question. How tight is too tight. I've struggled for years with tight rigs. I feel strongly that people should jump larger canopies but I also feel that the containers should also be larger. I think that we have not only hit a point of deminishing returns in terms of comfert but also in function and safety. I think this is something that should be lookd at in greater detale but the problem is that there are too many variables. I actually gave a lecture on some of this at PIA. I wont bore you but part of it was about how the shape of a packed canopy changes as size and other perramiters in its design change. It was about how to compensate in the pack job for these changes in order to make various canopies fit into diffrent bags. It was Two houres of incoherent ramballing and I don't think I really scratched the serface or fully convayed the ideas. But what I'm saying is that the question very quickly becomes complicated. I might be able to pack that rig, but can some one else? Can they do it at Eloy? Can they do it after it's had a ride? They grow when you jump them you know? Ever plan to wash the rig? And just because I can pack it, arange the bulk in the bag, etc. does that mean that the system is compatable and airworthy based soully on the fact that it will function reliable when I pack it? What about when the guy has a ride at nationals and all he can find is some kid that just got his ticket and is working on a tarp in the sun. Is the system unairworthy if he can not pack it or it will not function reliably if he does manage to close it? So what's the answer? Make a list? And what? exclude all the canopies that you don't manage to mention? Based on whos skill level? Based on what part of the country, humidity, heat, etc. Oh wait, this canopy doesn't fit even though it 's on the list. Those canopies aren't all the same size are they? Ok, so I'm being a little flippint. But I would like to see this discused. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Could some one please exspane the next to last paragraph to me? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Apples and oranges. In some ways a 7*7 cable is way easier to cut then cypress cord. Example, take a pair of bolt cutters, cut the cable then try it on cypress cord. The video looks real impressive but it's actually pretty silly. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I'll share another story with you about cypress cutters for all you nervous nellies out there. A few years ago I built a set of recovery systems for another company where we used cypress cutters as the primary release. Every time they droped one they fired a cutter and cut a loop. I don't know the exact number but they must have done hundreds of drops with those things. They were going after a mil contract so it was worth the money to them and fireing a $75-$107 cutter to save a $20,000 antina made sence. Out of, I don't know, 500 drop test I don't think they ever had a cutter failure. If one had failed with a $20,000 package I'm sure I would have heard about it. This was basicly cutting a reserve loop with a spring loaded pilot chute just like in your container. We had a tight pack job with very good loop tension. I'm not sure I'd trust them to cut a lose three ring loop like the current project. Also please note that this was back when the first big wave of cypresses were hitting the 12 year mark. We were buying up every 12 year plus cutter we could get our hands on. So it's not like these were freash off the shelf. You don't have to worry about your cutter getting old i can tell you that they still worked for us. So although it's not as cool as the M2 I can bear witness to what was basically a fairly exstensive test program of cypress cutters all the way up to the 12 year mark. I have not had the chance to work with the vidgil unit so I can't speak to them but other then a few growing pains as they were getting going, which they seemed to handle in good form, I've never had cause to think badly of them. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

This thread is a fun read perticurly looking back on the history of this. First when Mirage moved there cutter above the pilot chute. The demand that this be done with all rigs. Then the cries of out rage after poland demanding that all cutters be moved bellow the pilot chute. Now that we redesign loops, use multiple cutters, continues loops, etc. Good laughs. In any case this thread started out with a good sereious question of cutter design. It would seem odd that John Sherman be the voice of reason and be makeing the only practical and resonable suggestion on the whole forum. The idea of redesigning the whole universe round the AAD to try to compensate for the failure modes of bad cutters seems ludecris. It seems much more reasonable to address the root problem. I would like to nominat a cutter for concideration. The cutter I vote for is the one on the M2 from Mars. First off let me say that I don't work for them. I'm not a dealer. I don't have a hourse in this race. Here's what I know. I'm working with some people on a parachute recovery system. I needed a way to remote command drogue and riser releases. I was looking at diffrent electricly comanded load releases, pin pullers, etc. I was also trying to get them to include an AAD as an independent back up system. In the end they went with pin pullers but I was trying to sell them on the idea of just useing a loop cutter with a normal three ring. Well to make that fly I'd need a cutter that can reliable cut a lose loop with little or no tension on it. I was at PIA and there was a lot of talk going on about cutter desgin and I was takeing a keen interest in it. I got to talking to the guys at M2. They were telling me about their cutter. It's actually a flat faced piston. It's designed to pass all the way by the hole cutting the loop at two places in a shearing motion like two pares of sisures. and they were claiming that they didn't have a min loop tension. They'd only brought a hand full of cutters not really exspecting this level of interest in cutter design or in their cutter in perticular. So they were able to do only a hand full of demos while there. So when ever they got a few interested people they would pull out a battery and fire off a few cutters. I was there with the dutch guy that was doing a study on cutter design watching this one day. I was sceptical to say the least of their claims. But I watched them stick a cypress loop in the middle of their cutter and with it just laying lose in the middle of the table blow the fucking thing in two. Note how I frazed that. It litterally sent the two halfs of the loop shooting out in diffrent directions off the table. clean cuts. Not a single fiber cought in the cutter trapped by the blade. This was with zero, I'll say that again, ABSOLUTELY FUCKING ZERO LOOP TENTION. Then I watched them do it with 1000 lb HMA, they were kind enough to do that just for me as I had issues with aerodynamic heating on the project I was working on. Same thing. Bang! Two peaces of line, he actually cut a section of break line off his canopy to do this, go shooting off the table in opposit directions. I was sold on it. Look it up. Talk to them. Talk to Alti 2 the US dealer. I don't know much about the AAD it self but it's been around for 8 or so years in their millitary so it's not an infant. But it's the cutter that really got me. There wasn't really time to work it into the current design but I'm still hopeing to make use of them in future test. Looking forward to shooting them into space and see how they do at 400,000 feet. With luck the M2 from Mars will be the first space AAD. And if It can do that I figure it's good enough to go in a rig. Lee Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

There was a lot of descusion in the tec meating at PIA on loop length/delay times. It only takes a small change of loop length before you start haveing signifigant delays. It's the oposit problem but the same result. and just for the record, I think delayed openings have played a part in more fatalities then we think. I can look back on couple that I witnessed that make sene now only in retrospect. There are several cutter designs out there. There's more to the hole cutter thing then people ever thought. It's another subject that was under heavy descusion. I was lissening to a Dutch guy. who was kind of doing a study on it. And just as a personal observation, check out the cutter on the new M2 AAD. I personally sat there and watched them blow loops in half with no tension of any kind just lieing lose on the table. Both Specter and HMA. They claim that they cut in shear at both edges rather then against an anvil like the knife and circuler cutters. Don't know shit about the AAD but the cutter seems to be the nicest on the market. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

The above advise is by far the more senceable but if you are determined to be romantic... Call the dealer that he orderd his last jumpsute through or call the manufaterer, PF. They'll have the measurements you need or close enough. If he already kind of has colors to his rig and jump suit then that should be easy. you're probbable far more qualified to color in the drawing then he is and I garenty he'll be in love with it by the time he lands on his first jump. NO PINK. But most importantly start makeing a list or all the favers, sexual, meaneal, and other wise that he is going to owe you. You might want to start shopping on line for that coller and leash seeing as you are going to own his ass. Keep in mind the wait time. before the surprise. In fact you might be able to use that to your advantage if you went the other route. They don't cut and build that jump suit till they last week... plenty of time to keep your new slave under your thumb if you are woried about the length of his gratitude/memory. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

What exactly defines it as a Lap Rig? Is there some where a deffinition of the diffrent rateings based on the orentation of the container during the pack job? Also it may turn out to be more then just a cureosity. I had a guy that was trying to get me to set him up a harness and chest rig for his powered parachute (trike). None of the back or seat parachutes were very comfertable in the seat. A lot of kit planes are real tight in the cocpit. Many people just can't wear a parachute in one. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Ok, I'm headed for the airport. still looking for a wings and a mirage g3. from now on you can reach me at 512 705 5598 cell or 512 772 4293 skype Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Down here in Austin liveing on the lake. I've got Jon's Hobi 16 here and I've still got 37 in the bay. I went to Nepal earlier this year with Amy. Between sailing and kyacking I walk down and read in the private park by the lake. Ive got a range right down the road where I can take the new rifles to play with them. Just got a new one in 300 win mag I need to go try out. I've been building a couple of super sonic drouges for those guys, I need to send them a bill. And when I've got nothing else to do I watch my heard of dear play on the lawn below my balcony. It's a rough life but some body has to do it. all though I will admit most of my time recently has been spent in front of the fire place with a blanket. Comeing to Reno? Still got your old G3? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Biguns old wings is actually a fairly easy repack because of it's size. But I'll take it if nothing else shows. I think I'll be speaking on thurs maybe fri. I'll have my cell with me. Call me there or give me your number and we'll find each other there. 512 705 5598 Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

The obsesion with small gear has been out of hand around here for a long time. The rigs around here are tight. And frankly we've just learned to deal with it. Collectively we've come up with a number of tricks to reduice the pack volume of the reserves. We've had to. Over time there have been several dealers that have reguarly sold rigs at max or even one size over the recamended maximum. Is this leagal? Most manufacurers have resisted setting hard and fast rules. I almost wish they did. At one time I tryed to get a strike going but it would have ment grounding half the rigs in north Texes and nobody was going to stand for that so we just learned to deal with it. I don't want to get up on my soap box about people not jumping big enough canopies, and containers to hold them. Honestly they would be happier if they would lessen to me. But in lu of that I'll be happy to share the tricks we've come up with to deal with the challenges that walk in the door around here. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Who's going to PIA? I'm suposed to be giveing a symenar on advanced packing techneaques dealing with tight problem rigs but my shelf is bear. I called John Storie He'd initally told me that he had a wide selection on the shelf but now as I get ready to leave he says he's empty as well. It's ice storms all over Texas nobodies getting repacks. Tired of watching the manufatorers reps blow smoke up your ass demoing rigs with undersized reserves? Bring me that tight mother fucker you curse at and I'll show you how to make it fit. I'm willing to share the secrets of the universe with you but if you want to make this happen I need a selection of rigs. Looking for a wings, Mirage G3, Javelin. Looking for legitamently tight real world rigs with reserves about one size large. Hopefully with a selection of reserves as well PD, Raven, Smart, etc. Part of the lecture relates to difrences in length and bulk distrabution based on stablizers, trim angle, cord, and span. Looks like the lecture will be on Thurs, and posible Fri. Get back to me with contact infomation. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I don't generally talk bad about other riggers but... Hands down the worst/most creative work I've ever seen has come from out side the US. Keep in mind that there are places where there simply are no riggers. Oddly the second worst group is manufacters. It sounds odd but I've seen more mistakes and creative practices come straight from the builder/big dealer then any where else. Part of it mmay just be the fact that other sets of eyes have not had the chance to catch the mistakes. Some of it is riglets becomeing creative with out adiquit supervision. But the bottom line is that I've seen a lot of scary stuff show up in the mail. If you've got the cash it might not hurt to double the number of eyes that look it over before you jump it. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Were can I get a cypers style cutter for type seven webbing? In the past I've seen them for up to one inch tubeular but I don't have a sorce. another question, does any one know where I can get high temp fabrics nomex or kevlar or another high temp aramid. I'm looking for stuff in the 200 denier range? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

This has been really fun to read. Where was all this fire and fury a few years ago when it was so fashionable to move cutters from their obveous and natural position to a new location above the pilotchute. Do you reallize how many rigs had to be modified? Whole countries passing laws about it. And there were several deaths sited in that and I think there were more unreported. I think I saw one thoue I didn't recanise it at the time. And now you want to go the other way. I feel like I'm in an old cartoon. The one where he's on a board or a rock acting like a sesaw. Running from end to end trying to keep the thing from falling. It's comical. And you say the APF jumps to conclusions. So lets see. You redesigned the rigs to try to correct a rigging error. Then you banned an AAD to try to fix a cutter probblem that might or might not exist. Now you want to ground riggs so that an AAD can be jumped... This is the best entertainment around. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Lets count and see how many direct knock offs we can remember. Back when Vector 2 was the king of the hill there was the Xerox. What was the name of the racer copy that you couldn't pull the rip cord on? Pacer? I seem to recall a south american one that started with a V? Volcan? I mean those were direct hands down look alike copies. I'm not even counting the ones that were miner esthetic changes. It does surprise me that there are no direct knock offs today. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Looking at the picture I'm trying to under stand how you have the binder set up. have you ground the outer foot to allow the fence to set along the inner osolating foot? Or is it just that far in front of the foot? I have always used a neadle feed. I don't think you want a full walking foot. I've bound vertually every thing imagionable up to thick plactic stiffener and multible layers of cordura with a good right angle binder. Plan on spending $400+ on the binder. Be suspicious of any thing cheeper. It's worth the investment. The needle feed alows you to place the binder much closer in front and closer to the side then a walking foot. You should have to grind the foot down from both the front and side to place the binder. I'd love to have a big bobben consew but I'd still convert it to a needle feed. Of the singers I'd look for an old 112-w-140 rather then one of the 212 I think the 112 is heavier and pounds through things better then the 212. If you were near by I could sell you a 212 head for $100. I've got about a dozen or so spare heads around if any body needs one. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I don't do a lot of low stuff, not my thing. Systems vary. Most people use some form of cary with you static line. It's designed to break so that the whole system leaves with you leaving no trace. They use a lot of 80 lb tape. It depends on how they tie the knots but you could see up to 160 lb on the bridal. There are several threads on base jumper discussing diffrent set ups that people use. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Here's a link to basejumper.com. For a while we've been building canopies from light weight fabrics like what is used in the optima. It makes a big difference to us with the average canopy size being around 260. For the most part we've had good luck but this guy is starting to get stress tears on what look like his ribs. The opening you see is a bottom skin vent. It probable started with a staticline jump that pulled on the top skin and transferd the load from the 80lb break tape down through these two ribs. This would generally not have occurred with f111. It's not strictly skydiving but it's a close cozen. We use a lot of the same technology and designs. It's a little bit rougher environment so it stands to reason that we would see the failure points sooner then in skydiving. http://www.basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2933809;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Eloy? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

The idea of a repair is that it should match the original. So yes it should use the same mill spec materials and be done in the same manner. same stiches per inch, same thread, same sew pattern, etc. It's not cool to use more stiches per inch because you think it will be stronger just like it's not cool to use more rivits per inch. Or to drill out the holes to put larger rivits or use heavier cord. And for the rig to still be airworthy it needs to ba able to pass the same final inspection. That means that it should meet all the secs layed out in the production manual otherwise it nolonger falls under that TSO. That's what i mean by matching the data on file. It wont specify the length of the main lift web but it will say the exact stich pattern that a joint should be sewn with. And it will certinly list the harnesses that have been tested and approved. Mirage makes a hip ring harness with the lateral interceting above the ring. In that harness the webbing goes up to become the reserve risers. Not on this rig so no that's not approved. They build a chest ring harness but the latteral comes in at the ring allowing the MLW to aline along the direction of the pull built as I discribed. Not the case here. I don't think even Mirage systems could just arbitraroly build a harness like this without test dropping it. I was a young rigger at the time when I was working for stanford but I don't recall the process there being quite so formal. Perhaps it was the office he was dealling with. He was small time in compareison to other manufactorers. Or I might just not have been privy to all the interplay between him and the FAA but I recall watching him make several minor changesto the design and matereals while I was there. It was a really interesting part of my education and I always incurage young riggers to try to get jobs in large lofts. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I used to work for Wag at quincy so I've got some good ones from all around the country and the world. An old SOS hooked up with one riser group looped through the others. Later that same canopy blew up on him. Reserve breaklines not sewn at the upper cascade. The same guy had just had a ride on this canopy do to a slink breaking under canopy a 800 ft. Canopies built with no bartacks at the nose. cutting the harness stiching to replace the velcro on a vector leg strap. Useing epoxy to glue velcro to leg straps. It had soaked half way through the webbing and was cracking breaking the webbing along with it. Cat piss on container. Soaked in and big patches blew out of the reserve on opening. Barbaque sauce on a new stileto back when they were the shit. They tryed to clean t up but big patches of the rig were tearing like tissue. Canopies and rigs packed on the bear floor of a hanger at a boogie where the parked and charged the start cart. Holes from acid on both canopies and containors. Reflex packed with a fixed type three loop tied in a loop, two inches two long. A pin that snaped like a twig. This was pre SB. A reserve tray tear almost compleatly lose from the rig on main deployment. Riser got under it. It was flapping from the top stich line. Leg stap rolls cut off by a pilot. He didn't like all that extra webbing so he cut most of it off. Rigger that cut most of he webbing off the legstraps rolled them and resewed with three passes of E thread. Patches sewn on reserves with cotton home threadat 1000 stiches per inch. apexes stuffed under springs on pilot riggs where it wore holes in the fabric and even wore the tape. a Softy diaper that had compleatly rotted away. Did you know those were a cotton blend? 120 days my ass. It got wet and all those lines just held the water till the dieper was totally gone just a big ball of green fuz that crumbled at your touch. The little lines on a vector pilot chute unsewn. Lines crossed and sewen a the factory. A Jav pilot chute packed by the factory. They twisted the fabric and mesh up as tight as they could and when I pulled the pin the PC just didn't launch. It bent 90 deg and that was it. grabbed it by the bridal and jerked it back and fourth as hard as I could and could never get it to inflate or even get the spring to extend. Of course there has been the whole gambit of canopies that just tore like tissue. Continors closed in totally creative ways. Loops way too long, by several inches, not jokeing. Lines all screwed up and out of order. And of course tools left in. And the cremdela crem. Jeff actually found a no shit moller strap. It was wrapped around the base of a C-9 in a PEP. I didn't get to see that one. I wasn't in the loft at the time but he told me about it the next weekend. So that's really his story not mine. All the other I eather found or I was there working beside the guy that found it or I was the one that wound up repareing it. There's been other stuff but those are the highlights that come to mind. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

For a rigger there is no such thing as a minor alteration. This is a TSO thing. It's between the manufacorer and the... MIDO? Rather then a Rigger going through the FSDO. They will allow the manufatorer to make minor changes to a design with out redroptesting or up dateing their paper work and line drawing. One example of a minor alteration would be the use of a mateareal stronger then the one specified in the line drawing of the component. That's why a lot of rigs that were drop tested were built from para pack. It was concidered the mimimum, lightest mateareal. That made the use of 1000 denear cordura and any thing that tested stronger leagle. That way you don't have to test drop with every thing. I remember when the shiny antron stuff came out. Stanford was exspaining this to me and showed me the test data of the mateareal that he was fileing away with his TSO. I don't think a rigger would have this lattitude. I beleave that he would have to submit the same spec's to the FSDO and ask for an approval of the substitution. It should be an easy rubber stamp but I don't think he can just do that on his own. I don't think that a Rigger can alter a design with out calling it an alteration. And I'm pretty sure that would be defined as anything not matching the original paper work on the rig. As to the harness. The unison is the only harness I can recall on the mirage with chest rings. The webbing is sewn in a ring with the four point wrapped around the hardware at the bottom, I never liked this, And covered with a confluance wrap mostly for esthetics. This apears to be sewn through like a beam in one huge stitch pattern. I don't think you can just arbutrarally mix the two designs togather. Not fair. It nolonger matches the data on file with the TSO holder. Further I don't think they have drop test on file for this frankenstine mix of the two harnesses so I don't think that even the manufactorer could tecnically do this. They don't hold a TSO for this harness. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

The manufatorer could call the change in webbing a minor alterration but I don't think a rigger could do that unapproved. The sew pattern is totaly diffrent and is a major alteration and to the best of my knowladge they never drop tested that harness configuration. And where is the chest strap any way! I don't think you could squeak by on any of it. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com