RiggerLee

I'm not sure that you have to have a speed bag under most normal circumstances. But in the current project we're looking at useing our eight foot diamiter drouge to deploy our main. So on an adverage opening we're looking at a snatch force of 650 lbs. On an off nominal deployment we could be looking at two to four times that. That's a serious aceleration on the bag. And in the end I wound up building a speed/als bag. I blatently stole tecnologies from both manufactorers. And it packs up tight. Set 500 into a 13.5*8.5*9.25 bag. Normaly that would be like 16.5*8*10.5. When I say tight I mean I use temp pins and a tork bar to close the deployment bag. Don't get me started on what it takes to close the container. But the bottom line is the shit works. I've got film of it depoying at over 250 mph at about 750 lb snatch force based on the suspended weight. I think it's actually 5 frames to line streatch. But you can see it all. The risers lifting, 80 break cord snapping, lines unstowing and finally the slider at full line streatch. The Speed Bag works. Although to be fair it's got some ALS thrown in there to. Of course I had to "improve" on both designs. It's just my nature. Pause while misalanious vegtobles are thrown from the gallery. The point is that the speed bag works. It works where I doubt that any thing else ever could. No way would I trust a safety stow to withstand over 1500 lb of load but I'm putting my money on this speed bag design. or more percisly I'm betting about half a mill of my bosses money. You might also say that I'm betting my life on it as that is probable what I will be forfiting if I drop another one of there rockets. Just to make it clear. I'm not a Sherman fan. I'm certinly not a racer fan. But the speed bag is an interesting idea. It has merrit. I'm not sure it's appopreit for a normal skydiver but it is doing good service in the envolope we are working in when I don't think any thing else could survive. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

What speeds were you testing the pilot chutes to? I ask because we blew up a lot on a project where we had them attached to the top of a 16 foot slider reefed canopy. We were a little fast about 300 ft per sec or so they told me. but with it towing behind the small canopy rather then just slipping the free bag off we consestantly blew then to hell. Torn mesh, blown out fabric, broken tapes, bent springs. In the end we had to build some heavy ones of our own. We started with RI pilot chutes, both the cilindrical and stelth. Blew them all up and then moved on to your small reserve pilot chutes and blew them up. Your mini racer spring was just the perfect diamiter for the final tube size. To every one else. This was kind of an extreame situation. And even then when they litteraly disintergrated they still did there job. And nancy was very helpfull sending us those springs when we were in a jam so I'm not dissing them. I'm just curious cus it really surprised me when I blew the first one up. And by the way that's not ossilation. If you want to see ossilation I'll see if they'll let me post a link to the latest vid. We had a slight flutter problem on our last flight when the drouge was supersonic. You can watch my latest ceation drop another half million worth of equipment into the ground. I think it was the trans sonic range that really tore it apart. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Rig looks nice! Honor, respect and aderation. Especally seeing as you are at a dissadvantage, I tend to climb all over things like a monky and use my body weight where ever I can. I'll tell you a secret on racers. One of the probblems people some times face is that if you just use the loop to try to tighten the thing down rather then working it with your body weight and just takeing up the slack with a pereotic sharp little tug you can get an uncomfertable hard pull. Useing the pin and loop like a pully is a great way to bend the pin. Secret: Slip a cypres pin in along side each of the ripcord pins. They're nice and stiff. You can work a tight racer hard with no fear of bending the pin. Let it sit. Then when you're ready to seal it remove the cypres pins. Your loop just grew an 1/8 of an inch relaxing the pack job slightly giving you a nice low pull force. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I'm not a big cypres fan so don't take this as ignorant blind addolation. I've told this story before but I'll repeat it here as it's an example of compleatly independent "testing" program of cypres cutters. The recovery systems we built for Mustang used a cypres cutter to activate it. Every time I talk to them it seams like they're doing still more testing. Over the years they must have fired hundreds if not a thousand of them by now. It's cutting a loop under high tension just like a reserve with no flaps in the way. To the best of my knowlage none have ever failed. I seem to recall that there antena cost something like $20,000. Frankly if they were haveing failures I think I would have heard about it. Other then cypres them selves I'm not sure any one has done a thousand test fires of cypres cutters. Even buying them cheap that would be a tall order for a gear manufatorer. And buy the way a lot of those were bought up off of 12 year old cypreses. They had a bounty out on those things. So a good percentage of them were the oldest crap out there and they still fired flawlessly. Story out of the way I have some questions about the video. Ever seen a cut loop where the strands don't match up? Like it wasn't cut cleanly across and some of the strands on each side are longer clearly from the other side of the cut? How do you recencile this with the video? Is the kenetic energy just heating it till it melts the rest of the way at that point? Because it does not always seem to cut cleanly under tension. Did you see them do the same thing with any other lines, kevlar, HMA, Vectran with a higher melting point? The cable doesn't count. That's about the easiest thing in the world to cut. And yes I am interested for a reason. The stuff I'm working on for armmadillo may have temp issues. Right now we're looking at the M2 cutter that does seem to cut every thing cleanly but we're still trying to get some more out of europe. And no I haven't called them to ask directly. Lee Hardesty EDIT: Lee, I removed the reference you made to German's in the last sentence of your post. Entirely uncalled for and will not be tolerated. Please re-read the forum rules and avoid making similar comments in this and other threads. Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Their fabric not alumanum. Fabric is streatchy. Think a big rubber balloon blowing up. The bad news is it's also crooked. The Fill fiber don't go straight across. They can be bowed or angled across the roll. A lot of early manufatorers had this problem till they learned to tighten their standards and send back the crooked rolls of fabric. The also learned to flip flop the panels in the canopy so that the crooked fabric looked like a haring bone on the surface. You can also cut more from the center if your peaces are small enough. You can also make seacret magic incantations over the canopy before you ship it. This has always been an issue in the industry. Flight Concepts got bit when they agreed to build all of those matching canopies for Dimond Quest. Only to find that they couldn't get lime green fabric to save their lives. It was all crooked. In fact the whole industry was in a jam. The weaver had turned out a bunch of crooked fabric and it was comeing through all the finishers. some colors you just could not get. Joe told me they were running a 70% rejection rate on some colors. He started putting secret marks on some of the rolls he sent back and he busted them redieing rolls and shipping them back to him. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

There is another way to look at this. What is the price of a brand new optima? Where as this is a tso'ed reserve, perfectly leagle, lands fine for the wing loadings it was built for. and although you can jump a smaller optoma or PD, in fact much smaller if your balls are big enough, think about the price you pay. There's some thing to be said for haveing that much nylon over your head. At that point It doesn't make that much of a diffrence whether it is a swift+ a smart or an optima. When your landing in a fenced back yard it's how much wing is over your head and a newer thinner air foil is actually a bad thing not a benifit. If your under your reserve you can't assume you're going to make it back to some nice grassy landing strip at the dz. And why not buy an older used rig while your at it? It would go nicely with a bit larger main. Most people should be jumping larger maines any way. So no, I don't see why people rag on older reserves. I think they're the best deals out there. A young jumper with any sence should snatch it up and honestly even an older jumper might do well to look at it. I've seen people die under small canopies from probblems that would have been survivable with more wing over their head. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

You clearly do not get it. You keep trying this shit over and over again. When are you going to catch on? This is a small tecnical forum. For the most part, with the exception of nubies that wonder in here, it's the same small group of people reading this board. When are you going to catch on that most of us are older in the sport then you, smarter then you, and better informed then you. I remember when the cypres came out. I remember when Pirose went in. I remember most of those incedents and some others that didn't even make your list. Hell, I packed one of them. None of us are going to buy in to your smear campaine any more then we buy into airtecs propoganda. And we will call you on your BS every time. It's not going to fly here. Now don't get me wrong. I like debate. I don't mind contraversy. But if you want to make a statement here you had better be ready to defend it. We deal in facts here not hype. As to the subject at hand. I think every one shoud read it. I think it should be published in parachutest. It's probable the best example I've ever seen of the greatest danger we face. It shows exactly how slimy scum bag lawyers bully and scare companies into giving in and settleing in law suits. This is what we must fight against. And the sad thing is that you, a skydiver, have bought this hook line and sinker. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I find the 7-31 7-33 7-34 to be a little short on lift some times. My long arm actually has higher lift then my 7-31/33, changed out the motor to a clutch, but the table is to big for me to set it up right now. The 34 uses a smaller bobin. As far as I can tell that's the only real diffrence. Oddly that picture looks like a 33 foot. My old 34 had a single sided L shape feed dog and foot. I don't know squat about the newer machines. If your going to own one I'd look for one with more lift then a 33. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I was really excited about this AAD because it has the best cutter I've seen. One issue may be that they were looking at changing to a slightly shorter version of this cutter. I got the impression that the longer cutter they use on there military rigs was going to be an instalation problem on some sport rigs. All in all it looks like it's going to be a good unit. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I don't know how thick the roll is. On the old Strong rigs I delt with it was 3 folds rather then two. It was sewn with five cord and undoubtedly concidered a structual part of the harness. When I showed up there we had a number that were bad. It was all broken springs. I gave Erni the standard mill spec part number, the number for DJ designs, and the name of the woman to speak to there and told him how many to order. He made the mistake of calling strong and asking them to send us some. They gave him this big line of bull about how it was a propriatary part and could only be supplied by them and you could not get them from any where else etc, etc, bla bla bla. Maybe they frogot that it was stamped with a MS patern number. Maybe thay didn't think we knew what that ment. Maybe it really is something specal built just for them and happioned to be stamped with the same number. And how the harness would have to be shipped in and rebuilt there and how there would be a x week turn around because of the back log of matanance that they were haveing to do. I might point out that depending on whether or not there is a buffer strip rolled in all of those foldes you can generally pull the roll through with a good pair of pliers or vice grips. with out unstiching it. So basically what was in truth a very quick and basic slip on fix turned in to a major hassel. I still don't buy there BS but the SB they put out certinly allows them to designate them selves as the only source for that hard ware and in fact it's hard to argue as in theory it allows then to maintain matereals tracking of the hard ware on that harness. I'm not telling you what to do, but that's the run around they gave Erni when he called them and you can bet that that will be their line if something ever happions. It's just another of my god damn Strong Enterprises pain in the ass stories. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Check with skydive dallas. A guy there was talking about getting his DPRE. I don't know what the statos of that. It might just be that the records are not up dated. Just for shits and grens call up the FSDO. They are required to provide you with some one to adminester the test. I've never actually herd of it being done and it will probable be like pulling teeth but the rule is still there. If nothing else force them to do paper work on it. Maybe you can ster up enough shit to get some one apointed. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

This is actually a very interesting descusion but I have issues with some of the arguments being used. The phantom story has been around for a long time. I remember when Bland had his teath in it trying to get the FAA to make National retest them. No body wanted to hear about it at the time. I remember talking to him about it when it happoned. Just to clarify in case others don't understand what you mean by spitting I'll try to explaine. A lot of the mass of the canopy is in the lines on the diaper. At high snatch forces the tape that the diaper is sewn to runs over the top of the canopy through the crown lines and acts as a pully. If the Apex hole is larg enough it can pull the tape on the number one gore out of the fold in the canopy inside the diaper. Pops right out. Try it the next time you pack an Achudo style diaper like the National. As I recall, please corect me if my memory is off, all the lines pealed off the radial tape at the skirt and then the last one, the one on the diaper, poped at the finger trap down at the link. I read this as the center gore pulling out of the diaper, inflating (probably inverted), and pealing one line after another off the canopy all the way around till the last line broke exactly where you would expect at the finger trap. This is why I think all diapers should be on a heavier tape that runs up and formes a loop to the pilot chute. Think C-9 with a quarter bag. So there is no Pully effect caused by the mass of the lines. PS. I've blown up canopies this way my self. Been there, done that learning curve. I see this diffrently. I see this this as an example of a design defect. One that can cause aberant hard openings. It's not really a probblem of conpatability between TSO's. It's a fundomental failure of the testing requirments to catch a flaw. Why? Because it doesn't happen every time. Your not required to do that many high speed drops. I don't recall the exact number you have to pass, if some body can help me out? But the point is you can get lucky. You can squeak through with a design that could and probably should blow up on you. It should have failed the TSO C23b testing but it didn't. That's my opionion. It should have ben caught right there but it squeaked through. This is also an interesting subjet but it's not relevent to the thread. It didn't break the harness as I recall, it just blow it self up. Totally irrelevent to which TSO. And for thouse of you saying that phantoms are irrelevent, can you say Raven M? I'm not trying to throw stones here but it's a perfect example of a modern skydiving canopy that can have aberant hard openings. And it can knock the snot out of you. Yes they had attachment point problems but the core issue is that it can from time to time slam the shit out of you, which led to the line problem. Again no deffenition of compatability will help you here. It's inadiquite testing. And even then the harnesses seem to do a pritty good job of surviving. This is going to cause unholy hell if we try to follow it. I question whether it's worth it. I've seen harness damage, but how many total harness failures can we count? I seem to recall a racer loseing one side of a chest strap but I'd catagorize that as an extream asymetric opening. I don't hold it against you. And I don't think the ability to with stand high symetric loads on opening would save you from that. It's not speed or the weight of the opening that does that but how it opened. And I'll bet that I could tear any rig apart like that. In point of fact I've never personally seen a harness tear apart and drop some one to their death, but I have seen or know personally of several people that seem to have died of hard openings, torn aortas, or are paralized. Harnesses didn't fail. They died in them. All mains by the way but you see so many more main openings... Bottom line is I don't think this is what we need to be worrying about. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I don't recall exactly how it's sewn but try turning it inside out and see if it looks as clean that way. It might fliped the wrong way when they stuffed it. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Strong has had such a programfor many a year. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I think if you want to be really tecnical the whole lable has to be ledgible. I've often seen where people have "reenforced" the existing SN DOM to perserve it's readability. A lot of people are happy enough to pack it if they can read the data and tell enough of the lable that they can clearly tell what it is. Often manufatorers will replace lables when they come through the shop. Give them a call if you think it's bad enough and it offends you. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Sorry,no. It doesn't work that way and honestly neather the FAA nor you want it to. The FAA is a huge lumbering buricratic giant. It can't get any thing done to save it's life and it doesn't want to deal with any of this any ways. What he's refering to is AD's which do come from the FAA. They are really to lazy to do this for skydiving. I can't even recall the last one maybe capewell. Don't hold your breath on them doing another. SB are from manufactorers. They are binding in the sence that the FAR's require you to maintaine the equipment per there instruction hence the refrence to the FAR violation. The Manufactorer has full athority to do this up to the point of saying that instalation interfears with it's operation and voids the TSO at which point no it is not airworthy and signing it off is a violation, or alllowing it to fly in your plane is a vilation, and they could even try to vilate you for jumping it, up to $1000 per incedent. Bland tryed to explane that to me how that worked once but I don't recall the exact argument. Example, he made noises about threatening to do that on the stall incedent. So no. They are not airworthy. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Just as a side note. We had a problem a number of years ago on Sara's Presteage. It was a broken cutter wire/cutter. I don't think I ever got the chance to see the cutter it self. The instalation had the cutters comeing from the center of the edge of the flap. The gromets extended slightly beyond the edge of the cap of the PC so there was a constant bending on the cutters. Not the greatest instlation ever. In any case she did get an error report and it turned out to be a cutter problem. That's the only instance I'm aware of but we're talking a relitively small number of rigs. All old history but it's just an example of the potential for cutters to be damaged. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Actually I ment, What was being used in the c-9 test shown? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Diaper? size and type of pilot chute/deployment system? Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

Work is force times distance and the Stelth spring is long. Does any one have a number for the pc in the old Eclips? I seem to recall it beeing very stiff. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

At last some one who can do macro photography! Heard a story at PIA. company was playing with upping the charge on the cutter head. I didn't get all the details but it appairently put a nice "bullet hole" through the reserve tray when it fired. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

In regards to to videos posted. That all looks very nice. So, What's the real story on min loop tention? I've always heard that it required a min of x number of pounds, etc. And as I recall that was the excuse you used in one of the events, the student that rode down leaning against the bulkhead. So was that just a defective cutter? Are they inconsistant? Is this a QC issue? You show examples of successfull fireings but how many failed? It would be nice if you published a comprehensive report of the statistics of your study rather then just the wins. Or if you had no failures, great! Congrats! Then please explain to of the student incedent. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I tried to respond to this before but my internet took a shit. I really don't like eather of these positions. I know it's what you would like to hear but they imply a lack of responcability of the part of the rig manufactorer. There was a lot of descusion about this at PIA. There was even talk about testing programs and standards. But what really struck me was how closely the companies were haveing to work with the AAD makers to resolve these issues. Even small design changes were haveing large effects on the delays. I really don't think a rig manufacterer can just wash it's hands of this and expect an AAD to work. If that is the depth of their involvement then I would not put an AAD of any type in their rig. I guess they play hot potato even in Europe. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

I'm not a big racer fan. I hate to think that I'm on the same side as John Sherman. I know I'm going to get shit for saying some of this. From a purely functional stand point the old racer... eleates? there's been so many versions/names but I mean the ones with the downwards closeing riser covers and all the velcro were actually one of the most functional designs ever made. Haveing the riser cover intergrated into the reserve flap allowed it to open with the reserve container. The bag was far less constrained at the top, there was less vareation in the exstraction force from one configuration to another. Even when they went to a tray Jump Shack was one of the few to not go over board with their riser covers over the shoulders. They are also the only company to actually have the sence to down size the diamiter of there reserve piolt chute which is one of the biggest problems with deployments from small rigs today. There. I've said it. I've agread with John Sherman. Now please some one shoot me and put me out of my missory. The answer to this might actually be a step backwards. Hesetator loops lost their cool for a while but there comeing back now with all the sky hook sillyness. I've heard stories too about miss rigging but the fundomental idea is sound and it makes the design of the container and fit of the canopy far less critical. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com

It's not that simple. Yes, a softer bag means lower exstraction force pulling the bag out from under the corners. However, you actually want some retention. It's important that the bag not go tumbleing out of the tray before the PC hits bridal streatch and beguins to pull. I've actually seen canopies that I feared would fall out of the bag eather side of the safty stow. Haveing said that most of the rigs I've run into over the years were over stuffed. No one seems to under stand how much softer and more comfertable a cotainer will be if it's sized apropretly for them and their canopies. They will look better, last longer, avoid closure problems, etc. Lee Lee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com