kmcguffee

That's why, when speaking, I always say "freeflieing" and never "freeflying (tm)".

So, if I disagree with you, it's because my judgment is clouded. If I agree with you, does that make me objective and fair? Maybe my experience in matters of this nature gives me a better understanding of what actually happens and what is or is not possible. Just a thought. I'll reconstruct your post and maybe you can explain what you meant better. This seems to imply that you don't believe my comment that a neighbor was involved in the shooting. This seems to imply that you believe the neighbor story was added for someone's convenience? I'm not sure what the 2 1/2 hour time frame has to do with any of this. If you weren't questioning my integrity, please explain what you meant. BTW, it doesn't seem strange. This loyal dog is eagerly awaiting your response. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

Yeah, we get with the bad guys and come up with a plan about how the crisis is supposed to play out. The bad guys keep screwing it up. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

It seems to me, you're biggest problem with this encounter is the fact that they shot 100 rounds. I haven't seen that stated yet, but I'll go with that number for now. How many bullets should the police be allowed to shoot when faced with an individual who poses a threat of death or serious bodily injury to themselves or another person? Don't give some subjective answer. Tell me based on your knowledge and experience what a reasonable response should be limited to. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

After reading this thread, I was looking through my new Para Gear catalog and found this about the video "The Best of Olaving": All of the t-shirts also spelled it Freeflyer. Probably not conclusive, just a little more evidence. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

Try this http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/12/national/main708355_page2.shtml An excerpt How about we not make this personal, OK? I know the type and quality of people that are on large SWAT teams and I base my judgement on that. Also, I've seen nothing confirming that 100 rounds were fired but I haven't started questioning your integrity. Where did you come up with this decision cycle? "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

No, I was thanking the guys in the military now. I got out of the Army in Nov 2000. I appreciate it though. Sorry for being too vague in my post. I was posting after a late night farewelling a co-worker. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

No I'm not. Targets don't shoot back. I do. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

If the barrel is pointing at you and he is pulling the trigger, you're attitude will change. Your just as dead from a lucky shot to the head as you are from an aimed shot to the head. In a perfect world, and on the movies, the sniper always has a clean line of sight to the suspect and everything is crystal clear. It rarely happens like that in real life. Subjects like to move around, walk behind stuff, and generally not stay with the plan. I can hit a stationary target between the eyes from 500 yds but a moving target at 100 yds is a different story. I always aim center of mass on moving targets. Too many variables involved. If you can do it consistently then you should start competing. I'm sure they were trying to get line of sight on him but when he started shooting at the other officers they didn't know if a sniper had the suspect in his sights. I would have returned fire too. I'm not going to sit and let someone shoot at me praying that someone else shoots him. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

When faced with deadly force, a police officer is allowed to use deadly force until the threat is eliminated. Unless they were shooting after he dropped the gun and was lying on the ground it was reasonable. People don't drop immediately after they are shot. In fact, most people I have talked to who have been shot described it as feeling like a bee sting. It takes about a minute for someone to succumb to loss of blood even if they are shot directly in the heart. They can still do a lot of damage during that minute. Yes, it always can. In this situation the SWAT team was forced to act due to the suspect shooting on the neighbor. I'm sure there are lots of things they could have done better. That is best handled in a review of the situation, not rampant criticism with partial information. I'll guarantee you that none of those SWAT operators wanted to kill that little girl. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

You guys don't believe that a country is allowed to hold prisoners during a war without having a trial for each and every one of them? "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

Thanks guys. A Co/2-327 Inf/101 st ABN No "fucking" Slack "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

I'm a current SWAT sniper on a SWAT team in a large city. According to my information, this guy was firing at an unarmed neighber when the police returned fire. The police were trying to get the neighbor out of harms way when the suspect started shooting. One of the police officers was wounded by the suspect. There was no chance to wait him out, seek cover, determine who was going to shoot and who was not in order to limit the number of rounds, or any of the other scenarios that people have submitted. The death of this child lies solely with the idiot father who decided to use her as a shield. My job description does not entail being a willing target for some idiot hell bent on getting himself killed. If you want that job, go for it. Quit expecting others to do it for you. BTW, when you are getting shot at, you are out of time. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

What does your group of atheists do to help her? Nothing? Complain about what the church is doing to help her? Complain that the government isn't helping her? Your constant railings against Chistianity and lack of correct facts in the most basic of arguments are calling into question my respect for secondary education in this country. If not for education then definitely for those doling out the facts in the hallowed halls. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

Whew! Man that was a good one! You have a gift for understatement. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

Two questions: (1) What quote are you talking about. I've re-read my posts and don't see a quote I could have possibly taken out of context. (2) What information did I provide that was not factual and how is it not factual? Please provide more information than 'I just know'. I am actually well informed of the Muslim community. I'm in it every day and have traveled extensively to and lived in the Middle East. I am not prejudiced against Muslims or Arabs and really love the culture and am currently learning the language. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and it has been noted. But, I believe that these extremist beliefs are a pervasive problem within the Muslim community and that these fundamentalist beliefs are holding the Muslim community back economically and politically. I also believe that there is widespread denial about this problem within the Muslim community. Anytime anyone brings it up they are immediately accused of being prejudiced, racist, or kuffir who will burn in hell. Gee, wonder where I get that idea from? "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

Many of these groups you are claiming are 'Christian' are actually Nationalistic groups. Just because you are white does not mean you are Christian. You haven't heard me bad mouth Arabs have you? The most vocal critics of Muslims I have ever talked to were Egyptian Coptic Christians. You should hear the stories they tell of how the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt treats them. I'm sure you would be surprised. I've got a good friend who is an Allawis Muslim. The Muslim Brotherhood killed a large portion of his family in Lebanon. He won't agree with your 'small minority' theory either. Most of these 'Christian' groups you mentioned don't claim to be doing the work of God as all of the Muslim terrorist groups I mentioned do. They just come from a group with a Christian background. Nice try though. (BTW, it's Protestant with a 't') You do know that the CSA has not been active since 1985 when the FBI raided their compound and arrested the leaders. I guess you also know that the group never killed anyone. That's just the one I know off of the top of my head. All of the Muslim groups I listed are currently active and have killed people in terrorist actions. This verse is from the history of the Jewish nation. The judgement was the judgement laid out at the time based upon law handed down by God. Since Jesus died on the cross we don't follow these laws anymore. These verses also detailed sacrifice requirements etc. Jesus was the last blood sacrifice to God. The main difference between this verse and the one I quoted is that Christians aren't killing people or stealing from the government (Jaziah) and using this verse to claim it is 'God's will' that they die. I'm sure you see how much you are stretching this verse so I won't bother to comment much. Thsi verse is about disciplining a child to teach him/her right from wrong. The Christian God can be vengeful. At least God's not telling his followers to slay those who do not believe or pay jaziah. You are really trying hard to misunderstand the Bible. Jesus is saying that you must put God before everything and every person in your life. Nice try though. Now, please explain to me how I have misinterpreted the verses from the Koran that I quoted. So far you have defended Muslims by attacking first America and now the Christian Bible. You have denied sources that I have provided without giving any proof to your statements and you have accused me of being Islamophobic. I understand the tactic you are using and it stems from a vehement denial of the truth. The truth is that there isa problem within the Muslim community. I have had lengthy discussions with local moderate Imams and they are more willing to admit it than you are. In fact I was quite surprised with their honesty. There is more to this problem than just a few outcasts and America is not the cause. America is just an excuse. Your statements on this board have well shown that you blame America more for the problems in the Middle East than you blame the rulers. How many times have you bad mouthed Syria and Hezballah for the occupation of Lebanon for the past 20+ years? Compare that with how many times you have badmouthed the US for occupying Iraq. What about the keeping of Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan instead of letting them live like the regular citizens. They are treated like 2nd class citizens in both those countries. But that issue is not raised. Muslims don't want to bad mouth Muslims. As far as the Christian sites you listed: these sites are different from the ones I listed in one significan area. These group's members have not strapped bombs to themselves and detonated them among a group of innocent people in order to further their cause. These groups are not recruiting people or supporting people in those endeavors. They are exercising their right to free speech. Many extremist Islamic groups have taken this a step further. They have started actively recruiting and supporting people to go out and kill people. That is a problem and it is not isolated. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

I haven't read the Da Vinci Code yet but am planning to. I really liked his book before the Da Vinci Code called 'Angels & Demons'. I was kind of disappointed when I researched some of what he called fact about the Illuminati. He's got a very low threshold of proof for calling something "factual". I was really wanting it to be true because it sounded so cool. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

Refering to "the holy catholic church" in their creed is different from calling itself "Catholic" as you said here: Just checking. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

No they don't. I don't know of any Protestant Churches that call themselves Catholic. Sourthern Baptist, Methodist, and Pentecostal definitely do not. I know these from first hand knowledge. Whenever someone refers to a Catholic they are normally referring to the Roman Catholic Church. But a scientist would be fine? "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

Even before the Iraqi war they were not supporting us. It is a convenient excuse now but it's not the real reason. Before UBL admitted to the attacks they cooked up conspiracy theories (some still do) to explain it away and maintain their hatred of the US. and Israel. Now they blame Iraq. Before Afghanistan it was, and still is, our support of Israel and, for UBL, the fact that Infidel Armies set foot in the Muslim holy cities (first Gulf War). They blame everything on external factors and fail to consider that they may be responsible for some of their own problems. Is this all Muslims?; no, but it is an extremely large portion. Many of these groups I mentioned earlier have goals of the complete destruction of Israel (not just a Palestinian State) and the implementation of Shareeah law (Koranic law) in the Middle East (first) and then the entire world. If you are not Muslim you are Kuffir and, according to the Koran, shall be killed unless you pay Jaziah (a religious tax) to the Muslim government. Verse from the Koran: So, you can try to appease these radicals but it is going to turn out bad in the end. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

Not everyone agrees they should pay taxes but you are required by law to do that. Not everyone agrees that you should have to wear clothes in public but there are laws requiring you to do that. Most laws are trying to obligate people to do what other people think is right. Your argument doesn't make any sense. Very few laws (most likely none) have 100% support from the public. Rewording what you tried to say: Your rights stop when they start infringing on another person's rights or causes undue harm to society as a whole. The debate in abortion is whether an unborn child has rights or is it just a piece of meat for the mother to do with as she likes. If the child has no rights then it is just a matter of personal freedom for the mother. If the child has rights then it is a matter of whether the mother has the right to end the life of her child. Until women can start having babies without the input (no pun intended) of a man this is the business of both males and females. Men have an emotional and physical attachment to their children. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

If you would research the sites that I listed you would find that this attitude among Muslims is not isolated to a few small groups. They are also not just exercising their right of free speech. When the KKK goes beyond exercising free speech and starts committing violence then we act to stop it. This Muslim ideology of hate and killing of innocent people is being perpetuated by a large portion of Imams, Muslim scholars, and Islamic religious leaders in the Arab world. After 9/11 they immediately started trying to blame Israel without any evidence. The majority of Imams have not come out and denounced the attacks on 9/11 nor have they denounced the terrorism in Israel or other parts of the world. There are a few exceptions, mostly for public relations opportunities, but no religious decrees (fatwas). The KKK is an organization that I don't agree with and it has done some bad things in the past on American soil. But lets start listing the racist, terrorist groups that Islam has spawned: Hamas Hezballah Al-Quaida Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (Now the Yasser Arafat Martyrs Bridage) Harkat-i-Islami Palestinian Islamic Jihad Egyptian Islamic Jihad Gama'a Islamiya Iqwan Al-muslimeen (Muslim Brotherhood) al-Jihad Egyptian Islamic Group Ansar al-islam Abu Nidal Organization Fatah Usbat Al Ansar Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) .................I can continue if you would like. As far as Abu Hamza not being a popular Imam, you need to check your facts. His mosque was one of the largest in London and Muslims from all over the world visited it. He still has a tremendous amount of supporters. You need to check your facts: The original text is from here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2675857.stm Even so, I listed more than just the radical beliefs spouted by Abu Hamza. These beliefs are not isolated to just a few outcast Muslims. The fact that we have done things wrong in the past or will do things wrong in the future does not make this radical ideology among many major Muslim leaders any more justified. Lets not forget the UK's checkered past or its major hand in dividing up the Middle East and getting all of this crap started. By the tone of your posts this debate must really be bothering you.

That is not a hypothesis wild man. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

I'm sorry. I guess things like this: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003065.php should not color people's attitudes toward Muslims. Until the major Muslim leaders follow the Spanish Muslim leaders and condemn all terrorism, without resorting to twisted conspiracy theories like this: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25995 they are going to be subject to major criticism and are going to suffer Islamophobic attitudes. I invite you to look at some of the teachings of Abu Hamza, a major Muslim leader in the UK. http://www.shareeah.org/eqna/article.php?id=003&pt_sid=72b6d49dbc280eaccf7cf8fc27231935 http://www.shareeah.org/eqna/article.php?id=002 http://www.shareeah.org/eqna/article.php?id=022 The main web site is here http://www.shareeah.org/2.html for your surfing pleasure. I know a lot of Muslims who will condemn the Muslim community as a whole for allowing this crap to go on for as long as it has. As far as knowing a Muslim that supports UBL; let me iintroduce you to one: You can also look at this links site: http://www.shareeah.org/links/index.html which will direct you to many nice Muslim teachings. Pay special attention to the Muktab al-jihad (book of Jihad) site. You can also get to the Hamas site where they describe the "Termination of the Zionist Entity" as detailed in the Koran. http://www.hamasonline.com/indexx.php?page=Qassam/termination_zonist_entity From that site: There is a lot more. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin