Everon

Thank you, I stand corrected. That is exactly what I meant.

But, billvon, wherever organized religion (christianity, islam, and such) exists, respect for all and quality education are both suppressed. A world with both cannot exist.

What an endorsement! Killing? Huh! Not to worry, we've got jaywalking under control....

No, separation is not explicitly mentioned. "Religious freedom" is, and this implies a separation of church and state. One cannot possibly have one without the other! As for you, billvon, perhaps you are correct. And if people are stupid enough to throw 10% of their hard earned money so pastor Mike can buy his hookers, then maybe they deserve to be scammed. In hindsight, maybe I don't feel for the good-intentioned. It would certainly be nice if the $70 billion or so donated to churches each year would be redirected towards something meaningful like, uh, education?

OMD (Darwin) I just saw the light! The FSM theory is right on!! I just read today that the board in Kansas now voted to downplay evolution. I wonder just how many school board members would actually consider FSMism. Judging by their recent actions, I'm positive this is a non-zero positive integer!

I would say there was plenty of criminal foreknowledge - but who? It's funny this was never investigated. In the weeks before 9/11, Reuters was touting the airlines on Wall Street, yet put options on AA increased some 4000%, and also 5000% on UA in the week before 9/11. All other airlines traded in their normal range. This alone strongly suggests foreknowledge. Now, come on, why was this never looked into, Mr. Bush? And who exactly was buying these contracts? Saudi Arabia, perhaps?

I agree with you on your point, but Walsh's concern is not without merit. Monies unaccounted for is enough of a concern to make them accountable - this is possible fraud. Even though I am an atheist, I do feel for the well-meaning good-hearted christian who may be a victim of such. I know there are issues here, but my main reason for the post is the "all of a sudden the church is screaming 'separation,'" to protect itself, and blatantly disregards it when it comes to school prayer, etc. Hypocrisy at its best.

They want nativity scenes in public parks, the ten commandments in our courts and schools, school prayer, etc. The constitution guarantees "religious freedom," and this implies a strict separation of church and state. In fact, we're now hearing "separation" is never mentioned in the constitution (of course not, but it is implied as stated above). Lawmakers in Massachusetts are pushing for a law requiring churches to disclose all financial and real estate holdings. The church's defense? Read: www.thebostonchannel.com/news/4821035/detail.html

I think you're being too cynical here. A world without religion where people are brought up to respect their fellow humans (and I mean all humans) and given a proper and quality education would have a great chance to be a peaceful one. What we don't need is people being brought up learning intolerance and bigotry (christianity's views on certain minority groups, etc.) The keys are education and proper upbringing. No B.S. Don't you think we'd have a good chance then? Of course, sadly, this will never happen - we will never have that chance. By the way, point taken on "religion killing." I still feel, however, in my own mind, that it is responsible. I'm just a humanistic scientist who is sickened by the bigotry, intolerance, and suppression of education that is occurring today in the name of christianity.

Religion is responsible for millions upon millions of murders - history shows this. Religion is responsible for suppression of civil rights of human beings in this country (gays, atheists, etc.) even today. Religion is responsible for the suppression of education (Galileo's telescope 350 years ago, evolution today), so it is indeed a serious problem, as it has always been. Hmmm. The religious blame communism on millions of murders. Niether Stalin nor Mao killed in the name of atheism. They killed in the name of power. In fact, cough up the evidence that Stalin was an atheist (there is none). The inquisition, crusades, etc. were responsible for millions of murders - in the name of RELIGION. History always repeats itself..... mistakes and all.

Hey, what's this? Wendy and Alex - I was being serious, and you're laughing????

For those who may be concerned, I am sending this letter to the editor of our local paper: To the editor: The subjects of organic and inorganic chemistry presented to our high school and college students are merely theories. They are zealously defended by the scientific community, to be sure, but only because scientists are determined to protect the "orthodox" version of chemistry that has been so long entrenched. In order to inform America's students of an alternative method of viewing reality (and surely they deserve no less), I propose that right-thinking adults confront local school boards and college administrators and demand, yes DEMAND, that the ancient and honorable science of alchemy to be added to each school's curriculum. It should be mandated that alchemy should be taught together with chemistry so that students gain the opportunity to decide for themselves which better corresponds to reality, and therefore may lead to career opportunities. Before the theory of chemistry unfortunately supplanted it, alchemy was on the verge of transmuting base metals into gold. Think of it. Into gold! Isn't this the sort of knowledge students are entitled to? I hope other local residents will join me at the next meeting of our school board. You can help defend academic freedom and integrity by insisting that alchemy find its rightful place in our science curriculum. Sincerely, D.J.S.

I am 40 now and am doing it for the same reason. But I wanted to experience the sheer excitement as well. My level 2 AFF went so well that I'm putting those emotions behind me to actually try to learn how to be good at it. Gotta love it - there's nothing else even remotely like it.

"Pleases them the most:" I'd better abandon my personal issue of loving pure mathematics - hedonist that I am. "Sexual freedom:" I don't even know WTF the ignorant moron means by this. Persuit of happiness be damned.

If I may, there have been documented catastrophes through earth's history (dinosaurs, etc.) Who's to say humans will even be here in X years? Every global warming event's symptoms have originated in the arctic. Every global warming event has led to an ice age. The average temperature on this planet has increased by about 1 degree in the past century. The average temperature in Alaska has increased 6 degrees in the last 30 years. If we have a "snowball" planet, I don't think we'll be here to see it. Of course certain scientists, and therefore I (believing them), could be wrong - but it's scary nonetheless.

WOW! This is awesome - the first debate thread that I've seen on ID where intelligent comments exist! Okay, I'm no physical scientist, only some background. I'm a mathematician (not really considered science). However, the president's comments show how truly ignorant he is. Firstly, ID is NOT science - far from it. In no way and no form does it invoke the scientific method of discovery - the essential hallmark of any science. It simply is not testable. Period. End of discussion - it does not belong anywhere in a science atmosphere. Further, I don't feel I need to debunk noah's ark, the flood, the earth is the center, etc. as there is ample debunking all over the internet. I won't waste anyone's time. Those that argue that evolution is taught as fact and not theory must understand that all physical sciences are taught in a similar manner. Nothing is 100% fact - if you want 100% "fact," you'd better stick to mathematics and symbolic logic. Scientific theories (which explain phenomona) could undergo changes all the time - this in no way implies we should abandon them. Every physical science is theory - but it is SCIENTIFIC theory. Not "just a theory." This is the most irritating comment by the IDers in which I have no tolerance. Finally, IDers will insist on a "designer," and thus a supernatural being doing the designing. Hmmm. The very definition of religion. In the schools? Blatantly unconstitutional! Mr. president, have YOU read the constitution? I already know the answer! I'm still searching for a blue sky here!

I only have one jump under my belt (AFF) and what your future plans are should affect your decision. According to my instructors, if you plan to make this a longtime activity and really want to learn to be good at it, go AFF immediately. If only for recreation and you're not interested in becoming an expert, go tandem. At least you can enjoy the entire skydive without having many responsibilities of your own (if you so wish). In AFF, you don't get that luxury - too many maneuvers to perform to take in the beauty of it. But, either way, you'll love it! Don't worry about malfunctions - your instructors will teach you everything you'll need to know.

Mine was similar - the jumpmaster helped me locate it, then PULL, hard arch, perfect inflation, slider down - WOW is it peacefully lonely up here!!!!

Sorry, buddy

Actually, AC, I believe science has dispelled of many a belief in a rapid (comparatively) period of time. Science works, and works well! I've studied enough of it to accept it virtually without question. I understand that any branch of science may be shown to be invalid at any time (including mathematics), but my confidence is overwhelming that science is exactly what we all should be studying to expand our knowledge using reason, not any faith-based belief system. When I mentioned "I will return to dust..." of course I'm not 100% sure of this, but from all the scientific knowledge I've had the opportunity to absorb, I'm confident of this. As far as complete knowledge, this will never happen. Never. My contention is that science towers over all other concepts to explain as much as possible, and it does not require "faith" as religion does. Science is based on the scientific method of discovery, where evidence is required, so faith plays no part. I accept science over mythology, and my point is that I cannot understand how anyone wouldn't.

Love the Onion!!

Thanks, guys - I guess I have to see for myself what works best.

It's interesting to see some of the responses on this thread that actually make sense. Being a physical scientist myself, I find it amazing what some people believe as "gospel" without ever questioning the validity of these beliefs. Case in point: anyone who believes god created the earth and solar system had better take a hard look at reality. The Hubble Space Telescope shows thousands of images in our galaxy of starbirth (the evolution of solar systems, like ours, by the process of collapsing clouds of gas and dust due to gravity). These clouds of elements are from former supernovae blasting their contents into space. With this evidence, how could anyone with a reasonable mind possibly believe god created the earth in 6 days? It's ludicrous! I could go on and on with this, but the point has been made - science is rapidly closing the gaps that formerly needed "god" as an explanation. As an atheist, I must clarify some wild misconceptions of people like me that are perpetuated by most christians. As atheists, we believe in equal opportunities, civil rights, and benefits for all humans. We also believe that science is the driving force that will inevitably lead future generations to better prosperity and happiness. Now, I know that there are christians who truly are nice, loving people (Skydivermom), but christianity according to most, including the present Bush administration, has been a serious detriment to society. It teaches discrimination (gays, atheists, etc.), a suppression of science (evolution), a need to force their mythology into the science classroom (creation "science," ridiculous - as noted above) and this is nothing short of reprehensible. My moral standards as stated above certainly are higher than these standards, and for that, I stand proud and tall as an atheist. Finally, I have to laugh at christians who say I'm "evil," or I'm "miserable and sinful and need god." To this I reply: I don't need any guarantees of everlasting life (who the hell would want to live forever, anyway? Are you nuts?) When I die, I'm decomposing into dust, from which I evolved. I know that "heaven" on earth is something I should and am working for NOW, before the finality of death. But, most importantly, I work hard to make sure everyone I know is treated fairly, equally, and not subject to discrimination nor hatred, and is curious enough about our existence to question it through critical thinking and research, not blindly accepting the writings of tribesmen who believed the earth was flat, was the center of the universe, and the sun was 17 miles away, orbiting the earth.

Hi all! I'm new to this forum and have made only 1 skydive thusfar (AFF at Aerohio). I've seen dicussions on having a cold, sinuses, etc. but I have a question. I have never been in a plane before so all of this was new to me. I felt no ear-popping and really couldn't tell the difference in the thin air at 13,000 ft. As I was getting into positon, I felt fine - no congestion, clear airways, etc. but right when I jumped, a huge snot came out of my nostril and went all over my goggles (haha). It did indeed break my concentration right there! Now, I do have allergies pretty badly - could this have contributed to this at altitude, or could it be just altitude? Like I said, it was a shock to me because I had felt no conjestion the in moments before (????)