StreetScooby

+1 We are all engines of karma

I imagine that Tebow uses his faith to maximize his personal potential here in this life. Through him, not external to him. We are all engines of karma

I loathe to see this conversation devolve into an argument over semantics. But, here goes anyway... Language is difficult. Especially when discussing certain phenomenon. I would love to see another word other than God being employed here, but it seems it's the best our language has been able to do for us, to date. I am discussing an energy that exists, that hasn't yet been measured by accepted rigorous scientific methods (actually can't be measured by rigorous scientific methods that require reproducible observations independent of the observer because invariably it is the observer that's observing itself), and is accessible personally to those who choose to pursue it. We are all engines of karma

+1 Claiming a belief system, and actually living said belief system are two different things. We are all engines of karma

Cool, something we can agree on. I personally haven't been discussing mythology, nor a "Christian type God" who is a sentient being that sits over us and judges us. Let me be clear on that, again. Sounds like you're continuing to demand "purely scientific evidence" here, independent of the observer. Are you saying it's not possible to observe yourself in a "scientific manner"? What word could we use to describe such a process/discipline? One that you'd feel comfortable with? You and I need that word in this conversation going forward. What about the enormous body of "observations" people have made across all cultures regarding "God", and a personal relationship with "God"? Are you saying absolutely none of those "observations" are valid? On that note, what would you even look for in a personal relationship with "God"? Why do people choose to pursue a discipline with the intent of establishing said relationship? This is a core question in even pursuing these "observations". What are you looking for this "God" to do for you? That's an essential part of the entire process being discussed here. I'm not even going here. I am not a Christian. I do not view God as Christians view God. We are all engines of karma

Asatruar in the plural form... http://www.erichshall.com/asanew/newtotru.htm We are all engines of karma

Not that there is anything wrong with heavily armed Christians... We are all engines of karma

I find myself incorporating increasing amounts of Buddhism into my life. The more I learn, the more comfortable I'm becoming with that discipline. We are all engines of karma

I'm not a Christian, and am most certainly NOT trying to convert you to such. My point on this thread has consistently been - just because one chooses not to follow a self-observation discipline in their life doesn't negate the observations and experiences provided by such a discipline for other people. We are all engines of karma

As long as you realize that disproving the concept of a Christian God as described by the Bible does not disprove the beneficial power of the discipline espoused by Christ. That's where faithful Christians, those truly living that discipline, take offense, and rightfully so. We are all engines of karma

The only test one can do here is to individually pursue these observations, and see what happens. No one else can do it for you. Hopefully, in pursuing these observations you've encountered a framework that facilitates the process for you personally. We are all engines of karma

There are those here who will choose to flog to death the concept of a Christian God as expressed in the Bible. It's pointless. Consider the audience for the Bible... Basically, it was aimed at goat herders, etc. That audience is no longer applicable. But, the core concepts expressed by Christ, as described in the Bible, as very relevant. They're universal in that the same core concepts are expressed in different ways across many cultures and other disciplines. Living a life as described by Christ in the Bible can be enormously beneficial to people, and those around them. We are all engines of karma

I think that was used here as an illustration. I don't see a need to beat that use of an illustration to death here...

I can see where this is a problem for some. For others, who have been trained and practice a discipline, they have a framework with a common vocabulary that allows them to describe their observations in meaningful terms. Can you stick a gauge on it? No. Doesn't mean those observations aren't valid, and significant. Science's strict requirement of reproducibility, independent of the observer, has proven enormously beneficial to mankind. For some phenomenon, such as observing yourself, that definition is limiting (by definition ). Thus, do I call the practice of observing yourself Science? Only loosely, and with said caveats. We are all engines of karma

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Exactly, the personal experiences are the observations. For some, those observations lead to the conclusion of ultimate responsibility - you are responsible for what happens to you in life. Period. We are all engines of karma

If that works for you, especially in a beneficial manner to those around you, great! We are all engines of karma

Basically, I sought those observations. After I rejected my Christian beliefs, there still existed a body of observations/personal experiences/awareness that simply did not make sense to me in a context where I was just worm food waiting to happen. Over the course of my first year in graduate school, I spent quite a bit of time trying to reconcile an understanding of God with my knowledge of thermodynamics. It turned out to be reasonably simple, maybe even crude. 25 years after I reached a closing point on that "thought", I put it to paper here in dzcom as a multi-thread series, starting here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2396715;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread The one thing that view lacked was allowing for any significant personal experience. Basically, I was in a great river. Found myself spending alot of time watching out for eddies, avoiding the big rocks, and keeping the cooler close by as needed. The one nagging thought that I kept coming back to was: each and every one of us is our own reservoir of energy, and we're all capable of producing great change for good in this life. Even within ourselves there are really many reservoirs of energy, including ones that can be called love, compassion, etc. They're all there waiting to be understood, appreciated, lived in this life, and hopefully shared with others. I've now reached a point where I have a comfortable framework to further explore this energy. It's a personal thing, for everyone who chooses to make the effort. Editted to add this link: My last thread is here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2409368;search_string=God%20and%20the%201st%20law%20of%20thermo;#2409368 It will let you track back through the other threads easily. BTW - please do not view this a sales pitch on my part... It's not. I was simply looking for feedback that would let me push the boundaries on that thought. We are all engines of karma

Right. And that evidence did not present itself until someone went looking for it. And after much effort, and no small amount of failure along the way, they succeeded in producing observations that could be discussed. Then, as others were taught how to make those observations, an entire new word came into our vocabulary that's in common use today. You continue to argue against a Christian God, as you and I were taught to experience it. You're preaching to the choir, brother

An energy that most religions call "God". It's an energy that our science cannot measure, and our vocabulary is quite limited in describing. We are all engines of karma

Until you choose to pursue that evidence in a disciplined manner, you're correct. We are all engines of karma

I do understand what you're writing, better than you can imagine. You're disputing a Christian god based upon your experience. And I agree with you, _that_ god doesn't exist as you and I were taught to experience it. We are all engines of karma

You've chosen to let your experience with a limiting belief system impact your entire view on an energy space that does exist, and is accessible to those who choose to investigate it. We are all engines of karma

Ah, that is pretty hard core. My mother was raised Church of Christ in the deep south. I was raised in a fundamentalist Southern Baptist faith, again in the deep south. That belief system, as I was exposed to it, is quite limiting, IMO. We are all engines of karma

Call it what you want. Basically you have chosen to not live a discipline that others do, for whatever reason. There is no common experience there for you to fully appreciate whatever observations are made by those living a given discipline. That doesn't make you a bad guy, nor does it invalidate observations and experiences made by those living a discipline. We are all engines of karma