tso-d_chris
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Everything posted by tso-d_chris
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Or maybe not. Which state? The citizens of more than one state were failed by their governments. Which of course means many different cities as well. He severely over generalized the group he upon which he was saying screwed up worse than the federal government, practically claiming that it was everybody's fault except the federal government.
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Please define "they." There were more than enough fuck ups to go around, at the federal, state and local level. I haven't seen anyone solely blaming the federal government, but I see a lot of people apologizing for their incompetence/neglegence.
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I didn't fail to grasp that at all. They could have deployed close to NOLA, prior to flooding. BTW I think you have completely forgotten the "long and storied history" of the Marines, who routinely train for amphibious assaults. By naming two of our military divisions, I was not implying no others had similar capabilities. We could have had troops staged in Texas, KY, TN, arkansas, etc, so that they would be able to respond very quickly after the storm passed.
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The did nothing except evacuate 95% of the city's population, which, simply said, did not mess things up for everyone. When FEMA failed to run with the ball, that messed things up for everyone that was unable to evacuate. It is FEMA's job to respond to natural disasters. That is the way it works. FEMA failed to do what they had to do. Everyone assumed FEMA would not be passive, and would actively assist in the immediate aftermath. The counted wrong. And American civilians, whose lives are every bit as valuable as American soldiers, died as a result.
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I have to ask-- Where did you come up with this idea? Did you poll all the victims in NOLA? Pretty impressive given the problems they are having with communication and logistics. Could you maybe post your poll in its entirety? Or are you just making up rhetoric as you go?
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Again, I haven't heard anyone say local officials did everything right. I have heard a lot of people make excuses why the victims are to blame. I can't follow their broken logic, but I read their arguments all the same.
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A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State
tso-d_chris replied to burbleflyer's topic in Speakers Corner
My point was to illustrate that the facts could be twisted to promote any political agenda, not to promote socialism. I just get tired of the ignorant fools who would use this catastrophe as an opportunity to do more poor/race bashing. -
I have done my share of road marching, as well, which is why I know what you are suggesting would have been next to impossible. Under ideal situations, high speed soldiers who are in good physical condition and properly equipped fall out of long road marches. Civilians in less than ideal shape are not likely to complete a ninety mile, three day road march. Never mind the fact that th roads were filled with the cars of the vast majority of NO residents that were evacuating.
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15-30 miles a day on foot with enough food and water to survive three days is pretty unrealistic. That is 50+ lbs per person. Nevermind the fact that the average person does not own shoes suitable for such an endeavor. I don't know how often you've walked long distances with a load, but if you can make 90 miles in three days, you are the man.
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You might find this hard to believe, but immediately following a hurricane of Katrina's magnitude, local governments (which include state governments when you consider the size of the affected region) are not going to be able to operate anywhere near maximum efficiency. It is the federal governments responsibility to step up and help out. That is why I am more vocal of the federal failures.
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A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State
tso-d_chris replied to burbleflyer's topic in Speakers Corner
Fixed that for ya Fair enough. I do not claim that the federal government are the only ones to blame. -
There was plenty of advance notice of the storm to make that happen, yet no one did. What is your point?
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I don't remember saying the local government was without blame. Could you be so kind as to link to that particular post of mine? Unless, of course, you are just putting words in my mouth.
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Until you consider that the 82nd Airborne Division can have people and equipment on the ground anywhere in the world in 18 hours. The 25th Infantry Division can be anywhere in 24 hrs. I see no reason why the federal government should not have been able to get people and equipment on the ground in the gulf region in a similar time frame, considering neither the storm nor the flooding was a surprise. Maybe I'm missing something. Is it really more important to be able to take over a foreign airport on short notice than to respond to a natural disaster on our home soil?
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A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State
tso-d_chris replied to burbleflyer's topic in Speakers Corner
By the same logic, if we were a socialist state, everyone would have had a car to evacuate in and there would have been far less loss of life. The facts can be twisted too promote any political agenda you like, but the fact of the matter is that the gulf coast was hit hard by Katrina, and the federal government's blatant failure to respond in a timely and adequate manner has significantly increased the loss of life. -
Read about them here.
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Some died from the hurricane. More survived the hurricane, only to die from the flooding. I strongly disagree, in part because I believe the First Amendment is a good thing. Free speech is a right, not a privilege. But also because volunteers were on the scene long before government was. We pay taxes in part to deal with the aftermath of natural disasters like this. The flooding was not a surprise. Nor was the hurricane. There was time for those whose job it is to react to disasters such as this to formulate and initiate execution of a plan. However, many people that stayed behind did not stay by choice. They stayed do not having the option of leaving. Ignoring them was incompetence at best.
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And there are also people that couldn't leave that are now dead because FEMA and their governments failed them. But many, if not most, couldn't leave without additional resources. I suppose you think it is their fault they live in poverty or poor health? You are again assuming they stayed by choice. Some did. Many didn't have the option of leaving. The primary mode of evacuation was to be personal vehicles. Not everybody can afford a car. Many that can cannot afford anything reliable enough to go very far. Many could not afford the $2+ per gallon of gas.
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Yes. Are you implying that everyone that stayed wanted to stay? The evacuation is to minimize the number of people that need emergency services, not as a way to get out of the responsibility of providing those services. There. I fixed it for you. Having not walked in those victims shoes, I'm certainly not in a position to judge them. I might be going out on a limb here, but a week in a life or death situation might be a little stressful, especially when there is no reason the wait should have been that long.
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I think this situation falls under "insure domestic tranquility" and "promote the general welfare" requirements of the federal government.
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Let me put it another way. A week and a half ago, in a conversation I was having with a couple jumpers, we talked about how New Orleans was going to be underwater if Katrina hit nearly directly as a strong hurricane. If three skydivers in Florida knew what was going to happen, why didn't Bush and FEMA? Common sense dictates that if an evacuation is truly mandatory and absolutely necessary, those that are unable to evacuate themselves will require assistance, either getting out before the storm, or dealing with the aftermath.
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I've been hearing for at least a couple years that this would happen if New Orleans took a direct hit from a big hurricane. Have you heard of the hurricane Pam scenario? They knew what was going to happen. Funding was requested to help mitigate the situation. Funding was denied.
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I think you are missing the point. Help is needed now. I have time to help now. If everyone were able to do a little of what they already know about, a lot could get done sooner. If someone is qualified to help on the ground in a situation where help is desperately needed, there should be no need for additional training for far less time critical services. The idea that everyone needs retraining wastes time, and ignores existing abilities of volunteers.
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Of course if you had a few days advance notice of what was going to happen, some extra precautions could be taken by the drop zone.
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Trust me, I've thought about just heading down there myself, but as I am not familiar with the area, I would likely be more effective working with some organization who is already on the ground, but short of volunteers.