Michele

A note about Post Partum Depression/Psychosis. I know a lady who had horrible PPD for her first two pregnancies. She did not get help. Her husband would ask me to come over and help out with the kids, to give her a break. I would do so without question. During her third pregancy, she spoke to me about her fears of PPD. I asked her to get medication and to take it immediately upon the birth of her child. She declined...I spoke with her husband (my friend), and told him to get her onto medication. He told me "it's her life, I can't tell her what to do." And he's right, to a degree...he can't. Long story short, about 2 months after she had her third child, I got a call at work. It was her husband...she had locked herself in the bathroom with the baby, and all he could hear was the both of them crying. Both wailing. He was taking care of the other two children, and wanted to know what I thought he should do. She had been locked in there for 45 minutes. I told him get the other kids to the neighbors. Then call the police, break the door down, whatever it took to get to her and the baby. There was massive danger there and it needed to be addressed. He said "no, I'll just talk to her some more." I left work, and arrived at his place about 20 minutes later. I got the other two kids over to the neigbhors, went upstairs to my friend, and told him to get the fuck out of Dodge...and then pounded on the door, took a screwdriver to the hinges (utterly ineffective), and told her I was calling for the police if she didn't come out immediately. She did...why she came out to me and not her husband I don't understand, but she did come out to me. I made sure the baby was all right, and put her in the car and took her to her OBGYN. Upshot? She's been on antidepressants now for a while, and is doing well. She's stabilized, and understands that she is not out of danger. She is no longer on hormonal birth control, and her family is thriving. And this was only Post Partum Depression, not Post partum psychosis...and not PPP combined with other brain diseases. Think really hard about making judgements on people who have a verifiable illness that you don't understand. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I don't see her as good or bad. I see her as sick. Very, very sick, for a very, very long time, without proper help or medications. Curious as to why you don't think psychosis justifies (or, as I think of it, explains) anything? Post Partum Psychosis is very very different from depression. Very different. Paranoid schitzophrenia is very different from depression. So was the self mutilation, the various suicide attempts, and the other symptoms of her brain disease. All very different than depression. She is unlikely to ever walk the streets, to start with. Yes, she killed her children. Five glorious, brilliant, incredible children are dead because of her and their father. Yes, it is the ultimate betrayal - a mother or father killing their own child(ren). Yes, it is atrocious and horrifying and incredibly sad. I understand that completely. Prison is protecting us from "them," I'll agree there, too. It's about punishment. Another agreement. I think she needs to be observed for the entire rest of her life...but I think it shouldn't be in prison; it should be in a psychiatric facility where she can start getting help and treatment and hopefully, someday, become something resembling the promise she showed early in her life. That won't happen in prison. Nope, they weren't "normal." Neither was Bundy, Gacy, Gein, Kemper, Kraft, Wuornos, and on and on. The difference between those and Andrea Yates is choice and ability. All those you mentioned had the choice to not take an action. All those had an ability to reason, to restrain themselves, from killing. They chose to kill anyway. Andrea's mind didn't give her a choice. She didn't have a choice. Her thoughts were so amazingly fucked up that she couldn't see any choice. She had no ability to censor herself and correct her behavior. She had no ability to make a different choice. And that's the part people don't seem to understand. It is foreign to me to think like she must've been...to kill someone, let alone the five children I put on this planet. I have a comprehensive understanding of what it's like to have disrupted thoughts, to fight a brain disease...and I still can't fathom killing children. But that doesn't mean anything at all...it's her thoughts, her psychosis, her brain disease. If I recall correctly, the black heart is a phrase used to articulate intent. It gives rise to the intent aspect of a crime, and that's an important part of a crime. I didn't mention "good heart," but it is very clear that if someone didn't have the intent to commit a certain crime, that crime can be reduced to a lesser charge. I would imagine that's where "good heart" comes in. Having a black heart is something which I have always thought an apt description of people like Manson, Dahmer, Berkowitz (et al) have. Their intent is clear; I don't believe Andrea had the ability to form intent as it is commonly understood. I do believe that her thoughts were not something anyone can ever understand, and I do wish she had stayed on her medications (and that she received correct medications and treatment to begin with). Sorry you take offense at my words...but I as well have been offended by much in this thread. There are such predictable fear responses to this that it makes me sad. And makes me realize just how far society still needs to come to understand - or at least have compassion and/or sympathy for - those who suffer significant brain disease. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

So you agree, you wouldn't be guilty of murder. Just neglect. So you do allow separate standards. It's cool. It's also really enlightening. I'll try. (But I'm not going to discuss Hitler...Goodwin's law and all that). A rapist is guilty because he has made the choice, with sanity and with intention, to rape someone. The same with the alcoholic. He made the choice to go to the bar, get behind the wheel, and drive. What people don't really understand at all is that with mental illness, the choice becomes different. Your illness affects your pancreas, the insulin/sugar regulating part of your body. It's a part that you need to keep working correctly, or supplement the chemical output, to be functioning mostly normally, right? Well, brain disease affects the part of our body which creates thought, decision, emotion. The same way that diabetes affects the body's ability to create sugar controls, brain disease affects the ability to think the same way "normal" people do. The thoughts are different. Very different sometimes. This is a trackable issue. Neurological studies have shown far different reactions to things while the subject is involved in a psychotic break than normal. It's quantifiable. It's "provable", the same way a sugar test demonstrates high or low sugar. I don't expect you to be convinced, especially by me (who you already have a low opinion of.). I do wish you'd look at the issue with an open mind...and see the differences and acknowledge them as real. Do you think it's important to understand why? Or just "she killed them, off with her head!" You already acknowledge that you'd expect a separate standard if it were your medical issues that caused the death of others...why not her? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Andi, I don't think anyone is blaming HH or the greenies...I think this has just been a jolting experience for many people, and people are wondering now. Internet stalking is not uncommon. Someone recently was murdered because of her relationship formed on the net. We hear all the time about the children who're lured away by a bad guy because of interactions on the net. But I don't think anyone is blaming DZ.com or any of the administrators. That said, if this is someone whose presence can be confirmed to be part of the community, then I think he should be banned. I don't care to know who it is, per se, but I think his participation in the forums should be eliminated. (And the perjorative He/his/him is done in the general sense...a woman could have done this, too.) Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Andrea Yates had a record (very long) of significant mental illness. A brain disease. She had been treated and diagnosed. Her illness isn't simply "depression" but rather Post Partum Psychosis, Schitzophrenia with psychotic breaks, and something else (iirc.) She cannot be held as responsible as you or I would be. The murders were not "premeditated" as you or I would premeditate them. Brain disease is real. It's effects are real. It's prognosis is real. It's treatment is uncertain, but steps can be taken to minimize the symptoms for the most part. The attitudes I'm seeing here are horrifying. She is sick. End of story. She cannot be held to the same standards you or I would be. It's not an excuse...it's not something to foist off the responsibility. Ron, you don't like the stroke analogy. How about this one. You have diabetes, and you go into diabetic coma. You are flying a plane at the time. You lose control of the plane and crash it. Somehow, you survive but all your passengers die. Should you be held to the same standards as others who do so with malicious intent? Who do it with an evil, black heart? And I'm invoking Godwin's rule here, too. I get that most people don't understand brain disease. I really understand that most people just don't understand what happens when the chemicals in the brain start doing funky things. What I dislike is that there is no intent to understand that at all. But such is society. Such is a fear based reaction to a brain disease. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

If understanding right and wrong is missing due to a brain disease, is it still a crime? This is an enlightening thread. Sad, but enlightening. So many people are not willing to understand what happens with a brain disease...that's sad. She should be placed in a facility where she can get treatment...not jailed. Treated. The depth of her brain disease is such that she will likely never be released from it, as she will probably always pose a threat to self or others; but I'd rather see her in a place where treatment can be received rather than just shut away. Sigh. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Note sure if you're joking...but in case you aren't, Rusty Yates was (is?) in the employ of NASA, paid highly. At one point in their life, they gave everything up and lived in a converted bus (for religious reasons, iirc), but had bought a home in the 'burbs with their 3rd child (again, iirc.). Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Blue Skies, Jan... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I agree, the whole thing is a vile representation of humanity. Her husband - and Drs - should all be held liable. I think that if she lives the rest of her life in a mental institution, where she gets treatment and help, that would be satisfactory to me. Post Partum Psychosis is real. Schitzophrenia is real (which I believe, although I could be wrong, she was diagnosed with.) Both cause significant breaks with reality. Both prevent someone from knowing right from wrong. Both are treatable. Both are deadly when left untreated. I wonder, though, at some of the comments. If it could be proved she was mentally ill, does one then also advocate the death penalty? If it could be demonstrated without any doubt that she suffered, and that the murders occurred during a psychotic break, does one then also believe her life is forfeit? If she does get found guilty by reason of insanity, then rest assured she will spend a whole lot of time in a facility. She will not be "released" before she goes through menopause (if she ever is released), as she's 40 now. If she's released, it won't be to her husband, because he divorced her. She would likely go into a residential care facility after her incarceration, and there is slim possibility she would be dating, let alone have sex, get pregnant, carry to term, and deliver. As for her adopting, that's pretty unlikely, too. Yes, the crime was horrific. I was utterly aghast when I heard of it...but if there is an underlying medical reason, why shouldn't that be a mitigating factor? Why shouldn't she get treatment and help? Why shouldn't it be understood that people can be insane, and do things like this? After all, the guy who shot Reagan for the love of Jodie Foster is only *now* being allowed unsupervised visits to his family. And he didn't even kill anyone. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

From CNN "(CNN) -- A Texas appeals court in Houston on Thursday ordered a new trial for Andrea Yates, the woman who confessed to drowning her five children in a bathtub, citing the false testimony of a prosecution witness." While it was overturned due to a witness giving false testimony, I've always strongly disagreed with her convictions. The woman suffered from Post Partum Psychosis at the time of the murders; and further research on Andrea's life shows that she had been in and out of mental hospitals, had had much treatment (some which didn't work), and was clearly told to not have any more children (due to her past Post Partum issues). There is no way she was understanding reality; no way she understood what was right and wrong; and no way she was able to assist her defense. I for one am glad that she will receive a new trial, and maybe this time she will get found "guilty by reason of mental incapacity" or however they phrase it. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I'm not sure how to answer that. If they were in Heaven, and I was too, then there is something far larger that I don't understand going on....I'd need to have a sit down with God to get to the bottom of that. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Nah, you were just last on the list, Dorbie... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

You call someone who victimizes his own child to prove some sort of point a hero? I have a different definition, I guess... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Again, I'm no techie (and in fact rather computer illiterate), but I bet that every one of my actions can be seen by those behind the scenes, or at least by HH and the programming team (if there is one.). What I read, what I post or start to post and then delete, what I delete, and so on. I bet they can determine who searched who, what was clicked over, when the searches were done, and all that jazz. If there are only several people who searched PK's posts during the time frame indicated by the letter (or a reasonable extrapolation thereof), then the issue can be narrowly defined. Who searched and linked might be able to be determined, and those would be very few indeed (from what I can tell). The ISP would be compared to the "usual suspects" (if there are such things...), and it could be determined that way. Like I said, I dunno. I could be totally offbase, but I think that's what happens. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

ANd then compare Bush's nw to OBL's.... But you don't hear of OBL doing anything of the sort, even to the island he was known to have considered making his home. This is a stupid argument. (Please note I'm not saying anyone here is stupid, but I am saying the comparison game is pretty stupid.) Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Missing far more than that. Whomever it is is missing a sense of humanity. Only someone who lives that low would consider something like this, let alone take any action on it. IIRC, PK, when this happened to Steve, HH was able to research who was doing what behind the scenes. I know nothing of computers; but I suspect that the person who did this wasn't able to cover his tracks well enough to pull one over on HH or his team. Maybe HH can do something? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

PK, am I reading that correctly? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Wow. So sad to hear of that, my friend. Hang in there...but I bet your skills and talents will be better served somewhere else if you're hoping they'll be investigated, you know? Hugs to you. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I don't think there's anything I know of which comes out here that would warrant attacking someone to the extent they lose their job. Whomever did this has no sense or morality, integrity, or honor. And while I know some people like that, it still is a bit of a shock to see them take that action. And no, I don't know who it is. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Oh. Didn't know that. However, if the contract was something like that, and there is a warning system in place (like there is most of the time, for a CYA thing...) then it would still be worth the investigation. Especially if some of those posts can be proved to have been made on his own time. At home, weekends, stuff like that. Which could strip the claim down to "unreasonable" and therefore demonstrate that it's simply a loophole use. Well, I still think there's the potential for a damned decent lawsuit...libel, slander, defamation, interference with livelihood. I dunno, but something. And I think it's a Federal thing to be able to view the contents of your personnel file. may have changed - it's been a long time since I worked in Corporate America - but it was that the last time I heard. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Actually, I think CBS is right. And you can bring it to a lawyer, who may be able to see that damages are recovered, and that this can't follow you. Sometimes, using the law when you've been intentionally damaged is the way to go, even if it means suing another skydiver. I can't think of a post you made that would be problematic for your clients though...or your work. I don't even know who you work for, and I've been around a while. And I echo the sentiments....whomever did this is not to be trusted, either in the air or on the ground. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Geessssssssh. What would a person do that for? Really. What personal gain would motivate them to do something like that? I don't agree with you on a whole lot of things, but to do something like this is reprehensible and atrocious. Frankly, it would never even occur to me. One can only see Karma peeking up her head, taking notice. People, look. If you've got an issue, take it up with that person. Don't go around trashing their livelihood, or their reputation. Really. That's childish and cliquish and about as lowbrow as can be. No class whatsoever, and no respect. Or better yet, just ignore the person you've got issues with. I do, with several people here. It's not hard. Sorry, PK. Dunno what else to say. Man, that's utterly fucked up. (And no, I haven't even got an idea who'd do something like that.). Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Mike, I noticed that too. After reading some of the more well structured comments and seeing the skipped letters and varient spellings, I suspect that there is software imbedded to prevent some words from being posted as written, such as bomb, suicide, muslim, and so forth. At least, I hope so. Justin, I know that. My comment was in response to the person who originally posted something that they found reprehensible (as I did). I was just providing the other side of the comments there, too. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

(Rebeccas, not directed at you. It's a general comment...) While I agree that some of the retributive comments are harsh, so is this one. One value to being able to read the site is to read the reader's comments....it tends to give you a feel for what the "common person" is thinking, both good and bad, on all sides. I sincerely hope it's true...time will tell. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Well said, and a comment to take to heart. Thanks. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~