Michele

Which part? I did nothing more than point out what had already been pointed out: assuming someone who does not dress to his desires he considered a "slut" and a "whore" and that in my opinion, that was not according respect deserved to all humankind. He, after being challenged, repeated his assertion that I had read him correctly. If it was unfair of me to state my own opinion, then so be it. Oh well. Sorry you think I was unfair and acidic. I was going for ascerbic. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Know what? Ask all the questions in the world. Ask until you're satisfied you've gotten good information, and then ask a bit more. I think what Airgord was trying to say - albeit inelegantly - was that only you know what your level of comfort is, what your level of risk is. If you want skydiving to be completely safe, it never will be. People can, and do, get killed in this sport. However, if you're doing a "risk-assessment" and are weighing the answers to your questions - and taking suggestions made to heart - then I don't think anyone here is qualified to answer your fundamental question...which is, should you do it. That's for you to decide. Only you. And only after you ask, ask, ask, and then ask some more. As for me, I'd encourage you to do it. To experience life, you need to be in it all the way. 100% commitment doesn't happen very much - you almost always have a lower level of commitment in the things you do. Putting it all on the line voluntarily is not a common occurance...but it is the most magnificent, amazing, and utterly exhiliarating thing that can be done...and for us, skydiving is the way we do that. I think that going out to the DZ is a great way to see that one media report is not necessarily the way things go. And I also second the idea that going Tandem is best for the first time; I didn't go that route, and wish I had. It's what I recommend to anyone who has ever contemplated jumping... And I wish you great luck, glorious blue skies, fair winds, and I want to hear all about it when you do go. There's nothing quite comparable to a first jump... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Hitting the nail on the head...LOL! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I agree in essence with what you're saying. But my contention is still as simple as a more base reality than that...it's the choice... As you point out, the fundamentalists - islam mostly, but some christian sects (and not nuns) - eliminate the choice aspect. Frankly, what astounds me is that. Maybe it's because I'm so used to choice, but to me, demanding that a person dress a certain way on pain of physical punishment makes the dressing insincere. IOW, if a woman chooses to dress a certain way out of worship of a diety, then that is a sincere choice, and shows respect for her beliefs. However, if a woman is made to dress a certain way to show the same respect to that diety, then it's insincere, and done simply because she doesn't care to lose her head today. The choice, then, is the fundamental aspect that I'm addressing. Not anything other than that; once the idea is stripped down to it's basic nature, it's all about choice. Darius doesn't agree with choices, apparently. He doesn't seem to think that women (or people, for that matter) should have respect simply because they're alive...or, as you put it, basic human respect. That is what I'm discussing...he's made the claim that women who dress a certain way - not men, mind you, just women - are whores and sluts. Because of that, I contend that he does not believe in human rights for all - not even the mere respect that a person who is alive should be accorded. No, instead he labels them as sluts and whores. I don't think that you're discussing that aspect at all. rather, in your post, you say that you're a judgmental bastard and are o.k. with that. Knowing that you're judgmental took some introspection...Darius, however, is refusing to see that in his opinion. Furthermore, you bring in an element of moral choices...and their repercussions. Darius completely avoided answering my statements, or even countering them. He's ignoring the ramifications of his behavior and opinions, while you're not. Does that mean I agree with you? No, but I disagree less because you've at least taken a close look, understood some things about yourself, and are willing to accept - and to curb, in some instances - a behavior that you have. And that's far more mature and responsible than blaming a woman's cleavage for a behavior. As an aside, in re: Darius' comment about popularity contests, nope...I don't play that. Don't care to, don't want to, don't need to. I state my opinion. If it's popular, fine. If it's not, fine. It's the way I think...and that's just fine with me. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Not really. And, like you, I don't care if someone wants to hear it, or if it's PC, or what. I state my opinion, and if you can't deal with it, no skin off my nose. I'll say it again; call bullshit all you like. That only tells me more about you, your inability to be objective, and your difficulties in controlling your own self than it does about anything else. I call bullshit on your judgment, attitude, abrogation of responsibilities, and mysoginistic claims on this thread. The way a person dresses does not automatically qualify them for less respect. Period. End of point. Choices, man. It's all about choice, the freedom to make them, and the ability to have them. Choice. Good grief, how hard is that to understand? If you can't accept that, you've got a lot of growing up to do. If you can't accept/respect choice in dress, then you certainly can't accept/respect another's religion, or food choices, or hairdressing. If you can't accept that people are people, no matter how they dress, and for that fact alone there is respect deserved, then you've got a long, long walk ahead of you. Intolerance and judgment abound in your world, apparently...and that, Darius, is a sad, sad thing. Hopefully, someday you'll mature enough to realize what is right and wrong, and that it has nothing to do with the amount of leg or cleavage showing. And maybe, someday, you'll accept responsibility for your own behavior, and not blame it on others' clothing. What? Two strong, intelligent women start to debate you based on another strong, intelligent woman pointing out your use of the word "whore" and you run away? Well, I suppose that is in keeping. We must've made you do it, right? Poor thing. I'd rather you be done with the attitude you have than with this thread, but it's YOUR CHOICE... She showing too much ankle again? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Darius, what I'm addressing is your stated view that people who dress a certain way are less deserving of respect than others who dress differently. My contention is that no matter how anyone dresses, they should be accorded the respect any human deserves. End of point. Your comment again makes me believe that you believe that a whore (your words) and/or a slut (again, your words) can be acceptably less deserving of respect than a woman who dresses according to your opinion a different, more "modest" way. Frankly, those are the sentiments of a certain sort of person. Some of those people are the same sort said, when a woman is raped, was "asking for it by the way she dressed" or who will rape a prostitute simply because she is a prostitute. And these are the same sort of people who abdicate their responsibilities in their actions, nearly always, by saying "they" (whomever "they" happen to be) caused it because "he looked at me funny" or "she doesn't know her place" or "they deserved it." All of that is hooey. YOU are the only one responsible for your actions. What I or other women choose to wear does not dictate your actions. End of discussion. They are the same sort of people who, judging by the clothing, will determine a person's IQ, ability to earn an income, and all sorts of other judgments on a person. And frankly, yes, I've made some of those judgments myself when I was younger. Happily, as I've grown up and matured, I've realized the person inside the clothing is what matters; and not how they appear on the outside. No, I don't think that you quite understand the most basic, fundamental issue upon which this country was founded. It's the concept of choice. Period. End of discussion. It's the ability to have more than one "choice" foisted upon you, and to make that choice for your own self between two options. If a culture, patriarchal and opressive to women, demand their women to wear a certain clothing, and there is NO choice but to wear that particular outfit, then there is NO CHOICE. If a woman is threatened with beheading if she doesn't dress appropriately, then there is NO CHOICE. No, Darius, you don't understand the CHOICE aspect of this country at all. You may have been exposed to it, may have used it, may have even taken advantage of it, but you don't understand it. Frankly, I would also say you don't understand a woman because you haven't been one. For you to say I don't understand a muslim woman because I've not been exposed to them is wrong...but you're right in I don't understand the religion because I haven't practiced it. But as a woman, I venture to bet I have a much greater understanding of being a woman than you do; likewise, you have a much greater understanding of being a boy than I do. I'm not PC. I'm being blunt. I will not defer to you; nor will I accept that choice is a bad thing. And sorry if you can't deal with it. I must've mistaken my place again. Sigh... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

You know the sex was good when..... When he stands up, stumbles, and cries out "you made me weak!!!" Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

A teddy bear is a great idea. And get a few Mylar balloons which say "welcome baby!" or "It's a Boy!!" along with a boquet of blue flowers. LOL! His Mom wouldn't object at all...and it's funny. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

In New York, they're not. Apparently (and I don't have the time to research, sorry), the courts handed down a ruling that said women could go topless, just like men. Do many do it? Nope...but I watched a documentary on a photographer who photographed women topless in New York City, and the hassle he (and they) got...and how the cops were chagrined to find the ruling on the books. LOL. Funny, that. I don't find it abhorrent, but I do have an issue with it. I am pleased that New York gave that ruling, and I wish the option were there for the rest of the states; it is on some beaches here, but not for the streets. Note I said option. It's about choice, when it all boils down to the bottom; choice. Would I choose to go topless or naked? Nope, unless it were my own home (as in now...). But can I ever state that someone else's choice in this regard (clothing...or lack thereof) is wrong? Nope. It's the same way I feel about abortion, and gun ownership...it's about choice. And in a culture where there is no choice for women, as in the original premise, then I think there should be choice. What a person does with that choice is their business, not mine. Nuns accept the restrictions when making their choice to enter the nunnery and go into service of God in that manner. Fundamentalist women do NOT have that choice. It's choice, pure and simple, when it comes down to it. That's all. And I wish there were more places choice was available throughout the world. And a woman making a choice to wear something I don't particularly think would work for me does NOT make her a whore or worth less respect than someone making a different choice in clothing. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

You just put me back in my place. Bad Michele, for thinking independently. Bad Michele for dressing like a whore. Bad Michele for having more than three brain cells working at the same time. Bad Michele, bad. See? I know my place. Apparently wrapped in black clothing so as to not stimulate the sexual fantasies of any stray man who crosses my ill-gotten path. Maybe I need a spanking. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

LOL. Well, but my point is that thinking about it doesn't mean a damned thing...it most certainly doesn't mean a damned thing about the way women dress...we could be covered like Nuns and men would still be thinking about it. The fact that men think about sex a lot doesn't mean shit. In fact, to blame women and the way they dress for a biological function in men is really stupid. And to dress a woman so a man doesn't think about sex is ridiculous...men will think about it anyway. So sure, hand over the responsibility and "blame" to a woman because of how she dresses...go ahead. That gives us women a ton of power, now doesn't it? LOL...frankly, I don't dress for a man...I dress for myself. If someone looks at me and says "whore" then I think that responsibility is theirs alone; after all, it's their judgment and not mine...and it's their issue, not mine. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Do you really mean to say that a woman who wears a pair of hip riding jeans and has her thong exposed, or wears a tank top with some cleavage showing deserves less respect than someone who wears a turtleneck or a pair of high riding jeans? You really mean to say that those who dress for the weather - i.e. a bathing suit at the beach, a pair of shorts and a midriff baring halter top in 100 degree weather deserves less respect than someone who doesn't? And if a man wears a pair of shorts, but no top, does that mean he is "showing his stuff" and deserves less respect than a man who wears a pair of loose jeans and a tee shirt? Wow. Darius, while I'm not "PC" per se, I do believe that your judgments are relatively strong and fundamentalistic...and that you judge books by their covers. I've known some women who, completely comfortable in their skin, wear skimpy clothing; that does NOT imply they are "whores" or women of loose morals...it just means that they are comfortable wearing certain clothing. And in my experience, men think about sex on a regular basis...does that make them "nasty" or "dirty" minded? Nope...but one could say that, couldn't one? "All men are dogs" because sex is on their mind... Your bias is showing pretty badly here...and yes, while you've been exposed to, and lived in, two diametrically opposed cultures, I'd say that perhaps exposure isn't quite enough to understand the underlying, basic tenants of this country. Sorry if I've offended you by speaking bluntly; but I'm simply using your own style of commentary to communicate with you. I don't mean to offend...but rather, expose a thought pattern which I tend to find both funny and abhorent. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Broken, I'm not clear. Just what in particular do you have against religion and those who are more spiritually inclined than you are? I'm simply curious. Can you elaborate, give examples, facts? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Boy, have you got that right...roflmao. Thanks. Sounds almost identical to a conversation I overheard...too funny. The truth is, though, not every woman is like that. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

And I think that's my point in the end, Jer. Even if it "does no good" to say no, say NO anyway...even if it's a republican controlled congress, if the democrats did anything, at least they could say "hey, we tried, instead of just letting it all go on without a fight." But apparently they're not quite capable of that. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

My cats... ~Simon (snow shoe siamese) ~Esse (dilute calico, aka Fatcat, The Mama) ~Charlotte (long hair pure black) ~Pie (psychotic but gorgeous calico) ~Abby (tri-colored moggie) ~Penguin (tri-colored moggie) Then the outside cats are: ~Emily (or Emile if it's a boy...dunno, don't really care) ~Xerox (mostly black with white feet and whiskers and eyebrows...very funny looking). All are rescues, all are neutered, all are cherished. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I dunno...maybe telling him "NO!" would at least pacify a public while the laws are challenged in court. It might show that someone, at least, is there doing "something" and that someone cares. I've been thinking that perhaps we should understand what the FISA court does, and also the RICO statutes, which allow the wiretapping without warrant (IIRC), and how those two work together after the 72 hours (again, testing my recall here...). I know there are, but it will take 10 years (perhaps) to wend their way through the court system, and as Lucky pointed out, the judges on the SC tend to be fairly conservative at this point, with no real change there immenent (good lord, I can't spell that today!). I was just wondering what those on the far left were thinking, and why their leaders haven't stepped up and done something; they tend to stand up and do something about a non-issue like Terry Schiavo, and are often seen speaking out against people like DeLay, and what'shisname (my brain is tired today...can't recall his name...). So I was hoping perhaps they'd stand up and do something with some teeth in it, or at least an open gesture, that would bring the issue to a head, rather than let it fester. Unless...there's nothing they want to do, because of the political climate and the elections coming in a few months and two years...that might be a motivation. Hrm... Sure enough. Just where we'll end is anyone's guess... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Just out of curiousity, as my research didn't turn anything up, have the Democrats introduced any sort of bill against warrentless wire taps? Challenges in support of the 4th Amendment (Search and Seizure)? Anything like that at all? Seems to me that if it were such an issue (and I think it might be), the fact that the Dems haven't (as far as I can find...) introduced anything to solidify their position in Congress and/or Senate tells me either I don't understand the full story (ala the legal intracacies) or that it might not be such an issue to begin with. After all, according to what I understand (and I could be wrong...), the Security Council knew about the wire tapping stuff, and approved it...so why no anger towards them? Why have they not made any sort of attempt at getting some sort of bill to prevent that? Just wondering if anyone had any insight on that. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Sorry! (Both for the scar and the gender mix-up...) Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I have some really interesting dreams at times, but always in color. If it's a "weird" dream, the colors are muted and vague...but often, I have brilliant colored dreams. I wish I could lucid-dream...that would help some of the nightmares I have. And they're doozies, although not like Jumpjunkie's where he actually cuts himself. That's scary... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Great question. Simple answer: no. Not liberal or conservative, just information and opinions from the guests. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

See, I don't think using one news source is a valid way to understand the situation. I'll check three, four, or more sources when something piques my interest. Generally, if all say "A" occurred, then it's rather likely that "A" in fact occurred. My brother swears Fox is middle of the road. My Dad swears that the LA Times is middle of the road. It's all about perspective, I guess...as for Fox News being most trusted, for me, it's simply a starting point to research. Like MSNBC is... Hey, even Bill Von has sourced stuff from Fox...Can't be all bad when our resident liberal leftie uses it... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Best vibes and prayers to them; regardless of being well fed, watered, and playing the pools, it got to be incredibly difficult to be stuck somewhere underground and waiting on rescue. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

As a woman who can't wear those stilleto heels (foot surgery), I am very thankful that there are some men who prefer runners or flats... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Yep. You'll see me whenever I choose to post...be it here or elsewhere on this site. You're really funny, Jen. I laugh every time you post! Would you deprive me of some amusement and jocularity? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~