Michele

I agree. However, I'll bet we'd disagree with something not based on lack of travel, you know? I mean, we will have ideological differences - we are unique and have different perspectives on things - but that is not because we travelled, or because we didn't. It's because it's the way it is... I have no college degree - but I know how to research things, I read a ton, and I look for information. Simply because I don't have higher education doesn't mean I am "less than", or a "sheeple" (gawd, I hate that word). Simply because I travelled does not automatically equate me with education and experience, either... Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree - but only if you've travelled. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Wow, I've travelled, too. Lots of times. And was even an exchange student! I didn't teach, but still... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Yes. I'll take SonnyChiba...but only if he'll wear the Pink protec in honor of the ladies.. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Sparky, I haven't. I won't. I can't. For all those who serve, be it in the miltary, in the ranks of Fire/EMS, or as Police officers, I say thank you. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I've been so busy, I haven't had a chance to pm you...but I need to. Look for it in about 30 minutes, darlin.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Ask as many times as needed, Laurie. It takes very little time to say a prayer, and works wonders. That said... A prayer sent as well as lots of vibes to Eric!!! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Hey, Adam... Relationships are tough....never easy, always a challenge. Have a long talk with her about what it feels like for you to know she believes lies and untruths about you, and then make a decision...No matter how pretty, smart, or how your heart pounds when you're around her, is this what you want in a partner? If so, then have at it...if not, then get free. There will be other girls for you... And WhoCares (how appropos...) I dunno....maybe this is a real issue to him? Who're you (or anyone) to say what is a real issue to Adam? How about not posting on a thread you don't see fit to contribute to? How about not posting this crap? Just a thought. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Get well soon, QTPi!!!! Southern CA vibes coming your way. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

October 3-5th... Check Elsinore's website... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I'm good at: ~Making Jessica laugh when I beg for her editing help... ~Research and digging around 'til I find what I am looking for ~Helping friends move ~Loving Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Freeflyz, you're psychic. Or you're lurking the women's forum again. LOL! Cora and I will be there! Gonna be a fun fun time!!! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

YAYAYAYAYAY you! When Cora and I were getting gas on Saturday, there was a ton of pinkshirted women walking around. I tooted my horn at them, waved, hollerd "GOOOOOOOOOOOO", and was pleased that I had contributed to one beautiful lady's successful participation. Lara, you and Jake are amazing, and inspiring. Thanks so very much. You both RAWK!!!! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Hi, Wendy. I am not envious of you - well I am, but not in this regard. There are a few things to consider. You are not someone who can help him, at least in an obvious way. You CAN take some steps to get him help, as long as it's "anonymous" and inapparent that you are the person doing it. Call a suicide hotline in your area, and ask them what they can do - maybe nothing, but they can give you some suggestions that will work within your jurisdiction that might help. Explain the "stalking" behavior to them, as well, and see if there's something that they are able to recommend on that level, too. Another thing you can do, which is a bit of a long shot and depends on your county/state law, is report him for stalking. Here in CA, there are steps that you can take which can get him into court-ordered counselling, after a DA hearing. I would check with the DA's office about this, though, as it is a step which might create great anger and difficulty to you. So be careful should this be the option you take. I would start with the suicide crisis hotline, and see what suggestions they can give you. Let me know if there's anything I can do from here. You know I will, in a heartbeat. Ciels- Michele PS And just as an aside, Mike, I disagree with lots of what you say...but this isn't the post to debate it. ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

True Not true... And how would you know this anyway? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Wow. Man. If you really think that's what's going on, I have lost a great deal of respect for your opinions. If you don't think that's really going on, and you simply posted for effect, I am greatly dissapointed in you. I am done reading this thread. Call that "giving up" if you will...but I don't like the flush of anger which your comment brought on. Because of that, and because I am having a difficult time refraining from commentary which I suspect would a) come from anger and b) simply exacerbate the situation, I think it's time I am done with this thread. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Hugs, girl. Gonna miss you tremendously, but now there's another reason to make it to Florida... Safe trip to you! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Hi, Nico! Vegas is lots fun...but I am not there. Squeak got me confused with someone else that Cora is meeting, so I am actually here in California, not spending money... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I am? Damn, I musta missed the plane. Chuck, if I could win the stupid lottery, or a jackpot, I'd share the wealth....but that's not too likely. But that reminds me, I need to pm you with something. Sorry, JT, no lunch with me today. I'm here in Burbank, trying to get some work done...we'll see how that goes . Hi, Nicolas! "Lesser" is not a common name - and yes, that's my last name too. Use the pm feature here to get in touch with me, alright? That's easier to use, and will get the note to me faster. How cool is this? I look forward to talking with you! And yes, I have a single "L" in my name.

hi, Whocares... Some discussion on funding, timelines, et al re: AQ, MAK, et al is contained below. OBL/AQ activities in the 1990's...(taken from a previous post dated May 22, 2003, Link "OBL was placed on the FBI's Most Wanted list June 07, 1999. If there was ample enough evidence at that point, it had been known for many years that OBL was a significant danger. By the time he had been placed on the list, AQ/OBL was known for the following: ~ 1993: Bin-Ladin was involved in operations against US troops in Somalia (Blackhawk Down). ~ 1993 (February) thought to have been involved in some of the planning of the first WTC bombing. ~ 1995 it is thought that OBL financed something called a "Gulf Battalion" organized by the IGR (Iranian Guards of the Revolution). It seems OBL had convinced Yemeni Sheik Abd-al-Majid al-Zandani to strategically position troops of the "Gulf Battalion" in al-Zandani's camps in Yemen for rapid use in Gulf countries when circmustances permited. ~ 1996 OBL is suspected by the US of being responsible for bomb attacks on American troops in Dharan, Saudi Arabia. ~ In mid-1996 a meeting of various leaders gatehred by OBL obtained an agreement "to use force to confront all foreign forces stationed on Islamic land," and to form a planning committee of sorts. ~ 1996 (August) OBL publically issued his fatwah "Declaration of War" against the United States. ~ 1996 (November) while denying culpability, he praised the bombings in Riyadh and the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, and promised other attacks would follow. He finally admitted the Blackhawk Down attacks on U.S. military personnel in Somalia and Yemen, declaring that "we used to hunt them down in Mogadishu". ~ 1997 (February)OBL states in a broadcast interview that "if someone can kill an American soldier, it is better than wasting time on other matters." ~ 1998 (February) OBL announces the new alliance of terrorist organizations, the "International Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and Crusaders." The Front included the Egyptian al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya, the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, the Harakat ul-Ansar, among other groups. The Front declared its intention to attack Americans, including civilians, anywhere in the world, as well as our allies. ~ 1998 (May) he stated at a press conference in Afghanistan that we would see the results of his threats "in a few weeks." ~ 1998 in August orchestrated bombings of the US Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, that killed at least 301 individuals and injured more than 5,000 others (here's his "few weeks"). Additionally, he [OBL/AQ] has been implicated in the following plans which were either interrupted or stopped somehow. ~ 1994 Pope john Paul assassination during his visit to Manila ~ 1995 President Clinton assassination during Philippines visit ~ 1995 "Project Bojinka" discovered in Manila; designed to bomb in midair US trans-Pacific flights (sound familiar?) (remind me to someday tell you about the guy who ran this one...interesting link to WTC 93...) ~ 1999, New Years Eve bomb Los Angeles International Airport in 1999. (bad guy was arrested crossing the boarder several days earlier...) Also plotted to carry out terrorist operations against US and Israeli tourists visiting Jordan for millennial celebrations in late 1999. To which I replied here are additional links and excerpt from those postings which discuss further the question of funding... "Billions were given to the ISI , who then passed it on to several different groups, among them the MAK. AQ was an offshoot begun as a split in ideological issues, and established in 1988. Therefore, AQ didn't exist until 1988 (or thereabouts), and so no funding could've come their way because they didn't even exist. As I said in my previous post, the funding was a foreign policy decision, made by Carter originally, and increased by Reagan, as a direct response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan at a time when the Cold War was on (but being won)." Link here Additional commentary re: OBL and funding here... Moving on... Which "Times"? Los Angeles Times? New York Times? Seattle Times? The Irish Times? The Sunday Times? Lots of different newspapers called the "Times". Since you refuse to source your liftings, at least can you tell me which Times they came from? Or are you just c/ping from other articles, and don't really know which Times? And further questions... how many years? Which years? Was AQ established then or not? Yes, I ran a google/Netscape search...the phrase I used to search with was: "Looking at the history of Afghanistan, we find troubling questions" What came up was http://free.freespeech.org/freeessex/stopthewar/roots.htm Note the second domain name...freeessex....Is this a website you rely on for world political analysis and accurate, factual information? and This Netscape search turned up 10 sites which all carry the original article by Richard Sele, UPI reporter. But it's a single article, and as far as I can tell, no mainstream media picked it up. I could be wrong in that assumption, but I draw that conclusion from a)the type of website it was carried on, and b)no website of "mainstream" media was indicated or returned in the search. Again, I ran an additional search, using another post...the phrases I used were: ~""Should we believe that the transformation from employee to enemy has really taken place?"" and ~ "Let's imagine that bin Laden et al are still CIA employees" What came up was a Emperors-Clothes Nowhere else was this article published... Um, I asked you to run a search to see what had been discussed, debated and argued over for several years. Above, I linked several posts which I spent some time on, and these were done several months ago. I did my homework... And you still haven't sourced your Saddam training...can you please do so? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Have a good safe trip - that sounds like a very interesting place to visit...take lots of pictures! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

When did I say you were? Yes, you're right....the "facts" are out there to be found. Such as Carter beginning the black ops funding of the Mujahadeen, and Reagan increasing the funding. Or even when MAK was founded, and when AQ was founded, and the reasons for the ideological splits between the two. And the assassination via car bomb of the head of the MAK. Or even that Clinton had 4 opportunities to apprehend OBL, and did not attempt to. Et cetera. Anyway, I am running off to the DZ...Whocares, rest assured I didn't say you were full of crap, just asked for sourcings. Sorry you found that insulting. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

you won't find me disagreeing with that, Mike...LOL, not at all. Never will you find me debating that. What happens, though, is people think we "selected" OBL for training, for some special reason. That is not the fact...and yet, people persist in insisting that it is that way. It's easier, I suppose, then looking at the real data - he was part of a movement that we could not fight openly; a war against communism fought by proxy, as it were...and because of that, funds and training were dispersed...but NOT directly to OBL, nor because of OBL. That distinction, it seems, is hard for some folks to grasp. Further, when OBL and his group splintered off from the Mujahadin, funding arguably stopped. OBL's history is somewhat sketchy after that, but there are some places we can trace him to - mainly Sudan, where he was expelled in '96 (I believe - maybe 94-95). Further study of this man and his followers, the ideology, and the missed opportunities from subsequent administrations is something to be discussed (and I don't have time right now...maybe later....). LOL, I suppose you could say that.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

What you are not understanding, literally, is who's side who was on at the time...if you don't have a good grasp of world politics and history, and the interweavings of allies and how they change from moment to moment, then you will have the opinion "we should've never..." instead of understanding (not agreeing with, necessarily, but understanding at least) how this can happen. Cidels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

The article is very interesting reading, but more of an Editorial commentary rather than "reporting"...still interesting, however...it's always good to read opinions and perspectives. However, this came from that page, as well. Granted, it is not what you suggested we look at, but it headed the page you linked to... The BIG question is: WHO are the masses? You?... the reader? If you have fallen - and continue to fall - for the massive lies, you might consider yourself as a mushroom: kept in the dark, feeding on bullshit, and soon to be gobbled up. Keep your eye on the REAL target: that is We, the people of America. Keep your eye on Orwellian legislation coming from your state and local governments. THEY - our elected officials - will become our terrorists, captors and jailers, for THEY are no more than putty in the hands of the builders of this New World Order. I tend to have a hard time with statements like that, irrespective of the fact that many people believe that is happening. Namecalling and bullying the readership just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Yes... Can you source your liftings? By this I mean, since you are not providing any link and/or indicia otherwise, and I know you didn't write this (look at the times of posting...) please provide a source that you took this from. Interesting reading, so I would like to see the sites you've c/p'd these articles from. Thanks. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~