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Ckret, Your logic on Cooper's rig choice actually changed my mind. I follow your logic here, so far, but if the found money maintained its grouping and orientation because it was in the bag, where is the other money? If there was a hydraulic force powerful enough to separate the rest of the money from the found money, wouldn't that force have also messed up the neat grouping of the found money? Keep feeding Sluggo. You don't want a guy like him going hungry. No telling what he might do. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Some DZ has done live air to ground video, but it apparently didn't impress customers any more than watching a DVD later. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

That Rodriguez Bros name proves that you are out of the ham closet big time! Wish I had your nerve. Maybe someday... SKYGOD: What's THAT? (looking at my 2 meter HT in a jumpsuit pocket). ME: Oh nothing, just an old chunky cell phone. 73 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Too bad those NWA pilots didn't have Duane Weber's lawyer. They might have got their sentences commuted. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Crket, because roughly 3% of the money was found we know for certain that Cooper lost the other 97%? Ckret knows but cannot disclose that Cooper was killed by the flight crew and dumped out with 3% of the loot. $184,000 will buy a lot of beer and those rowdy NWA 727 crews do like their beer. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEED6103FF934A15753C1A966958260 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Crket, because roughly 3% of the money was found we know for certain that Cooper lost the other 97%? There are some statisticians who would argue that Ckret is absolutely correct. The same ones who work for plaintiff's attorneys seeking to convince juries that smoke alarms cause cancer, AgHg dental fillings cause Lupus and MS, and that overheated Teflon cookware causes every disease known to man. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Thanks for the response Ckret. I figured that McCoy was such a strong suspect that it would take more than a weak alibi to clear him. Darn, McCoy was the perfect Cooper if you ignore the physical description mismatch. Alibis can be strong (e.g. many independent witnesses and physical evidence corroborating) or weak (e.g. a single corroborating witness who has a relationship with the accused). Steven Soliah, who the FBI is absolutely certain was a participant in the fatal SLA bank robbery in Carmichael CA, had a weak alibi (only his girlfriend testified in support of his alibi) but was aqutitted by a jury. McCoy's alibi appears much stronger than Soliah's. Even if you doubted McCoy's innocence, not much point prosecuting someone you can't convict. I am sure your statement that the Tena bar money find proves Cooper lost all the money in the jump will stir things up. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

What has any of this to do with DB Cooper? A fair question. Not much actually, just a very tangential relevance to guys who have stood on deployed airstairs of moving 727s. It seemed more on point when I was on my fourth cup of coffee... OD of caffeine can make you see clear patterns in utter chaos. Gotta switch to decaf. That being said, once in a while a random cosmic ray produces a gene mutation that is beneficial. The same kind of thing happens in this forum from time to time. Something out of left field will trigger a few neurons in Sluggo, Snowmman or another contributor and we are on to something relevant and new. If I don't like a post, I just skip it rather than criticizing it. Things have been amazingly cordial here lately, which makes Quade's job easier. Still, it's always open season on off topic ducks (quack quack) and you are free to take a shot. This isn't rigourous science, law enforcement or academic inquiry. It's fun, entertaining and might even solve the case. The average IQ here is pretty high and you never know what the collective forum brain might figure out. PAX GORT. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Sluggo, I googled him as Snowmman and found him (assuming there is a singularity) to be a renaissance mman, into a zillion diverse things and in some depth, but no further clues. Could it be some mashup of Snohomish man? Sonoma Man? I give up. Everything he does has a couple of levels. He probably ghost wrote The Matrix. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Ok, enough drifting in off topic territory, back to Cooper: Has Ckret ever answered the question about how solid McCoy's alibi was? I just wonder if McCoy's "at home in Utah" alibi was corrobrated by evidence other than just family and friends testimony. I could see a frustrated McCoy- Cooper losing the loot on the first caper and deciding to do it over and do it right. McCoy makes such a perfect Cooper. Could he have arranged a false alibi? One of the SLA bank robbery defendants, Steven Soliah, was aquitted in a jury trial with only a paper thin alibi from his girlfriend who was not a suspect. This was the 1975 Carmichael CA bank robbery in which Myrna Opsahl was fatally shot. The FBI strongly believed Soliah was a lookout at the robbery but his single person alibi corroboration saved him from being convicted. Soliah might also have been lucky in that a frightened customer who looked a bit like him fled the robbery scene. His defense lawyer argued that witnesses confused the two people in the excitement and fear. Alibis are powerful if the corroborating witness is "sellable" to a jury. Ckret, how airtight was McCoy's alibi? Are you 100% sure he was not Cooper or something less than 100%? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Ed Daly loved to drink and loved to shoot his gun (just shoot it, not shoot it at someone), usually at the same time which reportedly got him in trouble with the law a couple of times. I met his personal pilot and got a tour of Ed's plane at Oakland CA back in the 80s. You'd think with tons of money and a huge maintenance base at Oakland, Ed would have the sleekest corp jet of the day at his disposal. Nope. His personal plane was an absolutely immaculate Convair 340 with two R 2800 radial piston engines and a well stocked bar. It had all the latest avionics including a Collins HF SSB radio and had recently flown to Europe... slowly. That was one sweet propliner. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Thanks for the carpentry lesson Snowman. Is the term "sistering" common in house carpentry? I grew up in commercial fishing. My Dad put some "sister ribs" in our old boat to strengthen some original ribs which had rotted at the sites of the hull planking nails. He used nails and glue on the sister ribs just like you, then renailed the planks into the sister ribs. A little caulking and it was shipshape or "Skookum" as the Seattle guys called it. Didn't Snowman hide out on a NW salmon troller in real life when he was on the run from the FBI in that spy satellite espionage case? I explained 377. How about explaining Snowman? 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Naah, that "disappearing into the night sky" ending is too easy. We all want to know what happened after the stair exit? Splat or $Phat$ Who filmed the skydiving sequences in Point Break? Norm Kent? Anyhow, you could have the same guy film a really great night jump scene. You could then have it enhanced with all the special effects they have now. There was some action movie where a big Sikorsky helo (USAF Jolly Green?) drags a stuntman dressed as the movie hero on a line and lowers him onto a 747 in flight, right behind the upper deck hump. As I understand it the scene was real, not a special effects fake. Snowman, bet you can find the video. It shows that a turbine helo and jet transport can match speeds. We could spin the truth a bit and have Agent H actually getting the 727 in sight flying in a USAF helo without lights positioned above just behind and off to one side in Cooper's blind spot. He sees Cooper take a tenative step down. Is he just looking or is he ready to exit...then, clouds suddenly intervene and H maddeningly loses visual contact. He doesnt know if Cooper has jumped or is still aboard. Keep trailing or turn back and search? High tension music and H's anguish. What drives me nuts is the Tena Bar find. How do we write that into the script. I am eager to hear Galen Cook's story on this aspect of the case. it had better be good. Weber, Mayfield, McCoy... they can all have a role in the story as suspects. You don't know until the end who Cooper really is. Ckret's role is great for box office appeal because it can get in the Internet angle. We should probably have some genius kid solve it, that's how Hollywood resolves Internet based mysteries. Hey, how do we know the real ages of Sluggo and Snowman. I want to see if they post during school hours once summer is over. Snowman...hmmm... the Falcon and the Snowman... is he telling us something? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

reply] not true. For instance, while ckret may have real guns, I own 4 nailguns. Before I starting looking at this cooper thing, I was sistering 2x10's in a crawlspace. Now that really sucks in comparison. FOUR nailguns?? I have been operating under the assumption that you were a mortal with two hands. I know, I read American Rifleman, you need a different gun for different situations. Or...have you configured them as a single Gattling nailgun? A Snowman two penny Vulcan? In Kauai they don't use nails. They just chant and seek the assent of the 2x10s to bond in peaceful harmony. Just in case the spirits aren't willing, they notch, dowel, mortise, tie, glue or whatever... but no nailguns. No no no. That is wood murder and the Kharmic consequences are serious. Speaking of nailguns, have you watched the HBO crime series called THE WIRE? I have let my cable subscription lapse. This forum is more entertaining and it's free. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

"The available evidence suggests that the correlations between physical characteristics and personality traits are nearly always too small to be trusted for the needs of individual prediction." Possibily one could imagine this was key to Cooper's "not getting caught"...i.e. stereotypes. Stick with that thought, but you won't. uh....let's see, damned if I do, damned I don't. I've been dying to work in the phrase "Hobson's Choice"...I'm not sure it's exactly right, but it'll do. Just figure out the course Hobson would take if he wanted to keep Scylla and Charybdis equidistant. It's all about flight paths, as you and Sluggo well know. We all need a really funny Cooper t shirt or bumper sticker. Any ideas for text? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Georger, No shortage of those types on Kauai. I just got back from a one week vacation there. Bulletin boards offering the services of local residents are everywhere and not a carpenter or mechanic on any of em. Spritual coaches, channelers, energy healers, mystics, witches, aura analysts, rebirthers... you name it they have it. I hate to be a killjoy skeptic, but who rounds up the cattle and mends the fences there? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Fascinating. Can you provide a link? So where is ckret? Possibe new movie coming up: Ckret and Sluggo's Excellent Adventure Did anyone see the movie about the Zodiac killer? I can see the basis for a similar one here. That movie was all about painstaking research and not much action. DB Cooper wouldn't be as spine chilling as the Zodiac film, but it would sell some tickets. Clint Eastwood could be an aged DB Cooper. He is far from a perfect match but if he were in the movie it would make money. Somewhere in Alaska a script is being written... 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Actually, I am the Google. I have to answer a couple billion other queries in between this stuff ;) (edit) I believe the most important clue is he first asked for door open/stairs deployed in air. Then changed it to door open/stairs down. You saw that in the latest transcript (it's at Sluggo's site, from ckret), right 377? Nope, I missed that latest transcript. I'll have to take a look. If he first asked for an air deployment he still might be a loadmaster or similar. Maybe he had a good reason for changing the request. You and Sluggo are just too fast for me. I am a 286 and you guys are overclocked liquid cooled Intel latest model uPs operating in parallel and running some personally customized Linux OS. I just see your contrails and hear the sonic booms. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Wow! You find everything Snowman. There is no real search engine at Google, it's just you typing really really fast answers. I concede that a 727 can take off with stairs deployed, but it isn't normal operations for any tailgate aircraft where the ramp or stairs extends below the retracted position when deployed. Anything unusual that Cooper asked which raised serious safety of flight questions would add delay, and he was in a hurry. I don't see a loadmaster asking for a stairs down takeoff. He might ask that the bulkhead door be open, but why risk a tailstrike when it isn't necessary? Some planes like Skyvans have a tailgate that goes up not down for airdrops. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Do you realize what you just did with that post? Incriminated yourself - how old are you? reply] Jo, Glad to see you still have your sense of humor. As much as I want a Norjak suspect list number I am too young to be a viable Cooper suspect. I was only 22 in 1971. If you discount my age I'd have made a good suspect because in 1971 I was broke, had a lot of experience jumping surplus gear, had a collection of airliner flight/tech manuals, and had visited Seattle... but I'd NEVER EVER have picked the NB 6 rig if offered a Pioneer sport rig and a reserve as an alternative. I think Guru 312 is the only person on this forum who might have a real Norjak list number. I wonder if Ckret would release the list if we filed a FOIA request? If he did, it would probably have most names redacted. Maybe we should just make our own list and official Norjak suspect number t shirts. We all know who is at the top of your list Jo and I'd bet the rest of your list is blank. BTW, you have hinted that Duane might have used a railroad hand propelled "pump car" to exit the area by RR track. I have an interest in RR history. I think it is unlikely that any railroads in the NW had pump cars in active service in 1971. Also, RRs are very careful to secure anything that might be put onto a mainline by vandals. An idle pump car would be on a siding having been shunted off a main line via a track switch. Track switches are normally padlocked with hardened locks to prevent anyone but RR people from throwing them. Even if Duane found a pump car on a siding he'd likely have been unable to get it back on the main track without breaking or picking a tough "tamper proof" lock on the track switch mechanism. Good luck on your NW odyssey. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I met a US civilian pilot who flew clandestine airdrop missions in Cambodia and Laos in the 60s. They didn't use 727s and he was not aware of any 727s being used for those kinds of missions... but you never know what you don't know. He thought a 727 would be a poor choice given the availability of far more suitable aircraft for airdrops. Even C 130 Hercules don't take off with the ramp down, so the Cooper as loadmaster/jumpmaster idea runs into some friction here. Asking that the NWA 727 takeoff with the stairs down indicates some actual (or perhaps feigned?) naivety about paradrop operations. Given his impatience, it is unlikely that Cooper would add to the delay by knowingly asking for a takeoff configuration that was not do-able. If Cooper thought a 727 (or any rear ventral exit plane) could take off with the ramp or stairs down, it could indicate that he had no actual experience in dropping people or supplies from tailgate aircraft. Cooper's reported giddiness or child like response upon receiving the money strikes me as odd. I just don't know enough about psychology to decipher that clue. I somehow don't see a hardened military special ops veteran like Wolfgang acting that way, but maybe I have just been indoctrinated by watching too many action movies. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

If Cooper was as smart as some think, he would have carried a pocket VHF AM receiver so that he could listen to comms between the plane and the outside world. If the FBI were planning to storm the plane they likely would have communicated this info to the cockpit crew. He might also learn about plans to track the flight, block takeoff, etc. You could get small analog tunable air band radios for under $20 back then. They were just AM transistor radios with an additional freq converter stage. They were not very selective which was an asset when trying to find transmissions. If the signal was strong, as it would be if you were inside the airplane making the transmission, it would leak through no matter where you were tuned enabling you to retune to the exact frequency and hear both sides of the conversation. I used one inside an airliner parked at the gate and you could easily hear all comms including an update on catering truck arrival, and the tower inquiring about expected pushback time. A guy with Wolfgang's background probably would have thought about this. So would anybody who had pilot training. I still think Cooper's gear choice strongly implies non-skydiver (sport jumper). I know others disagree. Almost every jumper in that era heard stories about the good old days when men were men and jumped sleeveless surplus mains. The openings were described as hitting a brick wall in the sky. In a jet jump you are never sub terminal. You are going to be carrying money, lots of it and not secured perfectly. The last thing you want is a brick wall canopy deployment. Just my thoughts. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I don't think there is any flying pigs club (like that name). Ham radio is generally considered an uncool nerdy hobby, so skydivers with ham licenses don't advertise it at the DZ. Sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. The reverse isnt true at all. Ham radio people are usually interested in skydiving just because it is an extreme sport and ham radio is at the other end of the hobby-risk spectrum. I think we set a record at a recent local ham club meeting with three jumpers in attendance. Has anyone ever seen a ham radio antenna on a Porsche, Ferrari or even a Vette? Pretty rare. APRS (automatic position reporting system) opens up a lot of possibilities for crossover work between ham radio and skydiving. You'd have to work with a rigger to be sure the install was safe, but APRS makes it possible not only to track your cutaway main, but to have its location automatically mapped on Google and accessible on the web. If you have an Internet capable cellphone or PDA you could probably find it without any GPS receiver or radio direction finding gear. You can get an APRS transmitter with an integrated GPS that is smaller than a pack of cigarettes. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Bill is right. I don't think ANYBODY makes a killing running a DZ, tunnel or no tunnel. Have you ever run the calculations or looked at the business model? We jumpers are so lucky that there are people with enough capital to establish and maintain a DZ and financial judgment poor enough to actually do it. Those of us lucky enough to have jumped the Perris jet probably got a $300 ride for about $100 if you figure in everything. I'll bet the jet has been a red ink operation from day one. I know how incredibly tough it was to get the FAA to permit jumps from their DC 9. If they had used aviation lawyers and consultants to do do that certification work the bill would have been well into six figures. Do you think the two guys up front or the cabin crew are making airline wages? Can you imagine the cost for the engine changes and maintenance work if it weren't done by Perris based A&Ps? For a DZ to have actually gone from idea to a jumpable pax jet is nothing short of astounding. We got a gift, big time. We owe the Conatsers a big thank you. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

not a bad idea... 10 meters much easier antenna length to deal with. Getting mighty close to just taking a CB. Might try that first and see how it goes. 160 meter parachute mobile QSO would sure be a kick, but quite a hassle too. Anyone tried a throat mic? I have read that they pick up almost no wind noise, but have muffled (but intelligible) audio. They were used in noisy WW 2 aircraft. Icom 703 is a bit big, but that's what I have to work with so far. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.