377

You raise some valid points and make me wish I had thought of them myself. If you didn't own a rig, buying a jumpable one in 71 without a trace would be very hard to do. I have never seen a ready to jump military rig in a surplus store even back in the 50s and 60s. A non skydiver buying a rig from a jumper sure would have set off some alarms once the Cooper hijack took place. Everyone who made such a sale would be wondering if Cooper had been the buyer. Non skydivers/jumpers give themselves away soooo fast when they are trying to bluff experience. I recently met a guy who had wowed all the women at a party with his tales of jumping as a Green Beret. I dont know enough about Special Forces to know if that part was fake but I can guarantee he had never made a ram air HALO jump. I just kept my mouth shut and let him rant on about how the Green Berets can steer their "parasails" into tiny "dropzones". On the other side of that coin, a ridiculously nerdy guy who worked at my local Radio Shack heard that I jumped and mentioned that he had made a few military jumps. Turned out this skinny awkward kid really had been in the Special Forces and knew all about HALO HAHO, the gear, how it was rigged etc. You just never know... 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Why didn't Cooper bring his own rig? Would have saved LOTS of time and would have totally spoofed the cops who would have been expecting him to land with the plane somewhere. Once he asked for the chutes, it was clearly going to be a jump and run situation. I have put rigs in overhead racks back in the day. It was easy, just bag it and nobody knew what it was or showed any concern or interest. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Might come from the jury instruction. WASHINGTON, March 22 Examining the way judges instruct juries on finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, the Supreme Court today warned states that a common definition of reasonable doubt that refers to jurors' "moral certainty" of guilt is outdated and potentially confusing. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

If Cooper splashed... Bodies do disappear in the ocean. They don't go into the fourth dimension, but they do sink, are attacked by crabs and other scavengers who rip things up before any cavities can fill with decompostion gas products and refloat the corpse. Crabs can really work fast when they are numerous and hungry. They are competitive little beasts. There have been numerous cases where a man overboard in the ocean goes under in full view of his would be rescuers and is never seen again. I don't know if a similar phenomena happens in fresh water bodies of the type found in the likely Cooper LZ. Coopers gear wouldn't float up later if it went down with him. Wet nylon is not positively bouyant. I went out on a recovery boat on a USAF ANG Pararescue ocean drop exercise a few years ago. Their canopies sink when they have to cut them away. I want Cooper to have survived the jump, but I have to admit that a splash could explain why no body or gear was ever found. I guess you'd have to find a likely splash point that was deep enough and relatively dormant to explain why his remains would not have washed up somewhere. Phat or Splat? Cash or Splash? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I can't come up with a plausible FBI coverup story. They have some black marks in their past (e.g. COINTELPRO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO) but generally they REALLY want to solve crimes, not cover them up. There have been cases that pointed to FBI corruption and they were pursued vigorously with zero coverup efforts (e.g. John Connolly, the rogue FBI agent who helped the mob). When has anyone proven an FBI coverup? I've seen it alleged regarding Vince Foster, JFK, UFOs, etc, but I cannot recall a proven FBI coverup. Am I forgetting some well known sinister FBI event? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Sluggo, Your website is better suited for this stuff, but this forum has FAR more readers and participants. I'd ride it out here. I see no signs of an imminent shutdown. This forum often lacks scientific rigor and sometimes goes off topic (I am an offender) but it is vibrant active and has a national audience. Also, Ckret is on it which is a huge plus since he has the good stuff (like investigative data from when the case was fresh). Feel free to set up any adjuncts you wish but don't sign the death certificate for this forum, it's still breathing. I am still wondering about that shoe. Is it real or urban myth? A single non hiking shoe found in the back country would be very odd. Slip on street shoes do come off in freefall/canopy deployment, I can tell you from first hand experience. I lost one of the pair I was wearing. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Georger, Relax, ignore "lines". This forum is free speech at its best. I haven't seen anything on this forum even during the Quade repression era that would give rise to a solid defamation/libel suit. Damages have to be proven by the plaintiff and what provable non speculative quantifiable damages arise out of anything said here, even if malicious and untrue? Fire away. It's open season here. You add a lot of value on this forum. Don't let ruffled feathers chase you off. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Night jump was just less stupid than a day jump. Both were stupid. Very high risk of death, very high risk of caper being foiled before takeoff, very high risk of post-jump capture. If Cooper survived, it was more luck than brains. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I just hit 300 Friday night. That PROVES the FBI has implanted sensors in my brain. I need thicker aluminum for my helmet. Foil does not work. I am nice to Ckret because I get shocked if even think disparaging thoughts about his employer. It would be interesting to find out more about the shoe allegedly found by the Army searcher. It's a real long shot but if it were Cooper's shoe it would give you better exit info than the money or the placard. Gives a Cinderella aspect to the case. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

OK then, what happened to Cooper? Seems like everyone, you and I included, has been doing a lot of "what if" stuff here. No worries, this is entertainment, not a life or death professional investigation. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

That wav file makes Johnny Cochran sound like a minstrel clown. Nothing could be further from the truth. Some of his OJ closing argument antics sounded a bit silly, but they worked. Johnny was no clown, believe me. I saw Johnny Cochran in court back in the old days when he was working for civil servant wages as an asst. DA in LA. He was an awesome prosecutor. Meticulous, articulate and absolutely relentless. Good thing for OJ that Johnny had gone to the more lucrative defense side by the time OJ was charged. If Johnny had been prosecuting OJ he would have gone down. For sure. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

What is the Chewbacca defense? Tell me more. I've always thought we should trust flight artifacts on the ground to determine flt path, eg placard, money and possibly even that lone shoe allegedly found during the search by Army soldiers. True, we only have two data points and the money may have moved a bit, but if the flight plots in the FBI files do not correlate with the finds on the ground then chuck the flight paths or at least don't treat them as highly accurate. I once made a hasty jump with street shoes and street clothes, an after work quick trip to the DZ lark. They shoes were slip ons and fit tight, but one blew off. What kind of shoes was Cooper wearing? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Another similarity to the Zodiac case is that it was known for throwing up many suspects who could all be made to 'match' the profile. There was a term used for this in the Zodiac context but I can't remember what it was. fyi http://www.zodiackiller.com/Suspects.html OK... begging the forum's indulgence, I can't really face going through 17 pages of posts since I was away... were there any significant developments? Orange1, No, nothing major since you were gone. That's not to downplay the quality of the work done in your absence, it's been top notch... but the forum has not really solved any substantial mysteries while you were away. Welcome back! 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Sure would be sweet, but Don Kirlin, Mr. 727 jumpship, was not able to pull it off at the last few WFFC's. 727's are real fuel hogs and require a flight engineer. Still, they have a top speed higher than more modern airliners in trhe same weight class. Donald Trump owns TWO of them. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

The FBI has a real Cooper suspect list that is numbered, but it has not been released to the public. I'd bet Many skydivers are on the list. We know Ted Mayfield is on the list. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

VERY cool! Would love to come and watch. Non steerablle rounds?? You Dutch skydivers are TOUGH! Ya gonna jump em unsleeved and open at terminal? Hope not. Having survived a lot of surplus round jumps it baffles me why anyone would want to recreate that misery. Well actually, only the openings and landings were bad. The ride was quiet and calm. I miss those peaceful descents. Hey Beatnik. You hitch hiking to Holland? 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Ckret, Sure hope you can get a TV show to recreate the jump. Dont worry if you cant get a 727, any turboprop tailgate aircraft can be a pretty good substitute, especially a CASA 212, which if firewalled could likely match the Cooper exit speed. I did a high speed exit out of one and it was almost an identical experience to the DC 9 jet. Try the local USAF/ANG Air Rescue Squadron. Their PJs can jump out of anything and in to anything... and they have an HC 130 Herc to play with. They even do high seas night jumps and other incredibly hazardous practice jumps. They also have specialized GPS gear to record tracks and do navigation under canopy (using a fold out plotting board no less, at least that's what they had a few years back). I'll bet they would welcome the publicity and it would make a great training jump. Good luck. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Would it make sense to assume that the entire bag arrived at T Bar and that the other bundles were found earlier by someone who kept their mouth shut? Is it possible that the money Ingram later found could have been near the other earlier found money, but not seen? I know we have zero facts about where the rest of the money went but what is the most likely explanation? Did it get swept further downstream? Was it ever at T Bar? Can you imagine the agony if Cooper survived, but lost the bag in the jump? Talk about a bad day... Gives a double meaning to the word "loser"... 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Cow: ground to ground air breathing anti aircraft missile. Maybe we should have carried them in B 17s and parachuted them onto German airfields in WW 2. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Snowmman, I found one when I was a kid, made by the VIZ company as I recall. It had a big copper aneroid bellows driving an altimeter (bellows drove a pointer which served as a wiper on a linear potentiometer). It had hygrometer and thermometer sensors and a radio transmitter using a very small specialized UHF vacuum tube. I kept mine and played with it for years. I figured the data had already been received and it was badly weathered and unlikely to be suitable for reuse. You can now buy much more sophisticated weather balloon sensor/transmitter packages unused (govt surplus) and dirt cheap (under $30). Some even have Loran C or Omega receivers to relay position data. Maybe buying one would sooth the lingering reget that someone beat you to the find and just left an empty box. http://www.tinaja.com/bargains/sbmilit.asp Wonder if someone found most of the Cooper money bundles at T Bar before the Ingram kid found his? That would explain a lot. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

You raise some really good points about the money and the bag Snowmman. Your scenario about the bag being held to Cooper not by direct point to point attachment but by residing within tightened loops of suspension line makes sense. That line is slippery and that mode of bag attachment is doomed to come apart in a high speed jet exit. A skydiver would probably forsee this and use a different means of attachment, perhaps cutting small holes in the bag to give entry and exit points for line. I too wonder where the other bundles went. Hard to figure how just a couple of them got very neatly deposited at T bar and the others just disappeared. I can see how the bag may have remained closed on top after departing from Cooper during the jump. I know a few knots that would have kept it closed. Wish that TV show Myth Busters would take on a Cooper assignment. this stuff is right up their alley and would have a lot of viewer appeal. Is the show still being produced? Your cow eats rocket story was interesting. I have a better one. A friend flying an old Navion (sort of a Bonanza calss private plane) suffered an engine failure and had to put it down in a huge flat cow pasture. The landing was good, gear down and it looked like there was no damage to the airframe. They left the plane and came back a week later to see if repairs could be made with the thought of flying it out. They were shocked. The cows had torn up the airplanes SHEET METAL to the point that it was beyond economical repair. Just how large was your "model" rocket? Knowing you, it probably violated the SALT treaty. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I know I am speculating, but when I consider all the facts, I conclude that the most likely outcome was Cooper lived, lost the money in freefall and was not a skydiver. Basis for speculative conclusions: Cooper lived: No body or gear found. Finding of smaller items says search was thorough enough to find a body and rig if jump was fatal. Also, no unresolved missing person cases were reported that were a good Cooper match. Cooper lost the money in freefall: The T Bar find of stacked organized bills makes me think that bag was lost. Far more likely that it was lost during the jump than during a trek out. Cooper was not a skydiver: His choice of an unsleeved emergency rig with no reserve attachment points over a sport rig which also had D rings for attaching a reserve says non skydiver to me. No skydiver I know would choose an unsleeved main for a high speed deployment. Remember, Cooper was never at subterminal speed. OUCH! Lack of skydiving experience might have made him unrealistically optimistic about jump forces resulting in inadequate securing of money bag to his rig/body. I think a skydiver would have secured it adequately. Maybe a body wasn't found because they were searching in the wrong area, but remember, the money and placard were found by chance, not part of a search. If Cooper went in it is likely that his body and rig would have been found by now. This isn't Siberia. It is a populated area and the less developed areas are probably observed/traversed by hunters, hikers, pot farmers and land owners. I applaud the painstaking research on flight path and money hydraulic path. Maybe it will lead us to a Cooper body search area that was previously overlooked. I agree with Ckret on 2 of the 3 points. He thinks Cooper died on the jump. I see no evidence that Cooper died, but I am keeping an open mind. Somewhere in Alaska, Galen Cook is trying to make all of his pieces fit the puzzle. Calls are being made to New York book publishing agents and Hollywood screenplay deal makers. To distract himself from nagging inconsistencies in the Wolfgang as Cooper story, Galen surfs sports car websites. That new Porsche Carerra sure looks good to him and motivates him to push harder. Ckret works hard on a stack of open bank robbery investigations and figures he can keep the family car running for another five years. He thinks about guys half as smart making twice as much in cushy corp. security director jobs, but money never was the main lure in his career. Late at night, during unpaid overtime, he blogs with us amateur sleuths giving us a critical link to the official Cooper investigation. Sluggo plays with his grandson and makes sure to keep him away from that lead lined isotope closet. While we sleep, he fine tunes his 128 dimensioned matrix model integrating radar data, predicted jump trajectory, local weather, terrain and hydrology. He has a very good idea where Cooper jumped but nothing solid on his identity yet. Jo scrutinizes maps and pinpoints critical "Cooper places" Duane took her, hopeful that her upcoming NW trip will find some new links. Duane knew way too much about the case, far more than was ever published. She is 101% certain that her husband was Cooper and gets exasperated at those who will not see. She is still holding on to a few trump cards. She has been around too long to show her hand early in the game. Snowmman toils in the facility depicted in his aerial photo doing the Devil's work. They don't even have laws to restrict his activities, they are that far ahead of the curve. He has to watch his power consumption though. Running 512 parallel processors might make him look like an indoor pot farmer to the law enforcement software that monitors and analyses electrical power usage. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Reply> The money arrived no earlier than 1974, and no later than the last flood which could have left it there, minus time for silt eroded in the meantime to yield the 2" silt overlay found. Just an observation for what it is worth. In my many years of commercial fishing both coastal and mid ocean I have never seen bundled paper (like a rolled up newspaper) floating offshore. Stuff like that loses buoyancy quickly and sinks. You see plastic and even cardboard floating, but not paper. Whether currency acts differently I wouldn't know. I could only afford to throw coins overboard. When I was a kid fishing with my Dad we couldn't afford radar. We used to go under the Golden Gate bridge in darkness and thick fog heading for the fishing grounds. I used to toss a penny overboard for good luck every time we went under the GG Bridge. We needed the luck, believe me. The sounds of the freighters horns in the fog scared the hell out of me as a kid. You couldn't see them and you could only pray they could see you on their radar and avoid you. Someone (Jo, Sluggo?) mentioned experimenting with bundled dollar bills. What was the float time? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Thanks Georger. I'll check it out. All I ever see are white clouds with far less detail, but still a thrill. Guess you need time exposure CCD camera setup and a tracking scope mount to get these kinds of amazingly beautiful photos? Looks like something from the Hubble scope. Snowmman is right about no logical basis for positively concluding that the money was washed onto Tina Bar (sp?), but I think all the attention to flow and paths makes good sense as it might tell us where Cooper jumped. It is amazing to me that any jump artifacts have been found. The fact that two were found, the money and the placard, makes me think that if items as large as Coopers body and rig were out there, they likely would have been found. Thanks to you, Sluggo, Safecrackin PLF, Snowmman and the others who have put so much research into the subject of flight path, river flows and the money find. I remain skeptical about the money find, but it may have happened just as reported. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Skydiving makes crack seem like bowling. That's a lot better than the T Shirt text I originally proposed. It gets rid of the dated Point Break reference and is not pro drug. I also kinda like this one, since beer is as much a part of skydiving culture as canopies. Skydiving makes crack seem like beer. Or... with an ironic twist: Skydiving makes beer seem like crack 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.