377

I hear the French drop paratroopers from 400 ft. Fortunately I never had to jump lower than 2500. I didnt like that and I sure dont like 1200 or 700. I call those kinds of jumps a mil spec low pull contest. I watched some insanely low cutaways from SKYHOOK RSL systems at a demo once. I swear they couldn't have been higher than 300 ft. I literally felt sick watching them. That SKYHOOK gave them fully opened reserves so quickly I couldnt believe it. Did Cooper even open? How high? The fact that a chute was never found makes me think he might have gone in as a no pull. They found money, they found a door placard, but no body and not a trace of the harness, container or canopy which are large sized objects relative to the items that were found. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Georger, I have a car, a jumpsuit and a girlfriend. No horse, no beachfront house, no yacht. Do I need to change my priorities? Most skydivers are folks of modest means. Who else would drive an extra 50 miles for jumps that are two dollars cheaper than the local DZ? I only met one really rich guy with a jumpsuit. He came to WFFC with his own million dollar Twin Otter jumpship. I was dining next to him at an outdoor BBQ dinner at WFFC and overheard people gushing about how much money they had made investing with him. He later was indicted, convicted and imprisoned on securities law violations. It was all a scam. He must have had other investors besides jumpers. You could loot every jumper in the country and probably never get enough for a Gulfstream V or a megayacht like Stanford had. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Nahh, I couldnt prosecute him, but I'd defend him pro bono in a heartbeat. Actually I'd rather be on the jury. Thats a good idea for a book or even a movie, The Trial of DB Cooper. You could weave in all the spooky SE Asia stuff and with computer graphics the jump itself could be done really cheap and very convincingly. Everyone went nuts over The Hurt Locker, except me. I thought it was a good but not exceptional movie. Anyone agree? Maybe Old Hollywood feels a bit threatened by Avatar. No more real actors are needed. You dont have to pay huge fees and residuals to virtual "actors" who do not exist in real life. No superstar butts need be kissed, no temper tantrums tolerated, and the casting couch won't decide who gets the role any more. Oh, and District Nine at least got nominated for an Oscar. It deserved to win one in my opinion. Great SFX, and actually superb acting by the leading man. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

That would keep the plane below about 10,000 ft to assure sufficient breathing oxygen in ambient air. The pilots had supp O2 they could use but the stews didnt (at least not without taking a tank and mask down from an overhead) and they could be injured by high flight without pressurization or at the least lose consciousness. The unpressurized order limited altitude and the gear down order limited speed. That says smart to me not dumb. That says he had some aviation knowledge. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I too doubt that the Cooper 727 had GPWS in 71, but I'll defer to others with more knowledge. I still get a kick out of that USAF Herc (C 130) driver who DID manage a chase and visual intercept on Cooper's 727 when two hot shot F 106 jocks out of McChord AFB aided by the most advanced intercept system know to man, (SAGE and the F 106's onboard MA-1 system) couldn't do it. I wonder if they stencilled a 727 silouette under the Herk's cockpit window? The oft repeated story that the F 106s couldnt fly slow enough to stay on the 727 is BS from what I read in the Dash 1 operating specs for the F 106. It could easily fly at 727 speeds being flown that night. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Thus revealing his USAF background. A Navy flyer would have referred to a NATOPS rather than a Dash 1 (flight manual). STANEVAL anyone? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Cooper jumped a 727 and left with all the loot. Either he was incredibly lucky (at least up to the exit) or he planned it reasonably well. It could be either one. Carr was convinced he was a loadmaster or kicker or some sort of military aircrew but not a pilot. I have always wondered if that was based at least partly on something the FBI never made public. I am certain there are some material details that remain non public so they can sort out the Webers and Daytons from the real Cooper. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Yes he did, but it WORKED. HE DID EXIT. Nobody knows (except Jo) what happened after the exit. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Good one! ...but you dodged the tough question. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I go back and forth on that one. His actions are consistent with those of a whuffo but also consistent with those of an experienced aircrewman. I'd sure want a steerable canopy thousgh, and he didnt pick one. If I didnt know what my exit speed or altitude above ground would be I'd probably chose the C9 over a PC. The PC could blow up at high speeds and the C9 probably wouldn't. C9s are among the strongest personnel canopies ever made. If I knew I could freefall for a while and slow down to 120 I'd have gone for the PC, but there were mountains in the area and extended freefall could kill you. All in all I think I would have taken the NB6 (or NB8?) rig, just as Cooper did. Relaible, strong and if you werent a skydiver you might worry about how to fly a sport chute. Cooper could be a mastermind SOG type or a REALLY dumb whuffo jackass. It's that dichotomy which drives me nuts in trying to figure out what kind of person he was. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I guess we just disagree Quade. To me, knowing that the 727 door will open for ground exits doesnt guarantee jumpability. I'd have figured that even if you could open the door, the airloads would push the stairs back up towards the fuselage making exit very difficult or impossible depending on clearances. Hell, not even the 727 pilots or FE knew the airstairs would open enough for jumping and had no idea what the effects on aircraft pitch or control would be. They had to contact Boeing through NWA dispatch in Minneapolis to get answers. Someday Norjack will be solved and we will know Cooper's identity with certainty. Amelia's plane will also be found. I just hope they happen in my lifetime. Quade, if YOU were given a million dollar investigative budget and hired as sort of a special prosecutor to re-open the Cooper case, what would you do? What would you look at? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

YES, great video! I didn't like S/L jumps, too low for my taste. I dont like to be able to tell a Ford from a Chevy at exit altitude. Somehow its different opening at 2500 ft after a long FF than exiting at 2500 ft with an S/L. Notice thre "squidding" of the T10? canopies before they fully deployed? I wonder if the Air America 727 S/L canopy deployments had appreciably longer squidding duration? Watching the ground approach fast in the footage filmed from a WW II paratrooper reeenactment jumper POV makes me REALLY appreciate canopies that flare. I somehow managed to do over a hundred porous worn out C9 jumps without giving any business to the orthopredic surgeons. Never managed to stand up even one of those brutal C9 arrivals but easily did standup landings under the used PC that I bought when everyone else was going to squares. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Quade preclaimed: I think it is highly likely and just plain logical to assume that Cooper KNEW a 727 could be jumped. Sure, it's a guess, but it has logic to it. Cooper might have been an ignorant idiot, but his alleged commands about flt levels and flap settings suggest otherwise. If you couldnt jump the 727, you were doomed to be captured upon landing. Cooper needed to be off the plane when it landed and parachuting was the only way to accomplish that. Finding out who knew about the jumpability of a 727 prior to Norjack could lead you to Cooper's ID. Why is that such a ridiculous assumption? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Sheesh Quade, we aren't THAT useless. This forum dug up the Air America 727 pre Norjack jumps, SOG ops and Ted Braden, smoke jumper CIA covert air ops links and an obscure but very qualified suspect that the FBI had independently identified but kept quiet about. None of it proves who Cooper was, but this info represents respectable investigative results. My Ouiga board hasn't produced much. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

A very thought provoking post G. I like it when people think out of the bax and question so called "expert" conclusions. Maybe all the money was there but they only excavated about $5800. Hmmmm. I'd like to hear TK's views on the money fragment deposit scenario. Has he stopped working on Norjack or is TK just working in silence? I think Bruce is off to a good start with is manuscript, but Cossey fed him BS about a "Paradise chute" IMHO. I've given Bruce some edits to clean up the glaring gear errors. If Bruce wants to get the maximum chance of publisher acceptance he should leave out the CIA MK Ultra stuff, at least on the initial submission. The SOG stuff is OK. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Yeah, I declined that ride, waaaay too hot which means a lot less engine power and less lift, a very bad combo for an old plane with piston engines that for sure don't deliver the same power they did when new. Dean, the WFFC air boss, who I think is also an FAA ATC when he isnt flying jumpers or skydiving himself, said Fat Annie cleared the trees by less than 10 feet on that infamous takeoff. Believe it or not that plane is fairly close to max gross weight with 80 jumpers and enough fuel to haul them to 12 or 14K. The FAA Flight Standards "plane cops" saw that TO and didn't like it at all, but just told them to use the longer runway next time and didnt ground the plane. I guess no rules were broken, just bad judgment. I took my Carvair ride on cool day in the evening, the last flight it made at WFFC. It got off the ground just fine with a full load and plenty of runway left. We jumped at about 6000 ft as I recall, but the tickets were really cheap ($28) for what was supposed to be only a hop and pop dues to low clouds. The clouds broke and they generously gave us extra altitude It was a kick watching the jumpmasters relay info to the pilots via a ladder built into the fuselage wall and leading upstairs to the cockpit area. That plane was so rare that a few plane nuts (non jumpers) travelled all the way to Rntoul from the UK just to see her fly and shoot photos. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Weber was in Goldendale, Washougal, The Dalles and Hood River - want to wager that one? If you do be sure you have DEEP pockets. For pocket money he cleaned a store in one of the areas. I am unimpressed. Put him in a parachute. Putting him in the general jump area does nothing for me. Is Mickey Mouse the person you referred to long ago as "mouse?" Who is "gagging" you and why do you permit it Jo? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

No worries about your reputation Sluggo. Jo can't blemish it. Jo is now a riddler as well as a tease. Mousketeers, Snow Balls, etc mean a lot to her but sure don't tell me anything useful. If Jo reveals anything it will probably be a concoction of coincidences, speculation and imagined conspiracies rather than probative unambiguous facts. I keep wondering about Galen's report about witnesses seeing an apparently burning red object fall from an aircraft that night in an area that might be in the 727s flight path. The part about supposed govt agents visiting the witness who reported it and advising the witness th shut the f-uck up sounds phony. Why would the govt care? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Welcome back Jerry! Hope those ribs heal well and fast. Does BK have a double cheeseburger for a dollar? I think the dollar menu at McD's is subsidized by the heart surgeons. "Would you like a triple bypass with those fries sir?" Jo has gone into full blast tease mode. Instead of telling us we have no idea about "what's going on" why not simply tell us? I'll bet a dollar double cheeseburger that she cannot put Duane in a chute. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

There were two in GA. One was Fat Annie in different colors and the other crashed on TO killing all the crew. They lost an engine during the TO run, tried to abort the TO, but went off the end and into a building. There is a GREAT but pricey book out just about Carvairs. Very detailed history of each plane. http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Atl-98-Carvair/William-Patrick-Dean/e/9780786436705 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

is that all? I load mastered the CARVAIR at the WFFC. 2 passes of 55-60 jumpers each. And as far as I know, the only ones that landed off were the individual jumpers in the last groups, that tracked hard, THE WRONG WAY. Maybe they should have had you on hand for all the special plane loads. In '06 they were putting jumpers out on the other side of I-57 with the DC-9. I know cause I was one of 'em. What Spence really needs is an AN-2. It really sucked that I couldn't make it there in '06. I would have happily called the exit on the '9! One particular Carvair jump I remember really well. 1 person landed off, but just barely. On the outside of the fence at the end of the runway. I know this really well, because that jumper was ME! 1st pass was fine. Circled around, second pass went off without a glitch. Walked up front to check in with the other LM (Captn Happy) that was relaying my messages to the cabin. Walked back to the door, and out I went. No wingsuit, so i just used the entire jump to track back towards the LZ. Damn near made it too! We were all soooo lucky to get to jump that Carvair at WFFC. On May 30, 2007 the only other airworthy Carvair crashed in AK, on its first revenue flight after a total rebuild. It encountered a downdraft on approach to the mining company airfield at Nixon Fork and undershot into some rocks. It ended up in pieces but miraculously the crew all survived. http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20070530-0 http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.oldwings.nl/content/n898at/wing_sm.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.oldwings.nl/content/n898at/n898at.htm&usg=__SeFs63dgg-NPvm4e32s5FV_kbTY=&h=188&w=250&sz=11&hl=en&start=15&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=fYf5Jm5Z3-Q0HM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcarvair%2Bcrash%2Bat%2Bnixon%2Bfork%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1T4GGLL_enUS351US351%26tbs%3Disch:1 Fat Annie, the WFFC Carvair, remains inactive at Sherman TX. I was hoping it would see some flying doing relief work into Haiti, but I think she is still sitting dormant. Rumors are that the operator who lost the other Cravair in AK wants to buy Fat Annie and bring her to AK, That's where our C 54G from WFFC 1999 (or was it 2000?) went. A Carvair is a modified C54/DC 4. There is a dormant Carvair in South Africa is good shape and maybe it will fly again some day. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/576/MG_1888m_800_copy.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php%3Fp%3D309644%26sid%3D8d4effd783d6864033f7603ad119070e&usg=__NSv1S-yFq_CJSUof09lX7aXwm_Y=&h=533&w=800&sz=363&hl=en&start=4&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=zmnIGrHSgao3CM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcarvair%2Bsouth%2Bafrica%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGLL_enUS351US351%26tbs%3Disch:1 I love jumping from old propliners. The Carvair is probably the rarest big radial engined jumpship I'll ever log. That C 123K that used to fly jumpers in AZ is owned by Jim Blumenthal who also owned and piloted the C 54G that came to Quincy and is now in AK. Jim told me that the C 123 makes good money hauling test drop loads for military contractors. He just can't make that kind of money hauling skydivers. If he uses the aux turbojets to supplement the R 2800 radial engines, the fuel burn goes sky high on the C 123. He got into a big hassle with his insurors over the use of his C 54 for jumping at Quincy and I doubt if he will haul sport jumpers again. If you want to see a lot of C 123 footage rent the movie Con Air. I think the movie Air America had quite a bit of C 123 footage as well. Can you tell I like old propliners? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

If egos were parachutes we'd all have REALLY low wing loading numbers. Swooping would be impossible. Back in the day, carrying a rig into an airline boarding area was guaranteed to get women interested. Now it's just a trouble magnet. I ALWAYS bag my rig when carrying on. Q: "whats in the bag?" A: "Sport aviation gear" 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Not really. I just go to McDonalds. For every $5.99 meal I buy I get $5.99 back when I hand over $6.00. I use Field Effects to! $5.99 McD meals? Whuffo! Skydivers never depart from the dollar menu. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Good post Georger, got me laughing. You seem to have mellowed since the Snowmman departed... or is there another reason for your good humor? HF propagation has been steadily improving G. Snag any gd dx lately? 73 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Last August I went to Spain to make few jumps following our week of opening the EAA Oshkosh airshow...I was on the aircraft in first class, editing some free-fall video I took during some of the performances when the guy sitting next to me pulls out HIS laptop and shows me some video of the same jump he'd taken from the ground! ...and yeah, we traded vids! First Class??? How many jumpers fly First Class? Not this one. Did you mention First Class just to make us feel bad? The only big airliner I've ever been seated up front on was the Perris DC 9-21 at WFFC. Actually, Twardo married a hot airshow acro pilot who now flies big Boeings for an international airline. Bet that SOB rode up front for free. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.