GQ_jumper

I'll be in town but unfortanately won't be able to make it to the meet. i'd be more than happy to grab some beer with anyone afterwards though!! History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

It's been a few months since I put a stopwatch on myself, but I'd guess I'm in the mid to high 5 minute range History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

You said they're brainwashed, you said they're dummies. Quote Well I R, didunt u no dat? after 7 years in the military i can't even pee without someone telling me what to do, BTW can you tell me to go pee now please, cause I really have to go but nobody has told me to yet History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

I have met with USPA representatives several times, officially and unofficially, with and without Larry Hill, beginning in 2001 when Alan Metni joined to help at a meeting in Eloy.Quote Speaking of finding a person to put in charge of competitions.......hmmm, maybe the person I'm replying to or a certain person who is known for putting legal smarts to work in competition History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

And I said they were 18 YO dummies as I was, which I stand by. Kerry said the essence of if you don;t go to college, you might go to the military. If we took the IQ from the avergae soldier and that of the average 2nd year college student, I wonder who would register a higher score? I love the troops, if we ever engage in a neccessary war or police action, we will need them.Quote So from your post I take it that in your opinions soldiers are for the most part equivalant to Forrest Gump? We're a bunch of big strong loveable retards right? Don't worry about the fact that it is now common place among soldiers to be taking college courses in our spare time, which makes us.......come on you know the answer to this. College students, the ones that you said we are all stupider than. Most soldiers that choose the military over college don't choose it because they aren't smart enoguh, instead choose it because they don't have a rich mommy and daddy to pay for it. the funny part is you say college students could be seen as much smarter than soldiers, in what terms. If you are looking for what someone may call being simply "book smart" then you may be correct, but as for having life experience, which brings maturity, and IMO does a lot more for a persons intellect than sitting in some classroom listening to a professor who has never seen the world outside his classroom, a soldier is far beyond your typical college student. If you really want some good stats how's this, everyone on my team has some college education, we were all excellent students in high school, personally I graduated with distinct honors and could've gotten into just about any school I wanted. Just about everyone on my team is pursuing some type of degree in our spare time. But what would I know, I'm just an idiot who know's nothing but killing and doing what people tell me. So I gess ill jus go bak to wurk now and mak pretty tings wif my safeti sissors and kunstrukshun papr kuz i r 2 dum ta go to da skewl. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

All the macho Billy Bobs comparing bullet speed and weight vs. choke patterns~~and drywall resiliency.Quote You knock everyone in this forum that's made a suggestion as to what would help the original poster, and then talk as if you are better trained and tougher than every one of them. You know more than anyone ese in these forums why? And as for your bird shot from a 20 ga. suggestion, I've tested shot patterns and penetration of bird shot at ranges closer than 7 yards with a 12 ga. and found it to be basically useless against anything but, well.......birds. Especially if your intruder is on something that would get them amped up and keep them from feeling the pain of a bird shot. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

It would be interesting to shoot one through a chronograph to see what kind of velocity you got with that short of a barrel. It would probably convince you to go with a longer barrel. Quote With a 5.56 round the lower velocity achieved with a shorter barrel would actually be a good thing unless you intend to take it out to a longer range. it's well known that 5.56 overpenetrates and doesn't cause enough damage, a slower round would be great especially if working with standard ball ammo. As for effectiveness out further with the short barrels, bringing the range your zero is dialed in for from 300 to 250 is no biggie, and most shots in combat are 250 or less anyways, you want to go out further that's why you have a designated LR shooter on the team we also have barrels shorter than 10.5, I think the shortest I've ever seen was a 7.5, i don't like the way they feel that short though. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Yes, shorter barrel also decreases velocity. I have read numerous debates on the .223 in CQB situations using short barrels, and all I've really gathered is its a toss up. A debate which neither side will ever seem to convince the other side. Quote Maybe i can help you on that one a bit, and all this information is coming from actual combat application, not any tests in some lab with ballistic jelly and computers. A 77Gr. .223 round is more than adequate regardless of barrel length in a CQB environment. I'd be more than happy to post pics for you if it wasn't for the fact that this is SC and it would immedeatly turn this into a conversation about how we're no better than the terrorists for posting pics which would morph itself into whether or not there were WMD's in Iraq followed by North Korea and how they are more of a danger than the Canadian moose knuckle league because we have faulty intelligence on Canada proving that Bush lied to the nation about whether he has a GE or Kenmore washer and dryer because it matters so much because GE dryers are quickly exterminating the worlds fish population But apart from that we have proven in countless "tests"(firefights) that the shorties work great, I'm actually ordering one for my m4 before I go back over in a few months, it will be one of the new ones with a gas tappet operating system similar to the one that HK is putting out soon. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

It looks like Denver and Ind. are going to meet again in the post season, last sunday was Denver's best game so far this season, Plummer finally pulled his head out of his ass and played like he meant it and the team finally realized the full potential of Mike Bell, it almost reminded me of Terrell Davis a few years back. I think their next matchup is going to be even better than this one was. Overall i think both teams were perfectly evenly matched, either team could've taken it, Ind. just happened to have the ball at the right time to take the field goal without giving Denver enough time to answer, had denver had the ball for the last drive of the 4th quarter they probably would've taken it. As for their next matchup, well Denver's defensive line only keeps getting quicker against the running game and Champ Bailey is the ultimate weapon against a passing offense. I think it's going to once again hinge on Jake the snake, when he wants to be he's as much of a clutch player as they come, but when he's off, well you've all seen it. If he doesn't keep his performance up throughout the season though Cutler is next up and a few commentators have already named him the next John Elway, we'll see. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Not a big fan of pistols as they are not accurate even under the best of circumstances unless you practice regularly (combat shooting not target). Unless you are a police officer, military (in some capacity that trains you for close quarter fighting), you may find that a pistol is surprisingly inaccurate when your heart is racing, hands shaking, and you are generally shitting your pants in fear. As a backup for a point blank scenario it would be fine but I would go for the shotgun first. In fairness I do not have that kind of training so I may be projecting my own limitations on you. Agreed, and don't ever underestimate the usefulness of taking an unloaded wepaon and spending an hour flipping the safety with your eyes closed and cycling the weapon. If you have to look to find a switch or button, you've taken your eyes off the threat which means he now has freedom of movment. On the penetration issue, go to Home Depot and buy a solid core door(or whatever type of door you have in your house) and a couple sheets of sheet rock and shoot them at different ranges to see how it affects the shot group/penetration. My team was playing with some no.9 bird shot one time looking at shot patterns and were amazed at how quickly its ability to penetrate even a hollow core door dissipated at 10 meters. We check penetration on everything, we've seen how effective it would be to try and put rounds through walls, car doors(yes a few of them were rental cars) gas-tanks, and no they don't explode like in the movies. There's no better way to find out then to really do it. As for theRemington 870, I'm about to buy me one too, love em, reliable and easy to operate, not to mention a sturdy barrell, so if you wanted to say put it up t a door to gain entry or put a round through the intruder on the other side you won't risk blowing out the barrel History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Is this Speakers' Corner? Is the Pope Catholic? Quote Does a one legged duck swim in a circle? to reply to what someone sadi though, yes the environment adapts to changing conditions and so does the ecosystem, but a change that drastic in half a century, no i don't believe so History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Then he took out the magazines and pulled them apart to see which round got the most penetration. Quote One thing about rounds with more penetration is that they do less damage when they pass through a body. You can put 7 rounds of 5.56 Ball into a mans stomach and he can keep on fighting because it passes through too easily. Like I mentioned though the 9MM with the right ammo is usually the perfect combo History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

I agree with Rehmwa on the 20 GA not being enough, yes a 20 could put someone down with the right type of round but why risk it, a 12 is the way to go. As for looking for a semi auto over a pump, well if you're trained on the pump you can get your shots off pretty damn quick, and even with the semi how quick do you think you can reaquire yur sight picture to get off that second shot, again unless you're a fairly well trained shooter probably about at the same speed as the pump, and when it comes to dealing with a malfunction, a pump is just easier on the immedeate action part. As for ammo, 00 buck will do the job very well, there's really no need for a slug if you're going to be sing it at the ranges that you would be in a house, take some of that ammo and a piece of plywood and shoot it at different ranges with the 00 and look at the shot patterns, you'll see that the buckshot is still quite effective at decent ranges(for a shotgun). Also Rehm mentioned the 870, I agree again, and I'd recommend Remington, steer clear of Mossberg shotguns, I have issues with them after we blew out some of their barrels using them as breeching shotguns. You also mentioned pistols, one thing to think about when looking for a pistol for home defense, if youre at the close range you will be in a house and are shooting at a target the size of a person you don't need any fancy match pistol, who cares if the trigger isn't set to get you a 2 inch shot group at 5 meters. Pretty much any pistol in terms of accuracy will suffice in a house. Look for one thing, ease of operation, when you get into a tense life or death situation finite motor skills go to shit and you can't think straight, so get the easiest operating pistol you can find. In terms of ease of use, you may want to steer clear of a 1911 unless you have A LOT of time to dedicate to familiarizing yourself with the operation of the pistol, you may think to yourself "all I have to do if it misfires is pull the slide back and cycle the next round" while you're sitting at the PC but when you're in the mix and things are happening fast you'll fumble with it, I've put hundreds of thousands of round down range and still everyonce in a while find myself stutter steppin when it comes to immedeate action, and this is in a training environment not in real combat. Although its far from being my favorite pistol, a Glock is very asy to manipulate, and there are a few other similar pistols out there that are just as simple. The laser sight, yeah great thing to have if you don't have a lot of time to dedicate to becoming a well trained marskman, great for instinctive shooting, but remember one thing with that, if you can see the laser, so can he. If you are moving towards a corner and the intruder is around it watching your laser on the wall he knows exactly where you are but you don't kno where he is, if you're going to go that route think about getting a pressure pad on the grip so you can just squeeze the grip and make it come on whenit's time to make the shot, back to the shotgun real quick you can also get taclites for the stock with pressure switches, taclites are great in dark houses, jsut remember if you are moving through a house with it on you are broadcasting your location. One last thingon the pistol, you said your girlfriend may need to use it, so you may want to look at a 9MM if she's not comfortable with a .45. Poeple are always saying a 9MM won't do the trick when it comes to putting someone down, and we have proved that to be true in Iraq, but that is with standard 9MM ball ammo. If youget the right kind of ammo such as hydra shock you will have more than enough stopping power, 9MM's are easy to control and a lot of people like the lighter weapon so why not go with that with a better ammo. Just a couple things to think about, the big things are always ease of operation, reliability, and simplicity when it comes to fixing malfunctions. Trust me no matter how comfortable you think you are with a weapon it all goes to shit the first time someone points one back at you(trust me, I've been there) and you don't want to be fumbling with a safety selector when that time comes. It also never hurts to sit there and do dry fire drills with them to get used to the operation. good luck History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We need to get a week night outing together again and either have dinner before or after flight time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- YES! That would be great! Eating AND tunnel time . . . doesn't get much better than that. (Case in point: Yet another good reason to do adult league.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- what about eating in the tunnel? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Only if it's possible to do in conjunction with some RW--a point for every bite of food out of someone else's hands, for example. But we digress. . . . Quote no no no, you've got it all wrong, you put on your fullface and tighten the strap so nothing can fall out then open the visor and pour a couple bags of skittles in there, then shut the visor, then every time you take a knee to the face the skittles will bounce around and you try and catch them in your mouth, it's just like playing hungry hungry hippos, that board game from when we were kids. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

I'm not trying to knock people who aren't in the best shape, but they have no place in a job where lack of physical ability can cost ANOTHER PERSON their life. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Why would they maintain a professional appearance if they can't be treated in a professional manner? Quote Because those who maintain a professional appearance are treated as such. When you are in a job where your physical ability and appearance have such a large affect on your ability to do your job, not only that but affects how the public views not only just you but your colleagues as well then it is very understandable why someone wouldn't be treated professionally if they don't maintain the standard. In my unit people who can't pass a fitness test or height and weight standards are dealt with accordingly, they are either put out of Special Forces or the Army completely, and when they are being put out do you think they are treated with the same respect as the operators who take the extra time to go to the gym every day, absolutely not. I wouldnt' want to serve next to someone who is too fat and out of shape to carry my ass out of a fight if I go down. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

I think the issue was him calling them "jellybellies." From what I can tell, no one had a problem with the content of the memo. Quote I'm pretty sure you are right on that Bill, but regardless of the wording it is still bullsh*t IMO, if they can't maintain a professional appearance than why should they be treated in a professional manner. This touchy feely feel good shit has gone too far, crap like this is why my P.O.S. fat@ss roommate is still in Special Forces and not flipping burgers where he belongs, it pisses me off that we can't "call it like we see it" without getting in trouble. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

I'm sitting in the office with the news playing and they are telling a story about a Police Chief who was fired for sending out a memo to all the Officers under him urging them to get in shape so they can better serve as an officer. He said that he decided to do this after looking around the office and seeing himself surrounded by overweight Police Officers. I forgot that in this feel good world you aren't allowed to tell someone that they aren't in good enough physical shape to do their job, instead you have to tell them how wonderful they are and that they are beatiful on the inside. This is bullsh*t History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

We all miss you Josh, good luck up there History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Is it all in my mind? If not, how many points in an average 10 round draw is the nice thicker air worth to you guys? Quote I've noticed this too, I feel like I have more power when I'm jumping down at Perris than when I'm exiting just under 18K MSL in colorado. So maybe it's not just you bein crazy in the head History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

I'll vouch for that. GQ_jumper helped me out immensely at the now infamous Dublin Saint Patrick's Day Boogie last year. It's always nice to find others who share a love for 4-way.Quote holy crap I thought you had disapeared!!! it was a blast jumping with you, we'll definitely have to do it again when you get back. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

If you are all about the zipper and getting a mirror, or double slot switcher, you could quite simply have a zipper-zipper, similar to a 5 move. Quote I'd prefer not to have another block 5 type move in their, I like 5 but there's really no point in having 2 blocks almost identical. I just wish I could have more slot switchers when I'm working on the back piece and another fun BIG move like the tail's move on 10 would kick ass, just wishful thinking. As for zipper, I just think it would be a better random than star, just my opinion though. History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

How about another double slot switcher, we need more of those(especially now that i'm flying on the back piece a lot more). I think as well as a new block 12 we need to replace M with a zipper History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

It makes me sad to think that there aren't many out there that do this anyore. Then you two restored my faith in skydivers remembering the help they got when they were 'young' and passing it on to others. It's one of the things I really love about our community and there are probably lots more out there who think this way than I thought! Quote there's a few of us lurking around History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

we did the same thing at the 10 way meet in perris, launched a small piece out the door to keep our base tight and had them drop grips and rebuild. 10 way is fun as long as you don't mind getting slammed around a bit, which apparently one of my teammates did cause he complained abou me pushing against him while he was in the door History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower