steve1

If I can use the "R" word one more time.....I'd just like to say that a person doesn't have to be religious to forgive. I spent most of my life hating my Dad, because of what he was....a drunk. I used to hate the word forgiveness, because I couldn't do that. I wasn't anywhere close to being ready for that. My wife used to say things like, "It couldn't have been any other way," when we talked about the evil things my father did. That would infuriate me even further, because I assumed he didn't have to be that way. Then, after years of keeping all that anger and depression locked up inside, I began to look at my Dad's childhood.... He was born in a tar paper shack, and almost died that first month of life. He went to school as a 1st grader, without shoes....His mother was killed when he was young, and his Dad didn't want him. He was passed from relative to relative who didn't want him either. When he was old enough he started drinking. Alcohol took some of his pain away. Is there any wonder he was a drunk. Empathy work such as this, can cause a person to look at things in a different light. That is what I needed to do to finally let that anger go. If anyone had talked to me about forgiveness five years ago, I would have bitten their head off. Forgiving him was exactly what I needed to do to recover. I didn't do it so much for him, as for myself.... Forgiveness is a waste of time though, until a person is ready. It may take years and years before a person is ready for that. Forgiveness should come at the end of the recovery process not the beginning. A person needs to get angry and feel the hurt they have experienced in therapy, before forgiveness is possible. There are a lot of opinions on this. This is what the recovery process was like for me.....I hope this story helps someone else.

It is perfectly okay to decide that someone is too toxic to be in your life. Mark obviously regrets having to cut someone out of his life and cause that kind of pain to someone, but sometimes it's necessary for your own health when someone refuses to get help. Sometimes part of acknowledging that you can't control someone else's actions is acknowledging that you don't have to stand around and watch and let them hurt you either. ....................................................... Well said!

So much for forgivness. This is spoken like a true hypocritical born again Christian. pffffff what a joke. . I don't see anything hipocritical in these statements. If a person is hurt badly enough, how are they supposed to feel. It may take years to let go of that anger. Religion may not play a role in that....

Some of the most angry people I know have grown up in an alcoholic home. I'm 60 years old, and still suffer from the affects of an abusive alcoholic father. Therapy can help, if you can find the right therapist. I honestly feel that I got more out of self help books than anything else. Medication may be another option. People used to talk to me about forgiveness. To me forgiveness was the "F" word. It wasn't that I didn't want to forgive, but that I couldn't. It took me twenty years of hating my old man, before I could really grasp that concept. Finally when he was on this death bed, I was able to let all that anger go. He was unable to talk, but I could see in his eyes, that maybe he was sorry for the past. If a person has remorse, it is a lot easier to forgive. Without that it is really hard. When I was finally able to let all that hurt and anger go, it was a like a great load had been lifted off my shoulders. I truly believe that forgiving is not for the perpetrator. It is for the victim. It may take years and years before you can come to the point where you are ready to forgive. It's up to you, if you decide to forgive someday. You'll do that when you are ready....not before. Anger and hurt, in therapy, is part of the recovery process. Forgiving is not forgetting what happened. It may not mean reconcilliation. If a person is toxic enough you may need to distance yourself and your family from that person. I did that for several years. I didn't want my father to hurt my kids. I told him to stay away. Later I told him that I would be around him only if he wasn't drinking. You may need to set firm boundaries.... I could write a lot more on this. Maybe this is enough for now....

Probably the best way to predict a person's future behavior is to look at their past behavior. If they have a history of violence that is who I would worry about with a gun.... We already have laws prohibiting many criminals from owning firearms. In many places this is not enforced, though. I know of two convicted felons who have gone to prison for violent crimes. Both of them own rifles and hunt each fall. Maybe we need to enforce the laws we already have on the books, and forget about inventing new ones....

I can assure you that getting shot really does not feel so good. My wifes brother was shot by the police. He said all he felt was heat....That's what I tell my kids, when we go hunting.

Any therapist is already obligated by law to report anyone who might be a threat to others. That ruling is already in place. There needs to be confidentiality in Mental Health work or noone will come in for help.... There are all types of mental illness. Some do not pose a threat to anyone. I wonder how many alcoholics for example, have mental illness. Should they too be banned from owning a gun too. Another problem, is that it is not always easy to diagnose if a person truly is a threat. It isn't like you can go in and get a quick scan for say a broken leg. The human brain is much more complicated than that. I see Mental Health professionals who come up with the wrong diagnosis all the time. Should every gun owner be mandated to obtain a year's worth of therapy, and then let some ding dong therapist decide whether this client is safe to own a gun. I think not! We already have enough feel good laws on the books....

I suspected that might be the problem. I took the scope off. With open sights it wouldn't group any better. The sights are awful on it, but I don't think that was the big issue with accuracy. Let me know, if you hear of a good pellet gun for a decent price. I might mention the trigger was awful on the gun too. I guess I'm going to have to lay out some cash if I expect to get a decent pellet gun.....

Law enforcement are very aware of what could happen if someone is allowed too close to them. Their weapon might even be taken away,( if a perp is allowed too close). That is why, if a bad guy keeps advancing)....they will often be fired upon. They are warned to stop, if they won't, they could get a bullet in the vitals.... I saw some footage once, of a guy who was shouting at a police officer. The policeman shouted back, at the top of his lungs, telling the guy to "STOP". The other guy was unarmed, but he kept walking toward the police officer....He was shot and killed. The policeman was never prosecuted. He did as he was trained... A knife may be good in close, but would be worthless further out. I'd rather have a gun...

I own a closet full of guns. I think the only one that will not fire when it is dropped is an automatic pistol. On that particular pistol, the safety blocks the hammer from striking the firing pin. For most guns, it is important not to carry a round in the chamber, if you might fall or drop your weapon. A dropped gun kills people all the time. I am currently counseling a boy, whose Dad fell on the ice, dropping his hunting rifle. He was shot in the side and bled to death. That was about a month ago. He was bringing his rifle in the house after hunting....He had forgot a bullet in the chamber. I went to college with another guy who kept an automatic pistol on his head board. It was cocked and locked. His cat nocked it off the headboard. He was shot through the head and died. Another friend was duck hunting. He had his 12 guage leaning against a tree. It was on safety with a shell in the chamber. His dog knocked it over. He was shot in the chest and survived. When I teach gun safety to kids, I tell all these scary story. I make sure they know that a gun can fire, even though it is on safe. Maybe that isn't true for some guns, but for most guns, I think it is....(if there is a bullet in the chamber)....

A 16 way was "big doings" back in the early 70's. Most of us would have given a lot to be in one. The closest we ever came was a 15 way in about 75 or so. B.J. Worth was on the load. A couple of Jerry Bird's team mates (from Jerry Bird's All Stars) stopped by to jump. Most of us were just local yocals. We were in awe of these California jumpers, and one of them organized the load. They were just passing through town. We rented a D.C. three from the Smoke Jumpers. The star built to 15 before it blew up. That was a new state record for Montana. We were all proud of ourselves. But we still never earned our 16 way patch...."What a bummer!" I would have loved to have sewn that thing on my jump suit, next to my SCS and SCR....

I've shot and shot this Beeman, $100., Walmart, airgun. I've come to the conclusion that this rifle is a piece of junk. It is very very inaccurate. I tried both barrels on it. They both shoot like crap. You can get an acceptable group going and it will then start shooting way off. I took the scope off, and tried the open sights. It won't shoot any better that way. In fact the plastic front sight is almost invisible. I guess you get what you pay for. I hate to lay out $300. bucks or more, for just a pellet gun. So, my plan now is to use one of my 22's on those pesky gophers and rabbits that are invading my place. If you know of a good air gun that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, let me know. I may still be interested....

If you'll be working for the V.A. maybe you can get them to send me some hearing aides. So far they've been giving me the run around. I wonder if I'll be ugly with hearing aides? I always thought of myself as a good looking old fart! Maybe I can grow my hair long to cover them up.

It sounds like you need a new part, (if the ejector is bent). A good gunsmith can work magic on a damaged gun. But there are a lot of people out there who pretend to be gunsmiths. Some are gunsmiths but they do lousy work. So, it's worth looking for the right gunsmith. I took two rifles to a so called gun smith. One wouldn't feed right. The other had firing pin problems. I paid the guy quite a bit of cash to fix both problems. I got home and both guns still weren't fixed. I figured out what the problem was on both rifles myself..... I took another rifle to have iron sights put on (to another gunsmith). The back sight was set too far to one side. It wasn't in proper alignment. I was able to get it sighted in, only by setting the windage way to one side. I mailed off several trigger mechanisms recently, to get them adjusted. They came back just about perfect. So, I know there are good gunsmiths out there, but they may be hard to find....

Clint.....You don't look a day over 59. Maybe that bad wreck you took made you look older....I really am 60.... How'd we get so old so quick??

Thats my home dz steve kelly is my dad Kurt, Say hello to your dad for me. I plan get up that way, this spring. I don't have a pass-port yet. Is that much of a hassle? Do you know of any good riggers. My reserve needs a repack....

Thanks Dennis for the history on this. Does anyone do style these days? It was a big event back in the 70's.....I took a long lay off. When I came back it was all but gone....

It was a different world back then.... It was common to have an anti-establishment attitude during the 70's. Many jumpers quit logging jumps. Authority was sometimes looked upon, with suspect. Maybe Vietnam had something to do with all that. I had like the shortest hair in our club. I was the only redneck there. We were all jumpers and that was really all that mattered. The USPA didn't mean much to lot's of jumpers. I quit logging jumps for a while too. I always regretted that. I never had a license back then either. I figured I didn't need one. I remember one load when we had been drinking pitchers all afternoon. Then we headed out to the airport to jump. It was fun to be young and bulletproof. I'm lucky to still be here telling stories.....

There were once two jump clubs, on the same airport, at Laurel. Jeff Schlaubs (probably mispelled) moved one of the clubs to Bozeman. That club may, or may not be in operation, right now. They were using Robby Buckles airplane. Robby is gone most of the time, flying airliners, but you might call him too, in Bozeman. Or you can drive to Lost Prairie, near kalispell. Ronan is another good place to jump. Call Skydive Montana, and ask for Hod, in Missoula. Or you can jump at the Hamilton Airport, south of Missoula. That's about all there is for jumping in Montana. I miss the D.Z.s at Laurel. Rising insurance rates forced skydiving off that airport.... If you head north there is a great dropzone at Moosejaw. You can also check with skydive North Dakota at Minot..... I know that would be a long ways to go, for you....

I'll have to try that Ely 22 ammo. A buddy of mine tries different factory ammo till he finds the most accurate stuff. I enjoy shooting 22's about as much as any other gun. I have a couple long barrelled, bolt action, 22's, that are a joy to shoot. With the right ammo they would be even more fun. When we were kids, we made the progression from BB gun, to pellet gun, to 22's. I can't tell you all the fun we had shooting gophers back in the day with our trusty 22's. That was about the funnest thing that we could think of, was a day spent plinking at gophers. Prairie dogs are even more fun.... Now that I'm an old fart, I have a hard time killing anything. I figure if I can't eat it, I won't shoot it. I'm just no fun any more! Maybe I'll have to settle for shooting targets. I did kill an elk, and a deer last fall, so I guess I'm not all washed up as a hunter....

And again you're blaming the gun. Did you ever have them establish that THEY can shoot five rounds under an inch? That is simply unacceptable for a long gun. We shoot slugs and poly-shok rounds out of a smooth bore gun with only a bead sight (not even any decent iron sights) and we print clover leafs. That's with Remington 870s using 19 inch barrel and no custom gunsmithing. Any gun that shoots like that should go back to the manufacturer with a "WTF" tag on it. ................................................................... You do have some good points here. The average Joe probably can't shoot one inch groups. With some coaching on proper bench rest technique, they can usually shoot quite well. I've shot slugs out of shotguns some, but I've never really tested them. If they will shoot cloverleafs at a 100yards with nothing more than a bead for sights, it amazes me. I didn't think shotguns shot that well. But like I said I've never tested shotguns much. I have shot high power rifles a lot off of a bench. Many do indeed shoot three inch groups, or bigger, particularly when factory ammo is used. I don't really know that much about match ammo. It is produced in a factory, but I would think under much more exacting standards than most factory ammo. That would result in improved accuracy. With handloading you can work up a load that your rifle likes. You could shoot that same ammo in an identical rifle and it may not shoot well. I start out with light loads, and watch for pressure signs as I work up a load to higher veloscities. I try different powders, bullets, primers, brass, etc. until I find the combination that shoots the best. Probably the biggest trick, that greatly affects accuracy, is loading the bullet out until it almost touches the lands. I weigh every charge and use exacting standards. You'd be amazed at the difference this can make. With factory ammo or even match ammo, you can't do this. Some people search for factory ammunition that shoots well in their rifle. That is okay, but you still can't get the bullet loaded out to almost touch the lands. Loading your bullets out, like that, can cause some problems though. Some magazines are too short for that. It is also easy to load them a tad too long. This increases pressure, and they may not even chamber if they are too long. I had a beautiful Winchester model 70 in 300 Winchester. It had a claw extractor. It was perfect in every way. The best that it would shoot with that gun was about 2 1/2 inches. No matter what trick I used, it wouldn't shoot. I traded it off. Anyhow, this is just some of the ramblings of an old hunter, reloader. None of this is written in stone.....

I took about a ten year lay off once. I then went to Ted Mayfield's place in Sheridan to make a jump. No log books, no nothing. I told Ted that I had jumped there years earlier, and that I knew Elevator and even B.J. Worth, so Ted let me jump.... I rented a paracommander in a B-12 container. Somebody gave me a belly wart with one of those big "ole" altimeters out of an airplane. I asked where I should wait, and the lady said, over there where those guys are dirt diving. I thought for a moment, and then asked, "What the hell is dirt diving?" Everybody gave me a mad look about then. After all nobody used those words back in the 70's. This lady had patience with me, and finally I wandered over there with all my rented equipment on. I watched these guys dirt dive. They were grabbing each other here and there, then spinning circles and trying even more grips. I thought, "Who do they think they are kidding....Even Jerry Bird couldn't turn that many moves in a skydive." In the 70's we were sometimes just lucky to get a four way together. Exits were often spread out all over the sky. I guess that shows how much the sport had progressed in just ten years. That was back in 85 or so. And yes, I did get ribbed about the big ole altimeter and dash board (as I was sitting in the Beech). I tried to explain that even in the 70's, I never had a piece of junk like that....But it did work fine. Showing up, to get on a load, with outdated equipment, is a great way to get attention!

I talk to a lot of people who claim that Old Betsy is a good shooter. When I ask them what kind of groups they can shoot, most say within an inch at a hundred yards. When I ask them what kind of ammo, they usually say Factory ammo. When we go out to shoot, I often bring along a benchrest and sandbags. Most of my friends quickly find that their groups are a lot bigger than they thought. In other words "Old Betsy" doesn't shoot even close to an inch.... I've had some rifles, that even with a lot of work, won't shoot much better than three inches at a hundred yards. I usually trade them off and get another rifle to tinker with. I wonder about military snipers. I assume they shoot match ammo. This would probably shoot better than factory ammo. That ammo isn't matched to their individual rifle though. They could probably shoot tighter groups if the right load was found for their individual rifle. But all that is probably impossible in combat situations. I doubt if combat snipers, can hand load a pet load.... When a sniper is resupplied with ammo, they probably just shoot the match ammo they are given. Many snipers can still hit a target out to 1,000 meters....That kind of accuracy is fascinating to me.... I'd like to go to sniper school just to learn what I could about shooting. Their are a ton of variables to consider with that type of shooting....

I'm not a huge fan of long range shooting for hunting. It is too easy to wound something. There are times when a long shot is needed though. I wrote earlier about a time when someone else wounded an antelope by shooting off a leg. Actually it was dangling. It was a good 500 yds. away when it stopped hopping on three legs. It was getting away and would have died a miserable death. I layed down, quickly estimated the range. I aimed the appropriate distance above it's back and killed it with one shot. Normally I won't shoot beyond 400 yards, but that time a 500 yard shot was needed. I doubt if most hunters could have hit that antelope, even with an entire box of shells. With the right rifle and practice you can extend your effective range way out there. I think hunting is something that should require stalking closer. Hunting to me isn't much fun without that. There is nothing wrong with using a rifle that has a poor trajectory or may not even be that accurate, as long as you know the limits of your weapon and your own limits as a shooter. I know one guy who shoots a big bull elk with nothing more than a 30/30 saddle gun, with iron sights. He kills a big bull almost every year. He does that by stalking closer. "Bully for him." He seldom wounds anything. He's just a good hunter. Same with bow hunting. I don't think bowhunting was supposed to be easy. Many condemn anyone who hunts with traditional gear. As long as they only take shots that are within their limits, I think this is fine. You don't have to have a bow that shoots as flat as a rifle, to bow hunt. But then again, you may be handicapping yourself a lot, by using an inaccurate rifle, with iron sights. If you hunt flat open country, you may need to shoot well over a hundred yards, most of the time. But like I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with making up for that with hunting skill and getting closer....Just my two cents worth!

I appreciate the input on this. I guess I disagree on a thing or two, but that's what these forums are for. I think it is very possible to do your own work on a factory rifle and get outstanding results. Five shots in a half inch (at a hundred) is extreme accuracy in about anybody's book. Some of my rifles shoot that well. No they aren't probably up to Wimbledon Cup standards, but I don't think they are too far behind. I usually float the barrels, glass bed the actions, have the triggers adjusted, mount a quality Leupold scope. My handloads are matched to each rifle. Group size will often go from three inches at a hundred yards down to 1/2 inch. That is five shot groups. I have a 22/250 that will even shoot better than that. And these aren't tricked out target rifles. I use them for hunting, and occaisional target shooting. I imagine a gun with a huge scope, heavy barrel, target turrets, and a few other bells and whistles might only be good for target use though. None of my rifles are like that. I also think it is possible to shoot better than the rifle itself. I've seen a lot of factory rifles, with factory ammo, that just don't shoot well at all. They would be almost useless for even a 300 yard shot. So, maybe I better get off my soap box, before I put my foot in my mouth, if I haven't done that already....